1500 hours for ATP to fly 1st Officer

Art VanDelay said:
What you're missing is they didn't have that WHEN THEY WERE HIRED. They were weak and had technology to hide behind and protect them. We need people who can still fly when all the bells and whistles breakdown.

The 1500 hour rule is certainly no guaranteed fix for this but it sure as hell doesn't make it worse.
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So perpetuating the hour counting will not make this worse? You can pass a bunch of rules with "it won't make it worse".... Doesn't make it right.
 
Don't confuse the differences between experience, aptitude, intelligence, training, etc. The slicer isn't calibrated quite that close and the bottom half of the class will graduate too.


ja_user said:
So perpetuating the hour counting will not make this worse? You can pass a bunch of rules with "it won't make it worse".... Doesn't make it right.
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Henning said:
I worked the industry over 15 years ago, why the hell would I want to go back? The days when being an airline pilot was a great career are gone.
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Aviation has been and continues to be good to me!

Henning, how did you work in the industry for 15 years without getting a ATP?

Seems many of the good jobs want a ATP, even if you don't need one per the Feds.
 
wabower said:
Don't confuse the differences between experience, aptitude, intelligence, training, etc. The slicer isn't calibrated quite that close and the bottom half of the class will graduate too.
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What did we call all those doctors that barely passed their classes again? ;)
 
JGoodish said:
The big problem relative to that crash was that she was paired with a captain who habitually failed performance evaluations and, as I recall, really didn't have much more experience than she did.

Whether the pilots in question would have qualified under the new rules at their time of hire is immaterial. They would have qualified at the time of the accident flight. The FO wasn't the problem, the unqualified captain was the problem. Folks have to get experience somehow, and most of us don't have the ability to fly airliners on our own dime, but a less experienced crew member needs to be paired with one or more "A" players, not an underperformer who just happens to have tenure.


JKG
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A key component of this new law (and it started out as a law not a reg) is that all Regional First Officers MUST have a minimum of 1000 hours part 121 time before they can be upgraded to Captain. This component will have some real teeth both in preventing advancement into the left seat too soon and causing staffing problems for Regionals as their Captains subsequently get hired by majors.
 
wabower said:
In that case I'd guess they would acquit theirselves finely and dandily. I'm aware of the difficulties that some of the single-seat fighter jocks have encountered in the transition to crew environment in both training and operational roles. As a result I'm convinced that our system of sticking a student in the left seat for all his training is a poor way to teach them a lot of what we'd like for them to know.
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The USAF split the UPT pipeline into fighter vs multicrew quite a few years ago. You get someone who got their wings as a sole pilot in front of an instructor in T-38's, you get a very different product than someone who got their wings in T-1A's (Beechjet 400's) in a multicrew environment with students working side by side and the instructor in the jump seat (once the advanced student is safe for the left seat) - and that is intentional.
 
Fearless Tower said:
Back in 2006-2007, even that wasn't necessary.

Back then, Mesa was so desperate for pilots who would fly for peanuts that they were hiring folks with Comm ASEL and 250 hrs. They'd hire a guy with a wet Comm ticket and send them to their Mesa Pilot Development school for the ME and then off to the line they went.
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...and half of them washed out. The chief of training at MPD talked about this at the UAA conference in 2006.
 
Art VanDelay said:
What you're missing is they didn't have that WHEN THEY WERE HIRED. They were weak and had technology to hide behind and protect them. We need people who can still fly when all the bells and whistles breakdown.

The 1500 hour rule is certainly no guaranteed fix for this but it sure as hell doesn't make it worse.
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So, nnn more hours sitting in the right seat of a C-150 would have prepared them to better respond the icing than the time they had in the turbo prop in the months before the accident? :dunno:
 
I see the Beechjet crews at some of their frequent stops but have never seen their CRH or SOP's. Same as civilian?

Ron Levy said:
The USAF split the UPT pipeline into fighter vs multicrew quite a few years ago. You get someone who got their wings as a sole pilot in front of an instructor in T-38's, you get a very different product than someone who got their wings in T-1A's (Beechjet 400's) in a multicrew environment with students working side by side and the instructor in the jump seat (once the advanced student is safe for the left seat) - and that is intentional.
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Art VanDelay said:
A key component of this new law (and it started out as a law not a reg) is that all Regional First Officers MUST have a minimum of 1000 hours part 121 time before they can be upgraded to Captain. This component will have some real teeth both in preventing advancement into the left seat too soon and causing staffing problems for Regionals as their Captains subsequently get hired by majors.
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Other than a few times for lower tier turborprop carriers, was there ever a time people were upgrading with less than 18 months in the seat? If the place is upgrading people quick, people aren't sitting reserve for very long either. So, in 18 months you should easily have the 1000 hours required to upgrade.
 
