1500 hours for ATP to fly 1st Officer

Ron Levy said:
If they follow the baseball model, they'd get free pilots, free pilot training, and free operations standardization.
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I'm not following you're logic. Are you implying that 121 carriers should pay to place candidates within 135 operations? If so, I'd be totally opposed to that, because, much like Europe, it would end up with 10 year training contracts worth ungodly amounts of money on the pilots, in which they basically become indentured servants for their airline.
 
Henning said:
:confused: Who pays for everything in America? The Consumer, it's the basis of capitalism. Business and industry don't pay for anything, they make things happen, sell it and take a cut. Government doesn't pay for anything, they just broker taxpayer money, order things done and take their cut.
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While that's true, there are various points in the chain at which money is extracted and in different ways. For example, airlines advertise air fares, and then there are fees and taxes tacked on directly to the bill paid by the traveler. Why not build all those fees and taxes into the actual fare? Marketing -- the higher air fares would scare off travelers who will still pay the higher price if it is presented differently. Likewise, sales taxes transfer the payment of governmental expenses directly to the consumer at point of sale. There are lots of ways which the cost of this training and development process could managed, but in the long run, it's going to have to be transferred away from the individual pilots onto the end-users, or there won't be enough pilots to fly the planes that the traveling public needs to go where they want, when they want.

It's a damned good thing money is imaginary.
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Only if you don't have it.
 
I'm of the mindset that it's all I'm going to make the first year, and I should compare that opportunity with all the others. It's a question I would ask and expect anybody else with a lick of sense to ask as well, especially of a dog-vomit industry that is the poster child for poor pay, poor working conditions, poor advancement, poor unions, furloughs, layoffs, crew rest and more.

When somebody throws $5k on the table that hasn't been there before I'm going to be wondering why I'm such a lucky guy. Or maybe not so lucky.

I can't help noticing that none of the fan-boys will answer the question but continue to duck the question by referring to some internet data base that is irrelevant to the question.


Art VanDelay said:
So you are of the mindset that the first year rate of pay is ALL one will ever make ?
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KSCessnaDriver said:
Ron, there ain't hardly any check flying left. What little there is is slowly going away. So all you've got left is cargo feeders. You've still got to have 1200 hours to play there.
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They may not be flying actual checks, but there are still plenty of small freight ops around. Once I hit 1200, I've got 3 places that have said for the last year to call them. A different companies hauling slightly different things and different airplanes.. but it's good ol fashioned freight and there is plenty of it left if you're wiling to work your butt off. It also pays better than regional flying by double or so during those FO years. No shiney jet though :rolleyes:
 
Z06_Mir said:
They may not be flying actual checks, but there are still plenty of small freight ops around. Once I hit 1200, I've got 3 places that have said for the last year to call them. A different companies hauling slightly different things and different airplanes.. but it's good ol fashioned freight and there is plenty of it left if you're wiling to work your butt off. It also pays better than regional flying by double or so during those FO years. No shiney jet though :rolleyes:
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Don't have to tell me about it. Realize though, that any of those 208's with FedEx on the side, 135 minimums don't cut it. Where you looking to go.
 
At least my wife will be working to help supplement the terrible pay the first few years once I'm done with school. :eek:
 
Ron Levy said:
Note that the co-pilot of the Colgan flight had never even seen ice on a plane before the fatal flight, and the Captain had little experience in ice himself. If you look back, neither of them would have qualified at their time of hire under the new rules.
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I am pretty sure you got that wrong. The co-pilot and captain were discussing (in the cockpit, prior to their crash) how they had little experience with ice before they started flying at the regionals. There is no way those guys would go several years flying turboprops 121 in the northeast without experiencing ice.



