Fastest path to A&P for personal use

Ed Haywood

Ed Haywood

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Big Ed
I'm approaching 60 and realizing life is short. I co-own a successful business and over the next 2 years will be dialing back my management role.

Currently I am rebuilding my Decathlon under supervision of a close friend who collects and restores vintage aircraft. I will probably log 500-1000 hours of experience by the time I am done this summer.

He's very game to help me get my A&P. He owns some crazy cool airplanes, including several big twin radials. I could get a lot of unique experience helping him work on them.

Thinking of how much I would enjoy working on my airplane and others in my semi-retirement. I really enjoy electrical and avionics work. I have a computer science degree with coursework in electrical engineering, so I find modern electronic devices easy to understand.

Should I continue to work with my buddy to log enough hours in all required areas to take the tests? At current rate that will take several years. Should I look into an accelerated program? How about a combination of the two approaches?
 
Ed Haywood said:
He's very game to help me get my A&P.
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See if your buddy knows a maintenance ASI in the local FSDO. If so, have him call that person and see what they want from him to issue your 8610 test authorization forms. If the ASI only wants a letter from your buddy then work toward that goal and once you get the 8610s, go to Bakers and get your A&P. That is the fastest path per se. If he doesn't know anyone at the FSDO, you call and see what they want for the 8610 experience. If different than above, compare that FSDO length of time to the requirements of a local CC A&P program or private A&P program and see which will take longer/shorter to accomplish.
 
I’m in a similar situation but I just can’t see a path that’s worth the effort. Especially since I have more than one A&P willing to supervise and sign off on my work, there’s not really an advantage for personal use, imo
 
Salty said:
I’m in a similar situation but I just can’t see a path that’s worth the effort. Especially since I have more than one A&P willing to supervise and sign off on my work, there’s not really an advantage for personal use, imo
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We're in the same area. I live east of Tampa and operate out of Wimauma, near Sun City. Have you looked into various programs in the Tampa area?
 
Ed Haywood said:
We're in the same area. I live east of Tampa and operate out of Wimauma, near Sun City. Have you looked into various programs in the Tampa area?
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Everything I found was 2 years of school.
 
My suggest is that anyone that would remotely want the A & P is to document the time per FAR 65.77. It’s possible the current folks at the Fiefdom only want a
Letter. However; when they retire or change positions or policies vary you could be SOL. There are folks that can take 8-10 years or more to accomplish this. Why take a chance? I’ve talked to a lot of people that worked like you and never logged the time. What is the plan then if something happens with the Supervising Tech or you have a falling out?
 
Ed: I started the experience route many years ago. Due to several upheavals in our FSDO, what the previous guys wanted for documentation was no longer acceptable. I had a chance to get into a program we had at work to get my tickets, but just as I got where I could be a part of it, our division was sold off and the new owners disallowed the program and any participation in using our work experience from then on. I'm resigned to going to class, starting in 2024, as I will be within 2 years max, of retiring. Will be pretty funny, going to class with new kids to the business. Been messing with airplanes part or full time since 1980 now.
 
Applicants often short change themselves on experience.
There is only a little truth in saying ALL time must be signed by the Supervising Tech. What is required is the you present documentation “ Satisfactory to the Administrator”. YOU are not the one to decide “ Satisfactory “. Put it ALL on the table and let the ASI decide.

Some things often ignored:

AD and Parts Research . Even experienced Tech can spend a lot of time here.

Simple Servicing Tasks . There is no “ 5 minute job “ like putting air in tires.
This should start with looking up pressures in the Service
Changing plugs is begun by determining type type and
torque. Try that on a GO-145 or a Franklin sometime.
Asking the guy in the next hangar is not acceptable .

Maintenance Officer for a flying club.

Non-FAA Cert Course. - Suppose you took an Adult Ed Welding or Machine Shop
Course ? Obviously this now means you have additional
insight into fields such as Metallurgy.

Weight and Balance - Is an area shared by pilots and Techs. Don’t ignore it.


Regardless of the hours specified the ASI has to make a somewhat subjective
Judgement of your situation. Note that that person may well have to justify the determination. To their Supervisor is obvious. Current Techs will also get the word and may question the result. My experience has been it is not an adversarial meeting. They will try to make a fair assessment. Some time may not pass the litmus test. That’s not for you to decide. Don’t be your own enemy!
 
Build a plane. Rebuild an experimental ENTIRELY. Keep the build scrapbook….
 
Tools said:
Build a plane. Rebuild an experimental ENTIRELY. Keep the build scrapbook….
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While I like this idea, I have read the hours building an experimental cannot count towards A&P certification.
 
Ya, I was just corrected… never mind!
 
Bell206 said:
See if your buddy knows a maintenance ASI in the local FSDO. If so, have him call that person and see what they want from him to issue your 8610 test authorization forms. If the ASI only wants a letter from your buddy then work toward that goal and once you get the 8610s, go to Bakers and get your A&P. That is the fastest path per se. If he doesn't know anyone at the FSDO, you call and see what they want for the 8610 experience. If different than above, compare that FSDO length of time to the requirements of a local CC A&P program or private A&P program and see which will take longer/shorter to accomplish.
Click to expand...

The FARs spell it out pretty clearly what’s required for the A&P. You still have to provide the documentation to prove you have the 18 months of experience (for A) or the 30 months experience for the A&P. FSDO buds have to follow the same rules.

Not only Bakers, I also recommend AeroTech in Spring,TX for the A&P prep. Located just north of IAH and easy to get to. I did mine at AeroTech and they’re more flexible on the hours unlike Bakers.
 
Fracpilot said:
According to the EAA, you can log the hours to count towards the A&P. Where does it say you can’t?
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Once an E/AB receives its AWC then the experience maintaining it can be used. But no building/manufacturing experience can be used. Been that way for quite some time and currently shown in Order 8900.1:
https://drs.faa.gov/browse/excelExternalWindow/DRSDOCID179259654820230109190625.0001
upload_2023-2-20_20-14-39.png
Fracpilot said:
The FARs spell it out pretty clearly what’s required for the A&P.
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The experience evaluation is at the sole discretion of the FSDO ASI given the wide range of possibilities. They still follow the rules but the guidance gives them leeway on how the experience is accepted.
 
Ed Haywood said:
Should I continue to work with my buddy to log enough hours in all required areas to take the tests? At current rate that will take several years. Should I look into an accelerated program? How about a combination of the two approaches?
Click to expand...

My understanding is there is no option of combining 2 approaches. Either you have to graduate from a qualified A&P program, or you have to have the required number of hours/months of practical experience. You can't do 1/2 at school and 1/2 work experience, unless you want to split the Airframe and Powerplant. For instance, you might be able to do the field experience for airframe and then do the powerplant portion at a school. When I went to school, it was offered to do either rating, or both. It really didn't save too much time because there were many required courses that were overlapping regardless of which rating you chose.
 
You can take the Light Sport Repairman Maintenance course. It is a 15 day program. Afterwards you can legally work on customer's S-LSA and E-LSA aircraft and perform the annual condition inspections. It's the fastest way to become a certificated repairman. The experience you gain working on customer's LSA counts toward A&P experience. This can be combined with the practical experience you can document working for an A&P.
 
Bell206 said:
Once an E/AB receives its AWC then the experience maintaining it can be used. But no building/manufacturing experience can be used. Been that way for quite some time and currently shown in Order 8900.1:
https://drs.faa.gov/browse/excelExternalWindow/DRSDOCID179259654820230109190625.0001
View attachment 115143

The experience evaluation is at the sole discretion of the FSDO ASI given the wide range of possibilities. They still follow the rules but the guidance gives them leeway on how the experience is accepted.
Click to expand...

So interpretation of that might mean hours spent rebuilding an experimental, which has an airworthiness certificate already, does count towards A&P certification hours?
 
FORANE said:
So interpretation of that might mean hours spent rebuilding an experimental, which has an airworthiness certificate already, does count towards A&P certification hours?
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In general, thats where the 8900.1 paragraph (1135) quoted in the EAA link comes into play. That "rebuilding" experience could be reviewed on its "merits" toward the 65.77 practical experience. Regardless it all up the reviewing ASI and its one type experience that needs to be approached carefully in this realm.
 
If I wore the ASI hat my thought would be that something with

“standard aircraft construction and engine” would be more acceptable than

other types. Experience with methods that would not be in 43.13-1 or some

mfg. Service Manual may not be beneficial.

ie. Welded tube may be viewed different than Fantastic Plastic.
 
Six. Not sure of your point.

Mine is if you want to be certificated to work on certificated aircraft your

experience should include techniques and materials used on certificated aircraft.

The Service Manual / 43.13 should illustrate that.

Some Exp. utilize non- standard methods.
 
A couple places (i.e. rainbow aviation) have 3 week courses where you can get an a Light Sport Repairman Maintenance certificate which allows you to perform the maintenance, the annual condition inspection, and the 100 hour inspections on Special Light Sport Aircraft and Experimental Light Sport Aircraft as a foot in the door.
 
Fine a Jr. college that has night school A&P classes.
One of my daughters did that while still working full time.
The school was in the Pacific Northwest.
 
I believe the curriculum requires 1800 hours.

Hard to do part time.
 
Magman said:
I believe the curriculum requires 1800 hours.
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FYI: Part 147 was rewritten last year which will change the previous curriculum basis by allowing other options, e.g., credit hour basis, performance based, in addition to the previous 1900 hours based curriculum. There is also a provision for distance learning. One "major" difference is they removed the old 147 Appdx B, C, D which were used as guidelines for those going the 65.77 practical experience requirements. There are a couple websites that get into more details on the changes.
 