Fearless Tower said:
It's a childish point that the regionals are hard up for pilots because the pay is absolute dog feces?
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Not at all. My point about being childish is how Wayne wants to make a point as slow as he can, to beat around the bush. Just say what you want to say.
 
Ron Levy said:
...and half of them washed out.
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How many wash out of military pilot training? Should you get 1500 hours in a Cessna 172 before you can fly for the military?
 
Depends on the number of paying passengers they expect you to carry. What's your estimate of the current average?

dmspilot said:
How many wash out of military pilot training? Should you get 1500 hours in a Cessna 172 before you can fly for the military?
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dmspilot said:
How many wash out of military pilot training?
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Washout rate was around 40% when I went through in 1973. Not sure what it is today. Note that they are very selective about who gets in the door in the first place, including age, education, aptitude, etc.

Should you get 1500 hours in a Cessna 172 before you can fly for the military?
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No reason I can think of to do that.
 
Ron Levy said:
Fair enough answer. FWIW, the USAF drops them in the right seats of C-130's and other large ME turbine transports all the time, and AMC's safety record is pretty darn good considering some of the things they have to do.
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My understanding is that the military and civilian ATC do a pretty good job of routing them around weather reducing their need for weather judgement.... I could be wrong.
 
NineThreeKilo said:
Aviation has been and continues to be good to me!

Henning, how did you work in the industry for 15 years without getting a ATP?

Seems many of the good jobs want a ATP, even if you don't need one per the Feds.
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Nope, everyone was hiring for the right seat with a CPL, 1200TT and 200ME and a 1st Class medical back then with an expected 3 years to upgrade. I had 1200tt with 1100ME and a 1st class.
 
The article I got these questions from said that ATP and other schools were signing up direct hire deals with the regional and majors to directly hire CFI's when they received enough time. They even mentioned the carriers providing benefits like health insurance during that time as CFI at ATP.

Do these CFI's at ATP get paid? If so What? How miserable is that year or two while obtaining the additional required time to be hired by regional or majors?

What options to the CFI's flying for smaller rural FBO's have to achieve these goals?
 
Ron Levy said:
...and half of them washed out. The chief of training at MPD talked about this at the UAA conference in 2006.
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Not suprising at all. I'm guessing that Mesa's HR manager must have retired from working at BUPERS. That is a classic Navy manpower strategy.
 
ja_user said:
The real problem (snip) hiring pilots that continue to get less than stellar reviews.
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Which will only get worse due to the new 1500 hour minimum. The regional pay sucks but it was appropriate for a really low time guy who just wanted a leg up into the industry. Now that you must accumulate a lot of experience on your own, the regionals are going to have to up the starting pay or literally hire anyone with 1500 hours that can fog a mirror. Guess which one they are gonna do?
 
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Tony_Scarpelli said:
My understanding is that the military and civilian ATC do a pretty good job of routing them around weather reducing their need for weather judgement.... I could be wrong.
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ATC treats them no differently than anyone else, and those military folks fly a lot of places where there is no ATC to help at all, or the ATC which does exist has no ability to provide weather assistance. You go to Turkey or the Philippines, and you're a lot more on your own than here in the USA, and in the middle of the Pacific, there's nobody out there but you.
 
dell30rb said:
Which will only get worse due to the new 1500 hour minimum. The regional pay sucks but it was appropriate for a really low time guy who just wanted a leg up into the industry. Now that you must accumulate a lot of experience on your own, the regionals are going to have to up the starting pay or literally hire anyone with 1500 hours that can fog a mirror. Guess which one they are gonna do?
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There are a lot of folks out there who meet the new qualifications but aren't willing to work for what the regionals are paying. My feeling is that if starting regional goes up to something on which one can live, a lot of better-qualified pilots will come crawling out of the woodwork. The problem is that the regionals' business model doesn't provide for that level of pay, and to be able to pay that much, either fares or their subsidies from their partner major carriers will have to go up substantially, and that would create industry-wide economic ripples (maybe even tidal waves). We'll see how it all plays out.