From the NTSB final report
” About 10 seconds later, the captain and the first officer
began a conversation that was unrelated to their flying duties. During that conversation, the first
officer indicated that she had accumulated more actual flight time in icing conditions on her first
day of initial operating experience (IOE) with Colgan than she had before her employment with
the company.12
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Last edited:
dell30rb said:
I am pretty sure you got that wrong. The co-pilot and captain were discussing (in the cockpit, prior to their crash) how they had little experience with ice before they started flying at the regionals. There is no way those guys would go several years flying turboprops 121 in the northeast without experiencing ice.
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On te CVR, the copilot said she had flown in ice before. Also, I think they'd been transferred to the Northeast from another less icy region.
 
KSCessnaDriver said:
Don't have to tell me about it. Realize though, that any of those 208's with FedEx on the side, 135 minimums don't cut it. Where you looking to go.
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None of those were for FedEx feeders. 402's, 310's and possibly at shot at Metroliner. Aside from flight instructing I don't plan on flying for a living, but the offers and business cards from folks tell me there is more out there than people want to admit. Heck, I know a lot of people flying professionally and only 1 of them flies for an airline (Skywest).
 
Ron Levy said:
While that's true, there are various points in the chain at which money is extracted and in different ways. For example, airlines advertise air fares, and then there are fees and taxes tacked on directly to the bill paid by the traveler. Why not build all those fees and taxes into the actual fare? Marketing -- the higher air fares would scare off travelers who will still pay the higher price if it is presented differently. Likewise, sales taxes transfer the payment of governmental expenses directly to the consumer at point of sale. There are lots of ways which the cost of this training and development process could managed, but in the long run, it's going to have to be transferred away from the individual pilots onto the end-users, or there won't be enough pilots to fly the planes that the traveling public needs to go where they want, when they want.

Only if you don't have it.
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It's only worth what people imagine it to be worth, it's printed out of thin air.
 
No imagination required. It's worth what it can be exchanged for.
Henning said:
It's only worth what people imagine it to be worth, it's printed out of thin air.
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wabower said:
No imagination required. It's worth what it can be exchanged for.
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Yep, which is nothing more than what people believe it's worth. It's not substantiated by anything. $85BB a month is being printed, what is backing that besides 'faith'? What happens to the value of a currency and the underlying economy when that 'faith' goes away?
 
What happens tomorrow when you want gas in your car?
Or do you have one?
Henning said:
Yep, which is nothing more than what people believe it's worth. It's not substantiated by anything. $85BB a month is being printed, what is backing that besides 'faith'? What happens to the value of a currency and the underlying economy when that 'faith' goes away?
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Do they also imagine else can be had for the remaining unused numbers on the plastic in case you're hungry?

Henning said:
Nope, it's whatever someone imagines they can charge for it.
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wabower said:
Do they also imagine else can be had for the remaining unused numbers on the plastic in case you're hungry?
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Yeah, but the thing is, tomorrow those numbers could potentially get me much less than they can today, just because people don't have faith in what those numbers are good for. I still have some Million Mark bills that it would require a wheelbarrow full to buy bread. My Grandpa would get paid twice a day and salaries required constant adjustment until the entire economy collapsed which is what brought Hitler into power. Then the economy grew because people had faith again, but like all Ponzi schemes, they require continuous input of something real to support the faith, hence the invasions that were the prelude to the ETO of WWII.
 
The numbers change every day but nobody at the gas station or burger joint gives a shlt about that sad-sack wheelbarrow story. Want to buy something? Have cash or plastic ready in advance. Having a little extra can get you a haircut or a round of golf.

Henning said:
Yeah, but the thing is, tomorrow those numbers could potentially get me much less than they can today, just because people don't have faith in what those numbers are good for. I still have some Million Mark bills that it would require a wheelbarrow full to buy bread. My Grandpa would get paid twice a day and salaries required constant adjustment until the entire economy collapsed which is what brought Hitler into power. Then the economy grew because people had faith again, but like all Ponzi schemes, they require continuous input of something real to support the faith, hence the invasions that were the prelude to the ETO of WWII.
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wabower said:
The numbers change every day but nobody at the gas station or burger joint gives a shlt about that sad-sack wheelbarrow story. Want to buy something? Have cash or plastic ready in advance. Having a little extra can get you a haircut or a round of golf.
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Today, might not do it tomorrow though.
 
