1500 hours for ATP to fly 1st Officer

Tony_Scarpelli

Tony_Scarpelli

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Tony_Scarpelli
Is this really any different? How many 1st Officers had less than 1500 hrs?

I know there was Cogan air incident, I do not recall his ours.

How does this effect the industry? Seems this could account for some of the 80 drop out rate for recent student pilots.

Boeing report tricks report 500,000 new pilots required but if you read further only 15% are required in US.

Doesn't seem to matter what FAA wants in the US as most pilots required are required outside the US.
 
1500 seems like a lot, but really comes down to about 2 yrs of instructing. i think they only need 1000hrs if they go to an aviation college??

Imagine that, requiring an Airline Transport license to fly airliners. haha
 
The guys crashing Cogan would have all qualified. It was a solution to a problem that didn't exist. The real problem was crew rest and hiring pilots that continue to get less than stellar reviews.
 
us AAirways said:
1500 seems like a lot, but really comes down to about 2 yrs of instructing. i think they only need 1000hrs if they go to an aviation college??

Imagine that, requiring an Airline Transport license to fly airliners. haha
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There's more to it, many instructors will fall short on 500xc time

You also now need 50hrs in class (so for a ME ATP you need 50hrs multi PIC),.

Then there is the ground part which comes into play 2014, you have to log a bit of class room time, level C or D sim time and it needs to be at a part 141 school (as I recall).
 
ja_user said:
The guys crashing Cogan would have all qualified. It was a solution to a problem that didn't exist. The real problem was crew rest and hiring pilots that continue to get less than stellar reviews.
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For 25k a year, **** benefits and being treated worse then the mop, you are lucky regional pilots even can speak english
 
Tony_Scarpelli said:
Is this really any different? How many 1st Officers had less than 1500 hrs?

I know there was Cogan air incident, I do not recall his ours.

How does this effect the industry? Seems this could account for some of the 80 drop out rate for recent student pilots.

Boeing report tricks report 500,000 new pilots required but if you read further only 15% are required in US.

Doesn't seem to matter what FAA wants in the US as most pilots required are required outside the US.
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In 2007 people were getting on with the regionals at 250 total time. Even within the last few years, minimums were coming back down to around 750-1000 total time.
 
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KSCessnaDriver said:
In 2007 people were getting on with the regionals at 250 total time. Even within the last few years, minimums were coming back down to around 750-100 total time.
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I'm sure you meant 750-1000 hours TT, not 100, but otherwise, your statement is accurate. In the 2006 time frame, with those 300-500-hour new hires, regionals were seeing washout rates of over 50% from hire to IOE completion -- and that barely scratches the surface of the problem. Note that the co-pilot of the Colgan flight had never even seen ice on a plane before the fatal flight, and the Captain had little experience in ice himself. If you look back, neither of them would have qualified at their time of hire under the new rules.
 
Sadly, many of us had direct experience in training and evaluating many of the people who were hired during that time, most of whom wouldn't have been trusted to drive a log truck on a two-lane road.

Not that the good ones needed 1,500 hours, but 200 CFI and two weeks Seminole won't cut it.

KSCessnaDriver said:
In 2007 people were getting on with the regionals at 250 total time. Even within the last few years, minimums were coming back down to around 750-100 total time.
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Well at least we can all be sure that this type if accident will be greatly reduced. I am sure this rule was scientifically researched before deciding that it would save lives.
 
If Rochester had been in another state Schumer would have discontinued airline service due to "clear and present danger" of operating there.

ja_user said:
Well at least we can all be sure that this type if accident will be greatly reduced. I am sure this rule was scientifically researched before deciding that it would save lives.
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wabower said:
Sadly, many of us had direct experience in training and evaluating many of the people who were hired during that time, most of whom wouldn't have been trusted to drive a log truck on a two-lane road.

Not that the good ones needed 1,500 hours, but 200 CFI and two weeks Seminole won't cut it.
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How about 200-hour USAF UPT graduates for the right seats of those RJ's?
 