The alternative is to move to the European model where young folks are recruited and selected much as the military does, and then given a few years of aviation education (much like the big airline pilot prep programs at ERAU, UND, MTSU, etc) leading to the right seat of the smallest aircraft the airline flies. Of course, we all know how well that worked with the infamous Air France stalled Airbus accident, and the cost of that would significantly change the major carriers' business model, but we'll see what happens.

Personally, I think the establishment of a better minor league system for pilots would be the way to go -- airlines establishing relationships with operators of smaller aircraft such as the folks flying freight and checks at night, or sub-regional charter, in light twins. In the current system, you have the major leagues (the major carriers such as American and United) and the Triple-A (regionals), but no connection to the Single-A and Double-A levels where the new kids get their first professional pilot job and build the sort of experience whose lack we are bemoaning. The majors don't have to own the minor league teams (and in baseball they don't), but the do need to deal with hiring, staffing, procedures, etc, just as the major league teams recruit, select, assign, and pay the players and coaches while the minor league owner is responsible for facilities like the ball park.
 
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Tony: Be careful with that (g). Weather planning and avoidance is up to the PIC. Yes, at times ATC can help, but you sure as heck better know what's going on and what the limitations of their equipment is. It surely is a resource I use, but on more than one occasion, I've declined their suggestion (which is what it is) to stay out of some pretty bad stuff. I really appreciate what they do and how they help, but I'll take my eyeballs and on-board RADAR when penetrating a system over ground based, composite RADAR every time. Other pilot reports, and their composite can be very helpful, but in fast moving systems, their returns may be late and they have no idea when I can get on top of what they're seeing. Circumnavigate building cells frequently and they often warn not to go where I can clearly see it's fine and, the converse.

Best,

Dave
 
Ron Levy said:
Personally, I think the establishment of a better minor league system for pilots would be the way to go -- airlines establishing relationships with operators of smaller aircraft such as the folks flying freight and checks at night, or sub-regional charter, in light twins. In the current system, you have the major leagues (the major carriers such as American and United) and the Triple-A (regionals), but no connection to the Single-A and Double-A levels where the new kids get their first professional pilot job and build the sort of experience whose lack we are bemoaning. The majors don't have to own the minor league teams (and in baseball they don't), but the do need to deal with hiring, staffing, procedures, etc, just as the major league teams recruit, select, assign, and pay the players and coaches while the minor league owner is responsible for facilities like the ball park.
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Ron, there ain't hardly any check flying left. What little there is is slowly going away. So all you've got left is cargo feeders. You've still got to have 1200 hours to play there.
 
KSCessnaDriver said:
Ron, there ain't hardly any check flying left. What little there is is slowly going away. So all you've got left is cargo feeders. You've still got to have 1200 hours to play there.
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The major league ball teams don't really need the kids playing A-ball, but they pay them to play there anyway, as they're going to need them in a few years and they want the kids to be ready when the major league team does need them. Perhaps the major airlines could recognize the importance of taking on and paying these new commercial pilots as co-pilots at the bottom level to build their 1200 hours and then move them to the left seat before moving up to the next level? :dunno:

Yes, this requires a significant change in the industry's thinking and structure, and yes, there will be economic impacts, but right now they seem to be running purely on the hope that the pilots they need will be there, and I don't think hope is an effective strategy.
 
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dmspilot said:
Can you explain how the additional 2,761 hours the captain had accumulated since being hired with ~600 hours was less valuable than another 900 hours of Cessna 172 time?
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Yes, I'd be glad to help you with that. First, what is the most likely pathway he would have used to attain that additional flight time ? If you said CFI I would agree. Looking at his overall standings as an aviator just how likely do you think he would have been to have successfully passed an initial CFI check ride ? If you said not a snowballs chance in hell I would also tend to agree. Unlike other airman ratings that one is pretty hard to fluff through, even at the pilot mills.

Now, at this point one of two things would have happened - A. He realizes that this just isn't for him and he becomes a cubicle slave in some other industry. Or, B. He gets the additional TRAINING that he somehow obviously missed and takes the TIME to learn to do things correctly and with aeronautical common sense and actually goes on to be a decent instructor for that remaining time.