Bell206 said:
FYI: Part 147 was rewritten last year which will change the previous curriculum basis by allowing other options, e.g., credit hour basis, performance based, in addition to the previous 1900 hours based curriculum. There is also a provision for distance learning. One "major" difference is they removed the old 147 Appdx B, C, D which were used as guidelines for those going the 65.77 practical experience requirements. There are a couple websites that get into more details on the changes.
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One link I found.
https://www.atec-amt.org/the-new-part-147.html
I went to a AP school last fall. IMO there was a lot of wasted time. In Sept 2022 the instructor pointed out the change to us. So when everyone understood what he was lecturing about, the class was over and we went home early. So that was a good thing. But in my opinion the whole thing could be taught in half the time and it should take 1 year and not 2 if you went full time. But that would not be good for the school, so ...

I went at night, 4 nights a week 2 classes for a semester. It would take almost 4 years to complete the course going 4 nights a week. It was too much for me to sit through wasting so much time in a classroom. It was more geared for a young person who had very little mechanical experience. I earned 6 credit hours in 4 months and 107 are needed to complete the course.
 
Last edited:
Ed Haywood said:
I'm approaching 60 and realizing life is short. I co-own a successful business and over the next 2 years will be dialing back my management role.

Currently I am rebuilding my Decathlon under supervision of a close friend who collects and restores vintage aircraft. I will probably log 500-1000 hours of experience by the time I am done this summer.

He's very game to help me get my A&P. He owns some crazy cool airplanes, including several big twin radials. I could get a lot of unique experience helping him work on them.

Thinking of how much I would enjoy working on my airplane and others in my semi-retirement. I really enjoy electrical and avionics work. I have a computer science degree with coursework in electrical engineering, so I find modern electronic devices easy to understand.

Should I continue to work with my buddy to log enough hours in all required areas to take the tests? At current rate that will take several years. Should I look into an accelerated program? How about a combination of the two approaches?
Click to expand...
Apprenticeship requires 30 months of full time equivalent experience. That’s 30 months of 40 hour work weeks. If you’re not working full time in a shop it takes many years beyond the 30 months. It took me five years to apprentice and I was working part time in a repair station for the majority of that experience.

School is two years. School is always faster.
 
If the Part Time is one or two nights per week it’s not faster.

Distance Learning could be helpful to many people.
 
Fracpilot said:
The FARs spell it out pretty clearly what’s required for the A&P. You still have to provide the documentation to prove you have the 18 months of experience (for A) or the 30 months experience for the A&P. FSDO buds have to follow the same rules.

Not only Bakers, I also recommend AeroTech in Spring,TX for the A&P prep. Located just north of IAH and easy to get to. I did mine at AeroTech and they’re more flexible on the hours unlike Bakers.
Click to expand...

Doesn’t one have to pass a practical test as well as book test? It is not just the hours (apprenticeship) or months (school).
 
Rcmutz said:
Doesn’t one have to pass a practical test as well as book test?
Click to expand...
Yep. The above discussion is just to get the FAA authorization form to take the 3 each written/oral/practical tests.
 
Magman said:
I believe the curriculum requires 1800 hours.

Hard to do part time.
Click to expand...

Yep. So when I retired, I continued to work as a consultant. In the same 1800 hours I made enough money to pay for my AnP services for many years of flying. Just saying. I still do owner assist on the annual, because once a year, I like to get really dirty. LOL

Edit: I notice my AnP doesn’t get to dirty. Maybe that’s what they learn in AnP school. :)
 
I attended a 147 school at night, total 2000 hours. Last I remember was 3000 hours needed for practical experience ( working experience ). This was over 10 years ago. Seems like we covered 40+ subjects in those 2 years. There were a few part time students who attended classes to satisfy the FSDO for their 4610
Minimum requirements. Good luck.
 
All part 147 schools are not created equal.

It may be wise to determine how each one satisfies the Practical requirements.

Some of the schools have really nice mock- ups.

That also means students never work on any “ live” aircraft.

Small schools may take in some projects as an alternative to mock-ups or buying

aircraft that never fly.

Having owners drop off fabric / paint projects and furnishings all materials can

benefit all involved.

At times; FBO’s may not like some of this but want to employ graduates with some

degree of experience.
 
When I applied for the repairman’s certificate for my RV-10 last year, the FAA rep encouraged me to use my 20+ years maintaining my RV-6 as a basis for the experience part of the A&P.

I have not pursued it since then.
 
FORANE said:
While I like this idea, I have read the hours building an experimental cannot count towards A&P certification.
Click to expand...
What about ground up restoration of a certified aircraft?
 
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