No clue. None of them were evaluated and I have no idee what they know or what they flew.

ja_user said:
Well at least we can all be sure that this type if accident will be greatly reduced. I am sure this rule was scientifically researched before deciding that it would save lives.
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Ron Levy said:
How about 200-hour USAF UPT graduates for the right seats of those RJ's?
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wabower said:
No clue. None of them were evaluated and I have no idee what they know or what they flew.
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Fair enough answer. FWIW, the USAF drops them in the right seats of C-130's and other large ME turbine transports all the time, and AMC's safety record is pretty darn good considering some of the things they have to do.
 
Ron Levy said:
How about 200-hour USAF UPT graduates for the right seats of those RJ's?
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Sure, I'd say 250 and a CPL for the right seat and team them with senior captains. Goes back to primacy, but then you have to train and cull the rejects like the USAF as well. I've been advocating this for a long time.
 
Regionals can't afford Air Force style ab initio training. Here's the thing though. They dont have to! Dreamers line up to get paid 25K for the privilege.
 
In that case I'd guess they would acquit theirselves finely and dandily. I'm aware of the difficulties that some of the single-seat fighter jocks have encountered in the transition to crew environment in both training and operational roles. As a result I'm convinced that our system of sticking a student in the left seat for all his training is a poor way to teach them a lot of what we'd like for them to know.

Ron Levy said:
Fair enough answer. FWIW, the USAF drops them in the right seats of C-130's and other large ME turbine transports all the time, and AMC's safety record is pretty darn good considering some of the things they have to do.
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hindsight2020 said:
Regionals can't afford Air Force style ab initio training. Here's the thing though. They dont have to! Dreamers line up to get paid 25K for the privilege.
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$25k? They pay way more than that, I see ab initio programs at $90k.
 
wabower said:
In that case I'd guess they would acquit theirselves finely and dandily. I'm aware of the difficulties that some of the single-seat fighter jocks have encountered in the transition to crew environment in both training and operational roles. As a result I'm convinced that our system of sticking a student in the left seat for all his training is a poor way to teach them a lot of what we'd like for them to know.
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Yep, create a system that if they intend to go to the airlines they start day one in the right seat and operate in a crew environment.
 
Ron Levy said:
I'm sure you meant 750-1000 hours TT, not 100, but otherwise, your statement is accurate. In the 2006 time frame, with those 300-500-hour new hires, regionals were seeing washout rates of over 50% from hire to IOE completion -- and that barely scratches the surface of the problem. Note that the co-pilot of the Colgan flight had never even seen ice on a plane before the fatal flight, and the Captain had little experience in ice himself. If you look back, neither of them would have qualified at their time of hire under the new rules.
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Yes, I missed a "0" and fixed it. Ok, so the Colgan FO had never seen ice. At least she was part of a crew, where there were 2 pilots. I've never seen ice and I'm flying single pilot FIKI equipment. How is that safer?
 
Weak.

Because there's no chance for injury or worse to more than one person in the plane?

KSCessnaDriver said:
Yes, I missed a "0" and fixed it. Ok, so the Colgan FO had never seen ice. At least she was part of a crew, where there were 2 pilots. I've never seen ice and I'm flying single pilot FIKI equipment. How is that safer?
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Ron Levy said:
regionals were seeing washout rates of over 50% from hire to IOE completion -- and that barely scratches the surface of the problem.
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A high washout rate is not relevant to those pilots who did not wash out. It's an HR problem.

Ron Levy said:
Note that the co-pilot of the Colgan flight had never even seen ice on a plane before the fatal flight
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You're reciting a false rumor which came about after taxing her CVR statements out of context.

Ron Levy said:
If you look back, neither of them would have qualified at their time of hire under the new rules
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If the new rules were implemented the day before the accident, they would have qualified because they already had the time.

Even if your argument was taken at face value, if the two pilots had been forced to acquire another several hundred more hours before DOH, would they have been better pilots that would not have had an accident?

The first officer had 1470 hours TT and 92 hours instrument at DOH. What would have an extra 30 and 8 hours done? It would have been insignificant.
 
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KSCessnaDriver said:
Yes, I missed a "0" and fixed it. Ok, so the Colgan FO had never seen ice. At least she was part of a crew, where there were 2 pilots. I've never seen ice and I'm flying single pilot FIKI equipment. How is that safer?
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The big problem relative to that crash was that she was paired with a captain who habitually failed performance evaluations and, as I recall, really didn't have much more experience than she did.

