I knew someone would bring that up. I wasn’t in the mood to write all that out to illustrate the point.
Help with ferry permit in Angelina / Lufkin/ Diboll tax
- Thread starter Llk
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I knew someone would bring that up. I wasn’t in the mood to write all that out to illustrate the point.
I knew someone would bring that up. I wasn’t in the mood to write all that out to illustrate the point.
Yep. But I thought that it further illustrated the point you were making-- the arbitrariness of a single day past the expiration of the annual.
schmookeeg
En-Route
I have to assume THAT signature was by a person with no assets to speak of worth attaching in judgement.
I guess as shop rates push upward, this is gonna be a bigger problem -- more A&Ps will be worth suing, meaning fewer signatures -- which still constricts the supply of maintenance actions like SFP. Interesting times ahead!
Given plaintiffs attorneys seem to make arguments regardless the facts or the truth of the situation, it shouldn't be an issue when making maintenance decisions in my opinion. Thats what insurance is for. That said, I prefer to follow a path that is supported by existing guidance and consensus which will at least make those attorneys work for their nickel should a case arise. Its when one doesn’t follow the existing guidance and consensus that leaves them an easy target, ripe for the picking.
SoonerAviator
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Wonder how many aircraft out of annual magically made a flight to the mechanic at another airport without the FAA ferry paperwork . . . sounds like one of those "they won't find out unless we crash" kind of things.
schmookeeg
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Kritchlow
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I know you are joking, but for the benefit of others… an ASRS report will not give you any protection if you knowingly / intentionally don’t follow FAR’s.It is certainly easier to file an ASRS report than secure an SFP lately.
Ok.
Different FSDO s are different.
Some want the permit app filed and the permit is issued contingent upon the mechanics signature, others want the signature in advance as seems to be the case in Houston.
I also think it may have some variance by inspector.
I finally found a mechanic on the field- exceptional man who has been flying out of there since 67. Navy P3 pilot, funny as cab be.
Lesson is you, the pilot, request the permit and your mechanic signs off that the airplane is safe for flight.
Lesson from a different A&P, it’s always best if you call the FSDO ahead to grease the skids. Since everything is moving online ar the FAA, the ferry permit app is there along with many others like asking for a duplicate airworthiness permit.
Thanks everyone…
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Different FSDO s are different.
Some want the permit app filed and the permit is issued contingent upon the mechanics signature, others want the signature in advance as seems to be the case in Houston.
I also think it may have some variance by inspector.
I finally found a mechanic on the field- exceptional man who has been flying out of there since 67. Navy P3 pilot, funny as cab be.
Lesson is you, the pilot, request the permit and your mechanic signs off that the airplane is safe for flight.
Lesson from a different A&P, it’s always best if you call the FSDO ahead to grease the skids. Since everything is moving online ar the FAA, the ferry permit app is there along with many others like asking for a duplicate airworthiness permit.
Thanks everyone…
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Lindberg
Final Approach
As a fellow litigator, if I made life decisions based on the arguments plaintiff's lawyers will make, I'd never leave my house.
But would you sign your name to a document certifying that you determined it was safe to do so?
Lindberg
Final Approach
Certainly, if that was my profession.
Kritchlow
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And that goes to my original question (not that I want to keep this going, but…)
Just how would you determine it’s safe? Seems like you would need to do an inspection on every item on the annual.
When you perform a pre-flight before you fly an aircraft, how do you determine the aircraft is safe to fly?
Kritchlow
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But there’s one major difference. The airplane is not out of annual.
Wouldn’t it be nice to just do a walk around and have that count as an annual.
Thats the point you're missing. The annual status doesnt matter. I look at the plane just like you do to sign it off under a SFP. If it has been sitting for an extented time I will look at more items.
For example, if you walked up to an aircraft that had not flown in 11 months but was in annual would you do a normal preflight and go fly?
The annual is more an airworthiness requirement than a safe flight issue if that makes sense. Of all the SFP I've signed off out-dated annuals and AD compliance ones are the easiest. Signing SFPs for broken/inop items are the ones that give me pause at times.
Kritchlow
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Whatever… I can’t open inspection panels and I don’t have the knowledge of an A&P to judge if an airplane is airworthy from that point of view.
If pilots could do that I suppose we would never need an annual.
Thats the point. A Special Flight Permit will not be issued unless the aircraft is unairworthy. If one does the "annual" then it wont qualify for the SFP.
Kritchlow
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I understand all of that. My point is just how can the A&P certify it safe for flight without looking at all issues in an annual? What items should the look at, and which should they just assume are safe for flight?
Regardless, at this point we are just talking in circles, so I’ll let it go for now.
How do you determine an aircraft is safe for flight prior to taking off in it?
Agree on the circles. I look at whatever I personally determine needs to be looked at before signing the SFP. Full stop. Its the authority given to me under my A&P. It is what it is.
Kritchlow
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1) ensure required inspections are complete
2) walk around
3) no open write ups
You?
Bell’s and my point is that the mechanic’s determination that an aircraft is safe for a ferry flight may consist of the same thing, and nothing more depending on the circumstances. Even though I could, I don’t perform an annual inspection or anything close to it every time I go fly, yet I’ve determined it is safe for the flight I’m about to take.
schmookeeg
En-Route
I feel like it's black and white worldview at odds with a shades of gray worldview.
Mechanics have no crystal balls. They're betting the plane will make the flight without incident. Prior performance and activity informs the odds. The reason for unairworthiness informs the inspection and emphasis items needed to be assured there's a reasonable chance the plane is fit to fly.
It would probably be more honest to have the attestation for SFP be "I'm 95% certain this plane will be able to make this flight without becoming a flaming deathcookie based on my cursory understanding of its history and my brief peek at its bones", but I don't think the feds would be amused with that much truth in writing.
Mechanics have no crystal balls. They're betting the plane will make the flight without incident. Prior performance and activity informs the odds. The reason for unairworthiness informs the inspection and emphasis items needed to be assured there's a reasonable chance the plane is fit to fly.
It would probably be more honest to have the attestation for SFP be "I'm 95% certain this plane will be able to make this flight without becoming a flaming deathcookie based on my cursory understanding of its history and my brief peek at its bones", but I don't think the feds would be amused with that much truth in writing.
Lindberg
Final Approach
Expiration of the annual does not make an aircraft unsafe it makes it unairworthy. The former is a factual condition, the later is a legal condition. If an aircraft is unsafe when the annual expires, it was unsafe before, too. So no change there. And it only has to be signed off that the A&P doesn't think the aircraft is going to fall apart on a single flight, not for whatever flights might happen over the course of a year.
Of course not every A&P is going to sign off in every ferry permit in all circumstances; that's the point of the requirement.
And that distinction is the crux of this post.
The FSDO kept using the worth “airworthy” (new guy, good guy) versus “safe for ferry flight.”
Airworthiness=annual completed
Safe for ferry flight=inspection to the mechanic’s satisfaction to lend his signature
YMMV.
I’m in the middle of another similar ferry; while the aircraft is out of annual, and it was returned to service after a maintenance event, somebody wants the engine pulled…we will see.
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The FSDO kept using the worth “airworthy” (new guy, good guy) versus “safe for ferry flight.”
Airworthiness=annual completed
Safe for ferry flight=inspection to the mechanic’s satisfaction to lend his signature
YMMV.
I’m in the middle of another similar ferry; while the aircraft is out of annual, and it was returned to service after a maintenance event, somebody wants the engine pulled…we will see.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk