10 airplanes to avoid

Discussion in 'Flight Following' started by brien23, Nov 19, 2017.

  1. Pilawt

    Pilawt Final Approach

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    I got my AMEL (CFI) in a 160 hp Apache. N4374P was our flight school's multi-engine trainer. It had been Piper's 1961 brochure cover girl, but it was faded and dull by the time I got to it ten years later. We called it the "Apathy".

    Screen Shot 2017-11-05 at 5.16.48 PM.png
     
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  2. brien23

    brien23 Cleared for Takeoff

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    I like Mooneys their great fast and easy to fly, as far as maint. on them they are a little tight to work on and the wood wing ones need extra care. This is not a airplane you want any A&P working on they will complain and have little knowledge of what is important to check. This is one airplane if you can't afford to maintain it right you should not own one. This is one airplane they got it right in the first model other aircraft they get better as time and the model number go by. Some aircraft they never got right Everything about the Beech 18 is just terrible. Round engines. Too many engines to begin with. A taildragger. We won't even talk about the looks. If you can even get $15,000, you should sell it immediately. So.......will you take $21,000 for it?
     
    Last edited: Nov 20, 2017
  3. Tom-D

    Tom-D Ejection Handle Pulled

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    hate climbing down into them and the PA-28. people step all over the seats, kick stuff getting in and out.
    Mooney the only aircraft in the GA fleet that has allowable fuel leaks
     
  4. GRG55

    GRG55 Final Approach

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    The Air Force can afford to fly almost anything. They use Pentagon economics, which is derived from the same perpetual negative income statement school of economics our governments learned.
     
  5. mscard88

    mscard88 Touchdown! Greaser!

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    Gheesh just spoil it now! ;)
     
  6. GRG55

    GRG55 Final Approach

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    C'mon now Mark, fess up. Other than sex and PBR, is there anything finer than burning the taxpayer's aviation fuel?
     
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  7. StevieTimes

    StevieTimes Line Up and Wait

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    ...is it "riding dirt bikes and PBR...?"

    [​IMG]
     
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  8. Zeldman

    Zeldman Final Approach

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    Ouch.... just so close to making land.
     
  9. Zeldman

    Zeldman Final Approach

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    Nuts, I agree. It was a beautiful plane, inside and out. And when everything was working, it flew well. When it quit working, it quit working well.

    It did sit 18 or so months without the front engine waiting for a replacement. That could have something to do with the break downs.
     
  10. bluesideup

    bluesideup Pre-takeoff checklist

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    Hi everyone.
    Can someone elaborate on the pre 1971 C172 problems?
     
  11. Fearless Tower

    Fearless Tower Touchdown! Greaser!

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    Well the late 50s and into early 60s models had O-300s, which the OP apparently hates.

    O-300s are great running engines, but a prospective buyer should know they are more expensive to overhaul due to the number of cylinders than a newer 4 banger. And some parts like crankshafts are getting harder to find.

    Not necessarily something to ‘avoid’. Just understand you may have more challenges to address than a later model. My first airplane had an O-300.
     
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  12. ktup-flyer

    ktup-flyer Pattern Altitude

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    Mark definitely isn't Ronnie Mac. Jimmy Albertson lol
     
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  13. brien23

    brien23 Cleared for Takeoff

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    Cessna redesigned the instrument panel to allow for more avionics and instruments. Thus the standard “six pack” was born. 172L – In 1971 Cessna introduced the 172L which featured tubular landing gear the spring steel one was narrow and subject to major damage as it had no give fore and aft. The early O-300 had no vacuum pump pad some parts like the crank and oil pan can be a problem to replace, it does have 2 more cylinders to care for and feed. 172R – a 160 horsepower Lycoming IO-360L2A with new sound proofing, interior, and fuel injection the 172R has been a popular choice for pilots and flight schools. Not saying their are not some pre 1971 models that are in new condition but those have a price that you can get a 1971 or newer with the improvements in safety and reliability Cessna made for the same price or less, why would you want the older one. I suspect some of the people would rather drive a 1957 ford than a new 2018 ford as for myself I like the new one.
     
    Last edited: Nov 22, 2017
  14. mscard88

    mscard88 Touchdown! Greaser!

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    Hey it could happen! :crazy:
     
  15. timwinters

    timwinters Touchdown! Greaser! PoA Supporter

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    Yawn...all of it.

    O-300s are like sewing machines compared to the 4 banging Lycos.
     
  16. Pilawt

    Pilawt Final Approach

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    The "Skyhawk" option package, introduced for 1961, had the O-300-D with vacuum pump pad. The vast majority of 172B through 172H were sold as Skyhawks. They switched to the Lycoming O-320 in the 1968 172I, mainly because Cessna had bought a boatload of O-320s intended for the new Cardinal, but soon realized the Cardinal needed an O-360 instead. 172s built in France continued with the Rolls-Royce Continental O-300 through the 1971 model year.
     
  17. MBDiagMan

    MBDiagMan En-Route

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    That is a safe list alright. Of course if you followed it you are not eliminating the possibility of being hit by a truck while walking down the rowe.
     
  18. TylerSC

    TylerSC Pre-takeoff checklist

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    My 65 PA-28-140 has push pull controls and hand brake only. It’s a great airplane. High useful load - two grown men, light bags and full fuel. Four hour plus endurance. Not very fast but that’s a lot of trainers. Very very forgiving landing gear. It has some quirks but I’d recommend it to any new pilot.
     
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  19. MBDiagMan

    MBDiagMan En-Route

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    Never seen even the tiniest fuel leak. WONDERFUL aircraft. If a leak ever happens I will fix it happily. A small price to pay to fly such a wonderful aircraft.
     
  20. Tom-D

    Tom-D Ejection Handle Pulled

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    You're a very fortunate owner, the first time you have to clean and reseal a mooney tank will make you a believer.
     
  21. MBDiagMan

    MBDiagMan En-Route

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    The tanks were dealt with before I bought it. As I said, it is such a wonderful airplane I will happily deal with the problem if it presents itself. Most every vehicle has its Achilles heel. The issue is whether the positives outweigh the negatives in the eyes of the beholder.

    So what happened to the old standby Mooney hating complaint? You know, the one about “wearing” a Mooney? Most Mooney haters complain about the size. The interesting part of that is that IME most folks with that complaint are well over 200 pounds and can’t turn down the ice cream a and French fries.
     
    Last edited: Nov 23, 2017
  22. Tom-D

    Tom-D Ejection Handle Pulled

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    Doesn't alter my statement, they have allowable fuel Leakes. its in a maintenance manual.
    I don't have a problem with their size. I'm not a big guy, but I am getting old and don't bend as easy as I once did. But I still prefer 2 doors, and not walking on my aircraft getting in or out.
     
  23. MBDiagMan

    MBDiagMan En-Route

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    That’s why they make different aircraft. They make some that you like and some that I like. You are free to own and fly what you choose, as am I. Same thing with road vehicles. I only buy vehicles with a manual transmission. I am sure that there is a long list of folks ready to criticize me for that too, but guess what, I promise not to force anyone else to drive one.
     
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  24. brien23

    brien23 Cleared for Takeoff

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    The early O-300, note I said early O-300 engines had no vacuum pump pads, lots of Cessna 172 had a venturi on the side for vacuum. Pilots complain about one engine driven vacuum pump failure, how many would fly hard IFR with a venturi for vacuum.
     
  25. brien23

    brien23 Cleared for Takeoff

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    The O-300 did not go out of production because they had a large back order of them and could not keep up with production. That engine and Franklin went the way of Studebaker and others that fade into oblivion. Anyone that thinks their is some conspiracy behind their failure needs to get a new tinfoil hat on.
     
  26. Lachlan

    Lachlan Pattern Altitude

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    Well, don't let that stop you. This is PoA, after all.
     
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  27. DavidWhite

    DavidWhite Final Approach

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    How is the spring steel gear on cessnas a bad thing? Much sturdier, no fairings to worry about....

    If you’re not a bad pilot constantly side-loading the gear, that is.
     
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  28. brien23

    brien23 Cleared for Takeoff

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    You probably have someone that knows how to inspect a Mooney landing gear rubber shocks. As I said this is one airplane if you can't afford to maintain it right you probably should not own one.
     
  29. Mtns2Skies

    Mtns2Skies Super Moderator Management Council Member

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    Me. No moving parts to fail. Relies solely on physics. Just stay WELL clear of ice.
     