Whether the pilots in question would have qualified under the new rules at their time of hire is immaterial. They would have qualified at the time of the accident flight. The FO wasn't the problem, the unqualified captain was the problem. Folks have to get experience somehow, and most of us don't have the ability to fly airliners on our own dime, but a less experienced crew member needs to be paired with one or more "A" players, not an underperformer who just happens to have tenure.


JKG
 
KSCessnaDriver said:
Still just as much of a chance of people on the ground getting hurt.
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That's pretty slim either way, but the airliner will have more mass and more energy and the ability to kill more people. Consider the difference between the results of Cory Liddle's Cirrus crashing into a building and the 767s on 9/11.
 
1500 hrs seems to be a lot of time,and is if you are paying for those hours. The new requirements for atps are going to make the pilot mills more money,and you may get a more dedicated pilot . However you always have the human factor in aviation.
 
frfly172 said:
1500 hrs seems to be a lot of time,and is if you are paying for those hours. The new requirements for atps are going to make the pilot mills more money,and you may get a more dedicated pilot . However you always have the human factor in aviation.
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Sure, and they'll get on the line thinking they know everything and will still only know the bare minimums that the training environment allows. ERAU will produce some real winners with no time in IMC.
 
ja_user said:
The guys crashing Cogan would have all qualified. It was a solution to a problem that didn't exist. The real problem was crew rest and hiring pilots that continue to get less than stellar reviews.
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What you're missing is they didn't have that WHEN THEY WERE HIRED. They were weak and had technology to hide behind and protect them. We need people who can still fly when all the bells and whistles breakdown.

The 1500 hour rule is certainly no guaranteed fix for this but it sure as hell doesn't make it worse.
 
hindsight2020 said:
Regionals can't afford Air Force style ab initio training. Here's the thing though. They dont have to! Dreamers line up to get paid 25K for the privilege.
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Then why are some Regionals offering up to $5000 bucks signing bonus and other Regionals not able to fill classes ?
 
Henning said:
Yep, create a system that if they intend to go to the airlines they start day one in the right seat and operate in a crew environment.
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Henning, go get your ATP, work the industry, then tell us how we should change our training systems
 
wabower said:
Not that the good ones needed 1,500 hours, but 200 CFI and two weeks Seminole won't cut it.
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Back in 2006-2007, even that wasn't necessary.

Back then, Mesa was so desperate for pilots who would fly for peanuts that they were hiring folks with Comm ASEL and 250 hrs. They'd hire a guy with a wet Comm ticket and send them to their Mesa Pilot Development school for the ME and then off to the line they went.
 
What's projected first-year comp including the bonus?

Art VanDelay said:
Then why are some Regionals offering up to $5000 bucks signing bonus and other Regionals not able to fill classes ?
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wabower said:
What's projected first-year comp including the bonus?
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Wayne, the pilot contracts are easy to find online. You could do the research yourself, but you're using this as a nefarious way to make some childish point.
 
NineThreeKilo said:
Henning, go get your ATP, work the industry, then tell us how we should change our training systems
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I worked the industry over 15 years ago, why the hell would I want to go back? The days when being an airline pilot was a great career are gone.
 
KSCessnaDriver said:
Wayne, the pilot contracts are easy to find online. You could do the research yourself, but you're using this as a nefarious way to make some childish point.
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It's a childish point that the regionals are hard up for pilots because the pay is absolute dog feces?
 
Huh? Is this thread about pilot issues of which comp has been mentioned or web research? What's childish about career decisions other than your track record?
KSCessnaDriver said:
Wayne, the pilot contracts are easy to find online. You could do the research yourself, but you're using this as a nefarious way to make some childish point.
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Henning said:
Don't you have to work out of Asia? Not my cup of tea, you may like it.
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Have to? Uh, I made the choice to come over here and live. My career has given me many choices for employment. This has been one of the best choices to date. :thumbsup:

I also spent 24 years at a US carrier that was very good to me as well. Like I said, the airline business has been very rewarding for me. :yes:
 
Art VanDelay said:
What you're missing is they didn't have that WHEN THEY WERE HIRED.
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Can you explain how the additional 2,761 hours the captain had accumulated since being hired with ~600 hours was less valuable than another 900 hours of Cessna 172 time?
 
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