Help with ferry permit in Angelina / Lufkin/ Diboll tax

[Llk]

Hey everyone!

I’m trying to get a little 150 out of Lufkin, Texas- but there doesn’t seem to be anyone around the airport that can help with a ferry permit, so I thought I’d come to the main forum and ask….including airport management.

Thank you!

 

[Stewartb]

You submit for it electronically to the local FSDO.

https://www.faa.gov/about/office_org/field_offices/fsdo/phl/local_more/media/ferry_permit.pdf

 

[Bell206]

but there doesn’t seem to be anyone around the airport that can help with a ferry permit,

What's the reason for the SFP? Keep in mind not all things qualify. However, you'll still need someone with an A&P to sign the logbook..

 

[Randomskylane]

Is it good until used or do you refile every day until the weather is good? Does it take a day to process? A week? Tia

 

[mondtster]

A mechanic is not needed to obtain a special flight permit. Create a login and make the application.

https://awc.faa.gov/AWCExternalApplicant/Login/Login

What a mechanic is needed for is to perform an inspection and make sure the aircraft is safe to ferry. If the reason for the ferry permit is something simple it might be easier to bring a mechanic to the aircraft and make the repair there, since one is going to be needed to sign off for the SFP anyway.

 

[Llk]

Out of annual, former owner deceased. Need to relocate for annual

Still need an A&P


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[brcase]

Since I don't see any better answers here I will take a stab at it. I haven't done it but know a few people who have. Short answer find an A&P that can help you with it.
From what I understand...
Your current airworthiness Certificate is currently invalid for whatever reason, Airplane is out of annual is a common reason.
You will need to have an A&P submit the request to the FAA for a Special Airworthiness Certificate AKA a Ferry Permit. Note as I understand it this is a case where the documentation and real world don't really match up, Documentation seems to indicate the owner submits the request, real world is your A&P needs to do it.
The Ferry permit will specify the limitations for the flight and will have an expiration date I would guess 30 days. But that could vary.

Now we will see if anyone with more expertise than I can correct what I got wrong or add more detail.

Brian

 

[Stewartb]

An owner can apply. It will require a mechanic to sign it off as safe for the flight. You can specify a range of days to make the flight to allow for weather. Your route is defined and you can’t deviate from it. Don’t be intimidated. It’s simple. I do it more often than not for my annuals and I’m not a mechanic.

 

[mondtster]

Out of annual, former owner deceased. Need to relocate for annual

Still need an A&P

Who is the aircraft registered to? That may create problems.

 

[mondtster]

Since I don't see any better answers here I will take a stab at it. I haven't done it but know a few people who have. Short answer find an A&P that can help you with it.
From what I understand...
Your current airworthiness Certificate is currently invalid for whatever reason, Airplane is out of annual is a common reason.
You will need to have an A&P submit the request to the FAA for a Special Airworthiness Certificate AKA a Ferry Permit. Note as I understand it this is a case where the documentation and real world don't really match up, Documentation seems to indicate the owner submits the request, real world is your A&P needs to do it.
The Ferry permit will specify the limitations for the flight and will have an expiration date I would guess 30 days. But that could vary.

Now we will see if anyone with more expertise than I can correct what I got wrong or add more detail.

Brian

A mechanic does not need to submit the application for a ferry permit and it is actually easier if the owner deals directly with the FAA rather than having a mechanic play the middleman.

 

[455 Bravo Uniform]

Sent you a PM with one of my local contact’s info. Let us know how it turns out. We want pics…

 

[Llk]

Who is the aircraft registered to? That may create problems.

Got the bill of sale.

submitted it to the faa priority.

 

[mondtster]

Got the bill of sale.

submitted it to the faa priority.

I don't know what the guys at the FSDO will be able to see, but you may need to submit evidence of ownership along with the SFP application. The FSDO will not issue a SFP based on a third party request without some sort of authorization letter allowing them to act on the owner's behalf. That's why I say that it is easier for the owner to make the request directly rather than have a mechanic do all the legwork.

