1500 hours for ATP to fly 1st Officer

At what stage of a career and cost of training?
weilke said:
30k with bennies and some sort of advancement path is a better deal than being the on-call lackey for someone at 40k.
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In the simplistic view of somebody who sees those as the only possible choices and tilts the outcomes to match his perceptions, that might be true.

In the real world the nice airplanes you see at airports all over the world (assuming you bother to look) aren't owned by the regional seniority numbers or the Dilberts, but by people who figured out how to make a decent buck and fly when and where they want to go.

Art VanDelay said:
You know what Wayne - the world needs Dilberts and cubicle slaves and if that's what makes them happy I say fine. But there are just as many sad stories in that world too. Think World Comm, think Enron, think Wall Street. The only gaurantee in this life is death. Do you want to live or sit in a cubicle with a crappy little picture of a Bonanza tacked up on the wall to remind you there's a world out there ? Pretty FREAKING sad all for the ILLUSION of security.
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Art VanDelay said:
You know what Wayne - the world needs Dilberts and cubicle slaves and if that's what makes them happy I say fine. But there are just as many sad stories in that world too. Think World Comm, think Enron, think Wall Street. The only gaurantee in this life is death. Do you want to live or sit in a cubicle with a crappy little picture of a Bonanza tacked up on the wall to remind you there's a world out there ? Pretty FREAKING sad all for the ILLUSION of security.
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Have you built a company? Created something from nothing? There is a lot more to sitting in an office than your description implies. You can control your destiny, create jobs, and leave a legacy. For some of us that is very rewarding. More rewarding than being a number on a list of pilots who do nothing other then take something from A to B.
 
wabower said:
At what stage of a career and cost of training?
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Sure, semi-retired and with medical benefits through a spouse, 40k without bennies to do the occasional business trip may be a good gig. For someone young who wants to make aviation a career, it sounds like a dead end.

The first 2-3 years at a regional are an apprenticeship. No different from 'clerking' as a lawyer or being an intern as a doc. To fixate on the '$17,000' paid during year one is rather short sighted.

The entry requirement for a pilots career is the equivalent of an associates degree (albeit a very expensive one). There are other careers with a better ratio of 'education money spent / lifetime income' but none of them comes with a corner office looking down on the clouds from day one.
 
This whole thread is quite comical. A bunch of GA pilots trying to tell airlines how and why they should do something, when they have little to no experience in the field.
 
Exactly, and the change in the cost/benefit ratio is one of the reasons that 91/135 jobs are now more atttractive than 121 jobs to many pilots who have either seen the movie or are reasonably adept at arithmetic.

And it's not an apprenticeship when everything you can achieve (or lose) including the pension and benefits is tied to a single employer. With no foreseeable opportunity for lateral moves when your training is complete, and with no opportunity for lateral moves when the employer merges or files TU, is that a deal you're looking to make?

weilke said:
Sure, semi-retired and with medical benefits through a spouse, 40k without bennies to do the occasional business trip may be a good gig. For someone young who wants to make aviation a career, it sounds like a dead end.

The first 2-3 years at a regional are an apprenticeship. No different from 'clerking' as a lawyer or being an intern as a doc. To fixate on the '$17,000' paid during year one is rather short sighted.

The entry requirement for a pilots career is the equivalent of an associates degree (albeit a very expensive one). There are other careers with a better ratio of 'education money spent / lifetime income' but none of them comes with a corner office looking down on the clouds from day one.
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wabower said:
How old is he? Things are improving for GA jobs, although nothing to write home about.

I actually spent about an hour yesterday discussing what we could do with a Citation Encore recurrent slot that is available as part of a recent acquisition. We got nobody who fits the bill and the chief pilot doesn't want to train a new copilot.
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He is about 30. He's been a cargo pilot for several years flying single pilot 1900's, Metro Liners, Caravan's, etc. all with no AP, basic avionics, etc. in MI and ND winters. He just came back to Dallas to fly KA's. He really wants/needs to find a jet job to advance his career, but at least being a KA captain gives him multi-turbine PIC and gets him out of the cargo game.

Henning said:
$40k is about $23k more than he'd start at with a regional and he wouldn't make that for several more years.
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Yup. He turned down several regionals including the Eagle. As Wayne said the 121 prospects are not what they used to be in terms of the long term picture.
 
The only two things sadder are:

1. that guys who are three years out of ER are still flying for burger-flip money and can't land even a regional job, and

2. that they don't understand the difference between career planning for individuals and comp strategy for carriers.

QUOTE=KSCessnaDriver;1260008]This whole thread is quite comical. A bunch of GA pilots trying to tell airlines how and why they should do something, when they have little to no experience in the field.[/QUOTE]
 
wabower said:
The only two things sadder are:

1. that guys who are three years out of ER are still flying for burger-flip money and can't land even a regional job, and

2. that they don't understand the difference between career planning for individuals and comp strategy for carriers.
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Spoken like someone who has no idea what the heck he's talking about. But go back to peddling used cars or whatever you do that makes you happy.

