BFR...Does IPC Count?

VWGhiaBob

VWGhiaBob

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VWGhiaBob
I could probably find this with an hour of digging through FAR’s, but if someone knows, I’d appreciate it.

I recently passed an Instrument Proficiency Check, which included oral and flight tests. Now I have a BFR coming up in December. Question...can either the oral or flight portion of the IPC count for the part or all of the BFR? Based on past BFR’s, my flight test in the IPC was a lot more difficult than the BFR, so it seems like it would count.

Any guidance appreciated!

Thank you.
 
VWGhiaBob said:
I could probably find this with an hour of digging through FAR’s, but if someone knows, I’d appreciate it.

I recently passed an Instrument Proficiency Check, which included oral and flight tests. Now I have a BFR coming up in December. Question...can either the oral or flight portion of the IPC count for the part or all of the BFR? Based on past BFR’s, my flight test in the IPC was a lot more difficult than the BFR, so it seems like it would count.

Any guidance appreciated!

Thank you.
Click to expand...

First, you can't fail an IPC...you get signed off that you are proficient, that's it. So you really didn't "pass", you just got signed off on as being proficient, again.

You can combine an IPC with a BFR, but they are two different things designed to test you on different concepts. They share SOME things.

A BFR/IPC all in one day can be a LOT of stuff for most people. Check out: 14 CFR 61.56(h):

“The requirements of this section [14 CFR 61.56, the BFR] may be accomplished in combination with the requirements of § 61.57 and other applicable recent experience requirements at the discretion of the authorized instructor conducting the flight review.”
 
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No, it does not automatically count for anything towards your flight review. You can, through coordination with your CFI, combine the two, or avoid duplication, but that's up to you and your CFI and what they are willing to agree to do.
 
Page A-12 of the Instrument Rating ‒ Airplane Airman Certification Standards contains the requirements for an IPC. Note that it does not require the 1 hour of ground required by §61.56 (a) (1) but it could satisfy §61.56 (a) (2). Also note that an IPC can mostly be satisfied in an ATD or simulator which does not satisfy the flight portion of the BFR.

§61.56 Flight review.
(a) Except as provided in paragraphs (b) and (f) of this section, a flight review consists of a minimum of 1 hour of flight training and 1 hour of ground training. The review must include:

(1) A review of the current general operating and flight rules of part 91 of this chapter; and

(2) A review of those maneuvers and procedures that, at the discretion of the person giving the review, are necessary for the pilot to demonstrate the safe exercise of the privileges of the pilot certificate.
 
According to FAR 61.56...

(c) Except as provided in paragraphs (d), (e) and (g)
of this section, no person may act as pilot in com-
mand of an aircraft unless, since the beginning of
the 24th calendar month before the month in
which that pilot acts as pilot in command, that
person has—
(1) Accomplished a flight review given in an air-
craft for which that pilot is rated by an autho-
rized instructor; and
(2) A logbook endorsed from an authorized
instructor who gave the review certifying that
the person has satisfactorily completed the
review.
(d) A person who has, within the period specified in
paragraph (c) of this section, passed a pilot profi-
ciency check conducted by an examiner, an
approved pilot check airman, or a U.S. Armed
Force, for a pilot certificate, rating, or operating
privilege, need not accomplish the flight review
required by this section.
(e) A person who has, within the period specified in
paragraph (c) of this section, satisfactorily accom-
plished one or more phases of an FAA-sponsored
pilot proficiency award program need not accom-
plish the flight review required by this section.

And, interpreted by AOPA/ASF's Pilot's Guide to the Flight Review,

2. What can take the place of a flight review?
The following serve as exemptions:
• FAR Section 61.58 pilot proficiency check
• FAR Part 121 pilot proficiency check
• FAR Part 135 pilot proficiency check
• FAR Part 141 chief pilot proficiency check
• Military pilot proficiency check
• Other proficiency checks administered by
the FAA
• Pilot examiner annual flight check
• Flight test for any certificate or rating
• Operations specifically authorized by
the FAA
• Satisfactory completion of any phase of the
FAA “Wings” program


HOWEVER... that same document states the following unequivocally ...

Does an instrument proficiency check serve as
a flight review?
No. The instructor may combine the two functions
during the same flight, however. In that case, the
pilot’s logbook must be endorsed for an instrument
proficiency check and a flight review.