 

[Bell206]

Is it good until used or do you refile every day until the weather is good? Does it take a day to process? A week? Tia

How long the process takes depends on various factors but normally if the aircraft is ready to go you can get an SFP the same day. However, this can be subjective to the FSDO issuing the permit. For me, I normally had one in hand within 24 hours depending on when I started the process. The best method in my experience is don't get the SFP until you are ready to go and the weather is good unless you are running from the weather like a hurricane.

 

[flyingron]

Our FSDO (CLT) won't do SFPs for mechanics at all now. The owner needs to make the request (with a scan of the logbook page from a mechanic saying it's safe to make the flight). At least they turn them around in a few hours.

 

[brcase]

A mechanic does not need to submit the application for a ferry permit and it is actually easier if the owner deals directly with the FAA rather than having a mechanic play the middleman.

I know that is the book answer. I also know that an A&P needs to certify the airplane is airworthy for the flight, is this just an entry in the logbook that the owner needs to present to the Faa? Or something else?

Brian

 

[mondtster]

I know that is the book answer. I also know that an A&P needs to certify the airplane is airworthy for the flight, is this just an entry in the logbook that the owner needs to present to the Faa? Or something else?

Brian

Some FSDOs want to see the logbook entry prior to the issuance of the SFP. The FSDOs I’ve mainly dealt with in the north central US don’t seem to be concerned about that. The entry can be pretty basic, more or less stating that the aircraft has been inspected and is safe for a ferry flight from Kxxx to Kyyy. The ADs also need to be checked because some ADs restrict when they must be complied with and if a SFP can be issued to reposition the aircraft for compliance.

 

[Kritchlow]

This seems like a tuffy imo. What A&P would sign off an airplane out of annual as being safe, without doing an annual?

 

[Bell206]

This seems like a tuffy imo. What A&P would sign off an airplane out of annual as being safe, without doing an annual?

Your signing only that it is in a condition for safe flight not that it is airworthy. Big difference. Gets done all the time for a number of different reasons to include flying with known discrepancies.

 

[Jim_R]

This seems like a tuffy imo. What A&P would sign off an airplane out of annual as being safe, without doing an annual?

When I bought my plane, the seller delivered it to me via ferry permit because the annual had expired. Though common, not every aircraft is sold with a "fresh annual".

 

[brcase]

Our FSDO (CLT) won't do SFPs for mechanics at all now. The owner needs to make the request (with a scan of the logbook page from a mechanic saying it's safe to make the flight). At least they turn them around in a few hours.

Thanks for the feedback, I wonder and suspect that it Varies a bit with different FSDO’s.

Brian

 

[Kritchlow]

Your signing only that it is in a condition for safe flight not that it is airworthy. Big difference. Gets done all the time for a number of different reasons to include flying with known discrepancies.

I’m very familiar with that, but generally the A&P only needs to look at the one thing in question.
In the case of out of annual however…???

 

[mondtster]

Thanks for the feedback, I wonder and suspect that it Varies a bit with different FSDO’s.

Brian

It does vary, but as far as I know all the FSDOs now require the online application on the website I provided and every FSDO I’ve gotten a permit from required extra steps for a third party (mechanic) request prior to issuance.

The belief that a mechanic must request the permit seems to have been created within the flight instructor community and continues to be transmitted to the next generation of pilots.

 

[Kritchlow]

It does vary, but as far as I know all the FSDOs now require the online application on the website I provided and every FSDO I’ve gotten a permit from required extra steps for a third party (mechanic) request prior to issuance.

The belief that a mechanic must request the permit seems to have been created within the flight instructor community and continues to be transmitted to the next generation of pilots.

I don’t think the mechanic needs to be the requestor, but don’t they still need to sign the permit?

 

[mondtster]

I don’t think the mechanic needs to be the requestor, but don’t they still need to sign the permit?

No. They need to make a logbook entry in the maintenance records.

 

[Kritchlow]

No. They need to make a logbook entry in the maintenance records.

Isn’t that pretty much the same thing?

Perhaps I’m misinformed.

 

[mondtster]

Isn’t that pretty much the same thing?

Perhaps I’m misinformed.