Aren't they all? Look for this one to morph to hydrogen soon. And then water.

Ron Levy said:
Someone let me know when PoA opens an Economics forum. Until then, I'm out of this discussion.
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wabower said:
I'm of the mindset that it's all I'm going to make the first year, and I should compare that opportunity with all the others. It's a question I would ask and expect anybody else with a lick of sense to ask as well, especially of a dog-vomit industry that is the poster child for poor pay, poor working conditions, poor advancement, poor unions, furloughs, layoffs, crew rest and more.

When somebody throws $5k on the table that hasn't been there before I'm going to be wondering why I'm such a lucky guy. Or maybe not so lucky.

I can't help noticing that none of the fan-boys will answer the question but continue to duck the question by referring to some internet data base that is irrelevant to the question.
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I'm not sure what you're getting at Wayne-O but if you want to know the top of the scale that'd most probably would be FedEx at $320 bucks per flight hour. Delta and United circa $270ish.
 
Another non-answer to a question that nobody seems able to comprehend. What is total first-year comp for a new-hire including the $5k bonus? McDonalds doesn't seem to a problem with that rate x volume exercise, why is it so hard for the pilots to spit it out?

Art VanDelay said:
I'm not sure what you're getting at Wayne-O but if you want to know the top of the scale that'd most probably would be FedEx at $320 bucks per flight hour. Delta and United circa $270ish.
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What is the total first 5 or even 10 years compensation? What happens when you are at the top scale at your airline and it folds, what are the prospects for your next year's compensation? That last is the factor that drove so many pilots out of the industry.
 
Henning said:
What is the total first 5 or even 10 years compensation? What happens when you are at the top scale at your airline and it folds, what are the prospects for your next year's compensation? That last is the factor that drove so many pilots out of the industry.
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There are lots of options for those wiling to try. When I left my first airline after 24 years I had been Captain for 21 of those years. My options were to go fly helicopters, go fly corporate or find another carrier, or just retire. I really didn't want the retirement route just yet, and the FAA came a calling needing rotorcraft qualified Inspectors (not many dual rated helo guys with instrument helo and helo CFI and CFII ratings around) while there went into a CMO on the Air Carrier side, then an airline in Asia offered me a DEC position on an Airbus.

I always lived conservatively and planned likewise. Worked out well for me.
 
wabower said:
Another non-answer to a question that nobody seems able to comprehend. What is total first-year comp for a new-hire including the $5k bonus? McDonalds doesn't seem to a problem with that rate x volume exercise, why is it so hard for the pilots to spit it out?
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Why EVER does that matter Wayne ? McDonald's guys likely make more than many medical interns if you look at hours put in and pay taken home . Are you unable to connect the dots that in both examples it leads to a higher paying better job ?????
 
Are pilots the only group who think that an employee in today's world isn't looking at all aspects of the job, including first-year pay if that's what they will be forced to live on? With the current (or projected) costs of achieving the time necessary to apply for FO job on Dog Turd Express, the same time and expense would have paid for most if not all of graduate school to get a real job that's not forever tied to a seniority number and a guaranteed 50% cut in pension benefits--at least so far.

Art VanDelay said:
Why EVER does that matter Wayne ? McDonald's guys likely make more than many medical interns if you look at hours put in and pay taken home . Are you unable to connect the dots that in both examples it leads to a higher paying better job ?????
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wabower said:
Sadly, many of us had direct experience in training and evaluating many of the people who were hired during that time, most of whom wouldn't have been trusted to drive a log truck on a two-lane road.

Not that the good ones needed 1,500 hours, but 200 CFI and two weeks Seminole won't cut it.
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I don't think motor carriers are hiring newbies to drive tractor semi-trailer combinations with log cargo on two lane roads. That would have to be some of the most difficult driving in the world. The driver does not know the weight or distribution of weight of the cargo, and the road is challenging.