Either A or B could have made ALL the difference.
 
Henning said:
I worked the industry over 15 years ago, why the hell would I want to go back? The days when being an airline pilot was a great career are gone.
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Bouncing from the bilge of one super yacht to the next is not my idea of a glamorous career path either. To use your own phrase "Not my cup of tea" but glad that someone likes it.
 
Ron Levy said:
The major league ball teams don't really need the kids playing A-ball, but they pay them to play there anyway, as they're going to need them in a few years and they want the kids to be ready when the major league team does need them. Perhaps the major airlines could recognize the importance of taking on and paying these new commercial pilots as co-pilots at the bottom level to build their 1200 hours and then move them to the left seat before moving up to the next level? :dunno:
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Why would the 135 carriers want to turn their operation into a revolving door of pilot training for 121. What would they get out of the deal, other than extremely high training costs.
 
LDJones said:
So, nnn more hours sitting in the right seat of a C-150 would have prepared them to better respond the icing than the time they had in the turbo prop in the months before the accident? :dunno:
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A non military, non ab initio pilot is what we in the airline industry consider to be an unknown. Nobody really knows what experience and or training background such an individual brings to the table. All we have to evaluate this person is pretty much his logbook. We would rightfully hope that this unknown had been exposed to a wide spectrum of aviation abnormalities and or emergencies such that we don't have to worry about how the applicant may react when confronted by such problems while flying with our passengers on board.

Every hour you log is not entirely identical to any other hour. Each hour in the air carries with it the POTENTIAL for exposure to some type of abnormality or emergency, and the way in which you deal with that situation (regardless of right or wrong) builds your experience and skill set as an aviator.

Hours of flight time represent exposure. No, it's NOT a perfect indicator or measure but if you come from somewhere other than the first two places I mentioned its all we got to really know that you might be okay. Yeah we could give you an elaborate multi day sim ride - but that costs us money and I'm fine with that but the bean counters upstream can't see it.
 
KSCessnaDriver said:
Other than a few times for lower tier turborprop carriers, was there ever a time people were upgrading with less than 18 months in the seat? If the place is upgrading people quick, people aren't sitting reserve for very long either. So, in 18 months you should easily have the 1000 hours required to upgrade.
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In 1994 at Continental Express I had a friend who held captain on the ATR before he even finished his initial hire F/O training !
 
Art VanDelay said:
In 1994 at Continental Express I had a friend who held captain on the ATR before he even finished his initial hire F/O training !
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I knew there would be somebody with an example. Needless to say, it isn't and hasn't been a super common occurrence.
 
KSCessnaDriver said:
Why would the 135 carriers want to turn their operation into a revolving door of pilot training for 121. What would they get out of the deal, other than extremely high training costs.
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If they follow the baseball model, they'd get free pilots, free pilot training, and free operations standardization.
 
Ron Levy said:
If they follow the baseball model, they'd get free pilots, free pilot training, and free operations standardization.
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The only problem is that the 121 profit margin is not the same as baseball, they can't afford to do it under their current business model.
 
Henning said:
The only problem is that the 121 profit margin is not the same as baseball, they can't afford to do it under their current business model.
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Exactly. That's why I also said that there would have to be a radical change in the air carrier business model and the economics of air transportation. The Europeans already doing this have the benefit of governmental subsidies which US air carriers lack. There is a storm coming, and our air carrier industry needs to start weatherproofing itself in order to maintain its exemplary level of safety, but there will be a price to pay The question is who's going to pay it -- the industry, the government, the rest of the national business sector...:dunno:
 
Ron Levy said:
Exactly. That's why I also said that there would have to be a radical change in the air carrier business model and the economics of air transportation. The Europeans already doing this have the benefit of governmental subsidies which US air carriers lack. There is a storm coming, and our air carrier industry needs to start weatherproofing itself in order to maintain its exemplary level of safety, but there will be a price to pay The question is who's going to pay it -- the industry, the government, the rest of the national business sector...:dunno:
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:confused: Who pays for everything in America? The Consumer, it's the basis of capitalism. Business and industry don't pay for anything, they make things happen, sell it and take a cut. Government doesn't pay for anything, they just broker taxpayer money, order things done and take their cut. It's a damned good thing money is imaginary.
 
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