The special flight permit is essentially a special airworthiness certificate that is valid for a very specific purpose. This is reinforced by the fact that you apply for the SFP through the same website that you would apply for other airworthiness certificates. The terms of the SFP will be listed on it, which commonly includes things such as required crew only, day VFR, that the aircraft must be inspected prior to ferry, etc. The mechanic signs the logbook after determining that the aircraft is safe to fly, not airworthiness certificate.

 

[Kritchlow]

The special flight permit is essentially a special airworthiness certificate that is valid for a very specific purpose. This is reinforced by the fact that you apply for the SFP through the same website that you would apply for other airworthiness certificates. The terms of the SFP will be listed on it, which commonly includes things such as required crew only, day VFR, that the aircraft must be inspected prior to ferry, etc. The mechanic signs the logbook after determining that the aircraft is safe to fly, not airworthiness certificate.

I do understand all of that. My point is that it really doesn’t matter what piece of paper he signs, as he is still stating the same thing.

What I don’t understand is how the A&P can attest the airplane is safe to fly past annual without doing an annual.

 

[Tools]

He’s not saying it’s as safe to fly as if he’d done an annual. He’s saying it’s safe ENOUGH. The extra risk is mitigated by the restrictions imposed by the ferry permit. Such as now, vfr, no pax.

The ferry permit application process lets the FAA get a little bite of the apple. It’s days out of annual, fine. It’s 25 years… they may not issue. Going to ferry 50 miles, go. Want to ferry 1,000 miles, no go.

The FAA allows and supports judgement calls. You as a pilot certify that airplane is airworthy every time you take it airborne.

The FAA allows a pilot to certify something broke as not a hazard to flight, as long as the conditions of 14.205 and 14.213 are satisfied.

If 100% certainty was required, no airplane would fly.

 

[Bell206]

What I don’t understand is how the A&P can attest the airplane is safe to fly past annual without doing an annual.

Keep in mind the whole purpose of the SFP is to allow an unairworthy aircraft to fly legally. Part of that process is for an A&P or CRS to determine that aircraft will not crash and burn on that special flight. So technically the annual is moot and it is strictly a judgement call on the AP or CRS. SFPs are issued for all sorts of unairworthy issues.

For example, I've thrown togather aircraft in the middle of an annual, obtained a SFP, and flew it out of harms way. Also once saw a 4 engine aircraft SFP'd to take off on only 3 engines. Now the FSDO can request additional checks/inspections if they so desire which I've performed as well. But it boils down to the mechanics determination which is really no diferent than making other determinations in my experience.

Perhaps I’m misinformed.

The hardcopy SPF signed by the ASI or DAR takes the place of the AWC. For that SPF to be valid it requires an entry in the aircraft record by an AP or CRS. Two documents/entries and two signatures. In a couple instances the owner didn't have his logbooks so I made my entry on the back of the SFP paper which then became part of the record.

 

[flyingron]

I don’t think the mechanic needs to be the requestor, but don’t they still need to sign the permit?

No, they only need to sign a logbook page saying the flight is safe.

 

[schmookeeg]

I do understand all of that. My point is that it really doesn’t matter what piece of paper he signs, as he is still stating the same thing.

What I don’t understand is how the A&P can attest the airplane is safe to fly past annual without doing an annual.

This seems predicated on the idea that an airplane will fall out of the sky and burn on the 366th day since its last annual?

 

[mondtster]

This seems predicated on the idea that an airplane will fall out of the sky and burn on the 366th day since its last annual?

Not to mention that a pilot can decide that an aircraft is safe for flight on the 364th day but the mechanic is unable to determine it on the 366th.

As a mechanic, my standards for airworthiness and what I will fly are far more stringent than most non-mechanic pilots so the question is fairly easy - would I fly the aircraft regardless of its paperwork condition? If the answer is yes then the signature is easy.

 

[Kritchlow]

Not to mention that a pilot can decide that an aircraft is safe for flight on the 364th day but the mechanic is unable to determine it on the 366th.

As a mechanic, my standards for airworthiness and what I will fly are far more stringent than most non-mechanic pilots so the question is fairly easy - would I fly the aircraft regardless of its paperwork condition? If the answer is yes then the signature is easy.