I make more now that I would have flipping burgers, and that's after taking a 25% paycut out of my last job.
 
Just what I want my grandkids to tell me three years after graduation "Yep, Gramps, it's a hell of a career. After three years I'm only down 25% from my last gig, at which I was working 15 hours a day and sharing a cheap motel room with some other dude."

KSCessnaDriver said:
Spoken like someone who has no idea what the heck he's talking about. But go back to peddling used cars or whatever you do that makes you happy.

I make more now that I would have flipping burgers, and that's after taking a 25% paycut out of my last job.
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Alexb2000 said:
He is about 30. He's been a cargo pilot for several years flying single pilot 1900's, Metro Liners, Caravan's, etc. all with no AP, basic avionics, etc. in MI and ND winters. He just came back to Dallas to fly KA's. He really wants/needs to find a jet job to advance his career, but at least being a KA captain gives him multi-turbine PIC and gets him out of the cargo game.
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My friend who is a charter captain in various jets told me "Whatever you do, never start flying turboprobs. That king air time a few years back is a black mark in my logbook. Once you start flying turboprops, you may get stuck doing that for the rest of your life. See John over there?" (points to older captain stepping out of B200)
 
dell30rb said:
My friend who is a charter captain in various jets told me "Whatever you do, never start flying turboprobs. That king air time a few years back is a black mark in my logbook. Once you start flying turboprops, you may get stuck doing that for the rest of your life. See John over there?" (points to older captain stepping out of B200)
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Don't believe him. Many people start out in King Airs, etc.
 
Don't believe it. Many charter captains don't make jack squat, while many of the experienced guys understand that the King Air and Citation part 91 jobs are the sweet-spot of all flying jobs. Decent pay, good working conditions, decent benefits, home every night and usually for dinner, tickets to ball-games, etc.

When the big-watch Raybans are running their yap about 135 stuff, these guys are smiling quietly in the corner while waiting for BS to subside so they can catch a nap. Stop by sometime and I'll give you the tour.

dell30rb said:
My friend who is a charter captain in various jets told me "Whatever you do, never start flying turboprobs. That king air time a few years back is a black mark in my logbook. Once you start flying turboprops, you may get stuck doing that for the rest of your life. See John over there?" (points to older captain stepping out of B200)
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wabower said:
Just what I want my grandkids to tell me three years after graduation "Yep, Gramps, it's a hell of a career. After three years I'm only down 25% from my last gig, at which I was working 15 hours a day and sharing a cheap motel room with some other dude."
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Again, you have no idea what you're talking about. I went from 320 nights a year in a hotel to home every day. I don't share a room with anyone. But I forgot, you've got to explicitly spell out what's going on for old men, they think they know everything.
 
wabower said:
Yep, like all the 20-somethings you got all the answers.

OOC, will you be trying to cheat your way out of this contract like you did with the last one in order to get a lower seniority number with a regional?
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You want to keep throwing out factually inaccurate statements?
 
wabower said:
Don't believe it. Many charter captains don't make jack squat, while many of the experienced guys understand that the King Air and Citation part 91 jobs are the sweet-spot of all flying jobs. Decent pay, good working conditions, decent benefits, home every night and usually for dinner, tickets to ball-games, etc.

When the big-watch Raybans are running their yap about 135 stuff, these guys are smiling quietly in the corner while waiting for BS to subside so they can catch a nap. Stop by sometime and I'll give you the tour.
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Definitely not the big watch rayban type, more like polite small town guy. He was semi-serious but also making a joke at his friend's expense :)

Hey, one day i'll take you up on the tour
 
Looking for pilots that want to drop everything and time build today. Flying 200 - 250 hours this month to reach the 1500 tt. I have a C182RG with gas looking for another pilot that just wants to fly non-stop no bull.
 
mason968 said:
Looking for pilots that want to drop everything and time build today. Flying 200 - 250 hours this month to reach the 1500 tt. I have a C182RG with gas looking for another pilot that just wants to fly non-stop no bull.
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Why are you looking for another pilot? I could do FT Lauderdale-St Louis-Dallas-Ft Lauderdale departing 17 Oct.
 
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mason968 said:
Looking for pilots that want to drop everything and time build today. Flying 200 - 250 hours this month to reach the 1500 tt. I have a C182RG with gas looking for another pilot that just wants to fly non-stop no bull.
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I'll be pretty surprised if you get through 250 hours in a month without a MX issue shutting you down for at least a week or so.
 
jesse said:
I'll be pretty surprised if you get through 250 hours in a month without a MX issue shutting you down for at least a week or so.
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Not if the only thing really flying is a pen on the logbook.:)

Not in any way pointed at Mason968, but when I see that kind of thing that's the first thing that comes to mind unless someone has a nearly unlimited budget. How many $25K twins has someone claimed to buy and put 1000 trouble free hours on in less than 6 months. Yeah right, sheesh.
 
wabower said:
Don't believe it. Many charter captains don't make jack squat, while many of the experienced guys understand that the King Air and Citation part 91 jobs are the sweet-spot of all flying jobs. Decent pay, good working conditions, decent benefits, home every night and usually for dinner, tickets to ball-games, etc.