When I was researching such topics, motor carrier drivers with five or fewer years of driving experience had much worse safety records than drivers with more years of experience, even if the comparison group was drivers who had accidents in their first five years. We could not find a distribution that allowed us to distinguish between age of the driver and years of driving experience. Being a driver with five or fewer years of experience was highly correlated with being under 25 years of age. It may have been a maturity issue and it may have been a skill issue.

When attempting generalize that to aviation, perhaps a difficult stretch, one would hope that at least one of the pilots was mature enough to be careful, especially in a crew environment where risk taking usually has to involve two or more participants.
 
A friend of mine just got a job flying KA350's. He found the job listing online. There were over 200 applicants in the first few hours of the posting. The job really doesn't offer any chance for advancement, no union, no pension, no retirement, basically no healthcare, no set schedule (on demand), pays about $40K, nothing but multi-PIC turbine. He has about 5K hours, 3K turbine PIC, and several multi-TP type ratings. If he didn't know the hiring person he wouldn't have had a chance, there were plenty of 10k applicants with the type already done.

If this is the market, it amazes me that there is any issue with the 1500 hour requirement given the apparent level of talent available on the dirt cheap.
 
How old is he? Things are improving for GA jobs, although nothing to write home about.

I actually spent about an hour yesterday discussing what we could do with a Citation Encore recurrent slot that is available as part of a recent acquisition. We got nobody who fits the bill and the chief pilot doesn't want to train a new copilot.

Alexb2000 said:
A friend of mine just got a job flying KA350's. He found the job listing online. There were over 200 applicants in the first few hours of the posting. The job really doesn't offer any chance for advancement, no union, no pension, no retirement, basically no healthcare, no set schedule (on demand), pays about $40K, nothing but multi-PIC turbine. He has about 5K hours, 3K turbine PIC, and several multi-TP type ratings. If he didn't know the hiring person he wouldn't have had a chance, there were plenty of 10k applicants with the type already done.

If this is the market, it amazes me that there is any issue with the 1500 hour requirement given the apparent level of talent available on the dirt cheap.
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Alexb2000 said:
A friend of mine just got a job flying KA350's. He found the job listing online. There were over 200 applicants in the first few hours of the posting. The job really doesn't offer any chance for advancement, no union, no pension, no retirement, basically no healthcare, no set schedule (on demand), pays about $40K, nothing but multi-PIC turbine. He has about 5K hours, 3K turbine PIC, and several multi-TP type ratings. If he didn't know the hiring person he wouldn't have had a chance, there were plenty of 10k applicants with the type already done.

If this is the market, it amazes me that there is any issue with the 1500 hour requirement given the apparent level of talent available on the dirt cheap.
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$40k is about $23k more than he'd start at with a regional and he wouldn't make that for several more years.
 
Henning said:
$40k is about $23k more than he'd start at with a regional and he wouldn't make that for several more years.
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30k with bennies and some sort of advancement path is a better deal than being the on-call lackey for someone at 40k.
 
wabower said:
Are pilots the only group who think that an employee in today's world isn't looking at all aspects of the job, including first-year pay if that's what they will be forced to live on? With the current (or projected) costs of achieving the time necessary to apply for FO job on Dog Turd Express, the same time and expense would have paid for most if not all of graduate school to get a real job that's not forever tied to a seniority number and a guaranteed 50% cut in pension benefits--at least so far.
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You know what Wayne - the world needs Dilberts and cubicle slaves and if that's what makes them happy I say fine. But there are just as many sad stories in that world too. Think World Comm, think Enron, think Wall Street. The only gaurantee in this life is death. Do you want to live or sit in a cubicle with a crappy little picture of a Bonanza tacked up on the wall to remind you there's a world out there ? Pretty FREAKING sad all for the ILLUSION of security.
 
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