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  30. brien23

    brien23 Cleared for Takeoff

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    Cessna did not change the flat spring because it was better, they changed it due to the narrow stance and severe damage that was due to the no give fore and aft of the flat spring. If you do not think the upgrade that Cessna made is better, than nothing I or others say will change that.
     
  31. SkyHog

    SkyHog Touchdown! Greaser!

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    Everything Offends Me
    I prefer any Piper with he trim on the roof.

    That’s the easiest trim method I’ve ever used. Had two of em (my Cherokee 180 years ago and my current Comanche 250)

    Neither had the throttle quadrant.
     
  32. brien23

    brien23 Cleared for Takeoff

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    It's like they say "Their are old pilots and bold pilots but very few old bold pilots" .
     
  33. brien23

    brien23 Cleared for Takeoff

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    Don't get me started on Comanche's single or twin, Lots of IA's have sent their kids to college working on them.
     
  34. Ravioli

    Ravioli Final Approach

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    The trim thing I have come to agree with. The wheel between the seat was "easier," as was the Cessna style. Now I've got one where it's a right/left turn on knob and I get it correct on the first try some of the time. The overhead trim on the 180 I flew a lot was easier to get "just where I needed it."

    I always thought quadrants looked more kewl. Now I've got two without and one with quadrant. Don't really notice anymore.
     
  35. brien23

    brien23 Cleared for Takeoff

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    It's more of a age thing push pull old, real old, or the later or newer with other upgrades piper made with the quadrant. If you like the old push pull, single brake lever among other pre quadrant upgrades so be it I do not recommend it.
     
  36. zaitcev

    zaitcev En-Route

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    Speaking of which, what do you think about this guy:
     
  37. zaitcev

    zaitcev En-Route

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    I'm okay with electric trim, but then remember how Mimi survived a runaway trim by getting her husband push on the yoke (the Mooney was totaled by the hard landing). As far as mechanical trim goes, the overhead crank was pretty convenient.

    I fly with a quadrant now, and I would prefer push-pull with a vernier control, especially for the mixture.

    The handbrake system is workable. It's how a bunch of new LSAs are configured. It's easy to avoid landing with brakes with it.
     
  38. Tantalum

    Tantalum Pattern Altitude

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    I used to be in that camp, but unfortunately it is getting harder and harder to find new vehicles with manual transmissions, especially the luxury / performance market which is where a manual transmission really was home turf

    Sure, a manual Tacoma is still fun and great off road, and a manual Civic or Accord or Echo are also fun.. but with people like BMW, etc., offering fewer and fewer (if any) REAL manuals it is sad to see them go

    The clutchless flappy paddle shifters are a joke. Sure, maybe they're a fraction of the second faster... but at least for me driving manual is not about a 3.22 vs 3.18 zero to sixty time, it's about feeling the car and being in full control of it

    Oh well
     
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  39. Tantalum

    Tantalum Pattern Altitude

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    Agreed

    I happen to really enjoy our club's PA-28-181, especially for long 4 hr flights. Getting in is a PITA, but once you're in you can comfortable travel with full fuel, 3 proper adults, some light baggage, and have no problem. It is a comfortable plane inside, esp the backseat (with just one person) and with the fan, overhead air and floor vents, plus a stable footing and 120-127 TAS* it's a great airplane. Even without any autopilot (which ours has) it is so easy to trim these planes for handsoff flying with the rudder and elevator trims

    For the price of a $120/hr rental I will take PA28 every time over an equivalently priced Skyhawk where my leg doesn't get sore and I'm leaning forward every 5 minutes changing the CG to try and dial in the trim. SR20s rent around me for about

    *For anyone doubting that claim - the plane has wheel pants, a recently balanced prop, flap and aileron gap seals, and the TAS is per the GTN650 calculations page.. or busting out the good old E6B and doing some quick math in the air. 2500 RPM gets be a good 120-122 and 2650 will get 125-127. If anyone still doubts that I'll grab some pictures next time I'm in the air and post them up
     
  40. Tantalum

    Tantalum Pattern Altitude

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    oops., forgot to finish that sentence. They rent for at least twice that, about $250 or thereabouts.. and while they're more comfortable for sure if I'm flying alone or with other pilots the Archer is definitely not half the plane