When the big-watch Raybans are running their yap about 135 stuff, these guys are smiling quietly in the corner while waiting for BS to subside so they can catch a nap. Stop by sometime and I'll give you the tour.
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^^^^^^^
Truth.
 
mason968 said:
Looking for pilots that want to drop everything and time build today. Flying 200 - 250 hours this month to reach the 1500 tt. I have a C182RG with gas looking for another pilot that just wants to fly non-stop no bull.
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Where?
 
Ron Levy said:
I'm sure you meant 750-1000 hours TT, not 100, but otherwise, your statement is accurate. In the 2006 time frame, with those 300-500-hour new hires, regionals were seeing washout rates of over 50% from hire to IOE completion -- and that barely scratches the surface of the problem. Note that the co-pilot of the Colgan flight had never even seen ice on a plane before the fatal flight, and the Captain had little experience in ice himself. If you look back, neither of them would have qualified at their time of hire under the new rules.
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Icing had NOTHING to do with 3407, and there is no way that any pilot who flys more than a year in the lower 48 above 180 couldn't have seen icing.

They were too busy yapping about BS and didn't add power after adding drag. Its day one pilot skills.
 
wabower said:
Don't believe it. Many charter captains don't make jack squat, while many of the experienced guys understand that the King Air and Citation part 91 jobs are the sweet-spot of all flying jobs. Decent pay, good working conditions, decent benefits, home every night and usually for dinner, tickets to ball-games, etc.

When the big-watch Raybans are running their yap about 135 stuff, these guys are smiling quietly in the corner while waiting for BS to subside so they can catch a nap. Stop by sometime and I'll give you the tour.
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Part 91 jets is the most relaxed, family orientated flying professionally can get. Being a mechanic/pilot makes you wear all the hats, but then again I wear them 90 percent of the time sitting on my couch. I turn the volume down on the tv, take a call and go back to my day.

You haven't flown a jet until you get to fly one solo. Walking out of a jet wearing shorts and a beach shirt, grabbing your SCUBA gear from the baggage and heading to the keys diving while the jet undergoes MX is a hard life to give up. I will hate the day when I actually have to work for a living, because this 91 jet stuff is damn fun.
 
KSCessnaDriver said:
Yes, I missed a "0" and fixed it. Ok, so the Colgan FO had never seen ice. At least she was part of a crew, where there were 2 pilots. I've never seen ice and I'm flying single pilot FIKI equipment. How is that safer?
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Honestly, I never got that argument that she was unsafe because she'd never seen ice (not to mention that Ice had nothing to do with the crash). What the hell did they want her to do, take one of the 172's she was instructing in into known icing just so she could've said she'd dealt with ice? Most professional pilots have their first icing encounters at that first airline or 135 job and most deal with it properly based on their thourough 121 or 135 training program..
 
n20junkie said:
Part 91 jets is the most relaxed, family orientated flying professionally can get. Being a mechanic/pilot makes you wear all the hats, but then again I wear them 90 percent of the time sitting on my couch. I turn the volume down on the tv, take a call and go back to my day.

You haven't flown a jet until you get to fly one solo. Walking out of a jet wearing shorts and a beach shirt, grabbing your SCUBA gear from the baggage and heading to the keys diving while the jet undergoes MX is a hard life to give up. I will hate the day when I actually have to work for a living, because this 91 jet stuff is damn fun.
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No, Part 91 single engine piston is:D. Source: I fly a Part 91 182 for a private owner who happens to be the most easy going guy I've ever worked for.
 
Let me get this straight.


I have no career aspirations at all. But if someday I decide that I want my ATP, just to do it... I have to go do some simulator training $$$$$, before I am allowed to take the checkride?
 
ja_user said:
I have no career aspirations at all. But if someday I decide that I want my ATP, just to do it... I have to go do some simulator training $$$$$, before I am allowed to take the checkride?
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Which you would probably be able to integrate into initial or recurrent training for one of the airframes you fly along the way.
 
weilke said:
Which you would probably be able to integrate into initial or recurrent training for one of the airframes you fly along the way.
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I suppose, Simcom insurance requirements could probably cover this?
 
If you have no career aspirations, it's silly to get an ATP as if you make a mistake, you get held to ATP standards, ie something a PP gets a talking to for or some recurrent, you get a 90 day rip and a 709 ride.
 
ja_user said:
I suppose, Simcom insurance requirements could probably cover this?
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Once those rules firm up, I am sure the different sim providers will offer compliant training as an option with the usual packages.
 
Henning said:
If you have no career aspirations, it's silly to get an ATP as if you make a mistake, you get held to ATP standards, ie something a PP gets a talking to for or some recurrent, you get a 90 day rip and a 709 ride.
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Typically it would be CFI/commercial versus ATP. I wouldn't lose any sleep over this argument.
 
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