I’m not really speaking from a practical standpoint, but rather the A&P sticking his neck out.
A single mx issue that requires a FP can be examined and deemed safe (or not). My point was simply for an A&P to attest an out of annual plane is safe, it would seem there are numerous things to look at.

Regardless, it doesn’t affect me. I was just curious.

 

[Craig]

The ferry permit application process lets the FAA get a little bite of the apple. It’s days out of annual, fine. It’s 25 years… they may not issue. Going to ferry 50 miles, go. Want to ferry 1,000 miles, no go.

A long ferry can be approved for certain reasons. We had a Falcon 20 get damaged on a trip. We had to make one set of inspections so that we could request a ferry permit back to home base, a trip of about 1300 miles due to routing and fuel requirements. It wouldn't have made sense to anyone to not approve it, as we were a Falcon repair station. Want to ferry your common aircraft, that dozens of people work on, then probably not. A Falcon 20, with the gear pinned down, in the dead of winter and having to stay under 10K feet, is not a fun ferry.

 

[mondtster]

I’m not really speaking from a practical standpoint, but rather the A&P sticking his neck out.
A single mx issue that requires a FP can be examined and deemed safe (or not). My point was simply for an A&P to attest an out of annual plane is safe, it would seem there are numerous things to look at.

Regardless, it doesn’t affect me. I was just curious.

How do you decide an aircraft is safe to fly when it is in annual? It’s not terribly different.

I guess I don’t think I’ve stuck my neck out that far on the out of annual aircraft I’ve signed them off to ferry. Oftentimes I’m doing the ferrying or deeply involved with it as well so I want to know for my own sake that the aircraft is fine. For a simple light airplane or helicopter I’ve found it easier to just annual it at its location if there aren’t issues that are identified which would prevent that from happening.

 

[Kenny Phillips]

Certainly I'd be interested in how long out of annual, or better yet, how long since this 150 has flown, was it stored outside, etc. If it's been a year or more, I'd try to find someone on the field to annual it!
I had to get a permit when weather prevented moving my plane until after the annual expired; it was only good for a very short time, but this was more than a decade ago.

 

[Bell206]

My point was simply for an A&P to attest an out of annual plane is safe, it would seem there are numerous things to look at.

I guess it depends on how you look at things. With annuals, I look at the time frame its been overdue and judge what things I need to look at for the flight. The longer the time the more I would generally look at. But at no time would I break out an annual checklist to complete the check. Its the special flight that is the priority in my view vs the reason per se. Also keep in mind SFPs get issued with no inspection performed. For example, when an AD gets issued and allows ferry flights the SFP will generally be issued to the owner to get it inspected with no AP involved or any pre-inspection performed related to that AD. I've signed off a number of SFPs and not signed some so for me it boils done to the specific aircraft and the flight at hand.

 

[PPC1052]

I do understand all of that. My point is that it really doesn’t matter what piece of paper he signs, as he is still stating the same thing.

What I don’t understand is how the A&P can attest the airplane is safe to fly past annual without doing an annual.

I have wondered that, too. Being a civil defense lawyer, I would be very reluctant to sign, because I have seen what arguments plaintiff's lawyers will make.

I once had a case involving a burned-up Bombardier Challenger that was totaled in a hangar fire. A salvage company bought the plane, and got a ferry permit to fly it back to their junk yard to part it out. I always wondered who would sign off on the maintenance logs, but someone did.

(ok, "burned-up" is a bit of an exaggeration. But it was in a hanger fire, the outer skin covered in roof tar droppings, the nose cone and skin was heat damaged, the whole plane had smoke damage, and it was declared a total loss by the insurance carrier.)

 

[PPC1052]

Not to mention that a pilot can decide that an aircraft is safe for flight on the 364th day but the mechanic is unable to determine it on the 366th.

If we are being pedantic, the number of days that the pilot can determine it is still safe to fly varies depending on the length of the month and the day of the month in which the last annual was completed. I guess a plane that had its annual completed on February 1 is inherently less safe than a plane that came out of annual on March 1, but inherently more safe than an aircraft that came out of annual on February 28. Which I think strengthens the point you are making.