As usual, it doesn't seem clear upon the first couple reads as to whether or not an instrument profiency check would be accepted. Subsection d above, which reads, "A person who has..passed a pilot proficiency check conducted by an examiner, an approved pilot check airman, or a U.S. Armed Force, for a pilot certificate, rating, or operating privilege, need not accomplish the flight review required by this section," would seem to indicate that it COULD be used in place of a BFR. Is not an Instrument Proficiency Check ... "conducted by an examiner...for a pilot... operating privilege," i.e., for the privilege of IFR flight operations? And.. is it not one of the bullet points in the AOPA document, "Other proficiency check(s) administered by the FAA?"

If you had mentioned the need in the near future of a BFR to your IPC examiner, he/she probably could have just given both endorsements in your logbook at that time. Maybe ask that person for assistance?
 
CFII should have done you a solid and signed it off as both since you probably satisfied 61.56
 
I do not believe they can be combined to count for each.

I did both (BFR - IPC) while completing my transition training in our new to us Commander 112A. I was beat after two days of flying.

The numbers for Day 1
Flight time 6.5 Hours
Full stop landings 18
Ground Instruction 2.2 Hours
Biennial Flight Review (BFR)

The numbers for Day 2
Flight time 4.8 Hours
Full stop landings 10
Ground Instruction 2 Hours
Instrument Proficiency Check (IPC)
 
GMascelli said:
I do not believe they can be combined to count for each.
Click to expand...

They can be combined in one, just hast to be done and documented as one, just like an endorsement can be done at the same time, but it has to cover necessary items and be documented as such.
 
MuseChaser said:
As usual, it doesn't seem clear upon the first couple reads as to whether or not an instrument profiency check would be accepted. Subsection d above, which reads, "A person who has..passed a pilot proficiency check conducted by an examiner, an approved pilot check airman, or a U.S. Armed Force, for a pilot certificate, rating, or operating privilege, need not accomplish the flight review required by this section," would seem to indicate that it COULD be used in place of a BFR. Is not an Instrument Proficiency Check ... "conducted by an examiner...for a pilot... operating privilege," i.e., for the privilege of IFR flight operations? And.. is it not one of the bullet points in the AOPA document, "Other proficiency check(s) administered by the FAA?"
Click to expand...

An IPC is not conducted by an examiner, it is conducted by an instructor. Big difference. A "pilot proficiency check" is that type of training you would typically get through a formal training course, such as a Part 142 simulator course (CAE, FLightSafety), or by airline training, etc. Not the typical IPC.
 
Since what constitutes the 1 hr or air work for a BFR is completely left up to the CFI then I see no issue with the airwork for an IPC counting towards the BFR airwork requirement (2 birds with one stone so to speak). All that would need to be done to complete the BFR would be 1 hr of ground instruction and separate log book entries for the IPC and BFR. Now whether it's a good idea or not, I'll refrain from commenting on as that's up to each individual and his or her CFI.
 
RussR said:
An IPC is not conducted by an examiner, it is conducted by an instructor. Big difference. A "pilot proficiency check" is that type of training you would typically get through a formal training course, such as a Part 142 simulator course (CAE, FLightSafety), or by airline training, etc. Not the typical IPC.
Click to expand...

That helps clarify the situation. I've never done an IPC and am only maybe halfway through my admittedly sporadic IR training. I may be recalling this incorrectly, but at one point years ago when I was flying regularly w/ my CFI towards the IR and my BFR came due, I believe he signed off on it because we were currently training towards another rating, and we didn't do anything specifically different towards a BFR. I could be wrong. I see above in the regs that for training towards another rating to count, you have to actually achieve that rating now.

With that exception, I've done all of my BFRs through the Wings program and flights with my CFI.
 
VWGhiaBob said:
I could probably find this with an hour of digging through FAR’s, but if someone knows, I’d appreciate it.

I recently passed an Instrument Proficiency Check, which included oral and flight tests. Now I have a BFR coming up in December. Question...can either the oral or flight portion of the IPC count for the part or all of the BFR? Based on past BFR’s, my flight test in the IPC was a lot more difficult than the BFR, so it seems like it would count.

Any g
MuseChaser said:
According to FAR 61.56...

(c) Except as provided in paragraphs (d), (e) and (g)
of this section, no person may act as pilot in com-
mand of an aircraft unless, since the beginning of
the 24th calendar month before the month in
which that pilot acts as pilot in command, that
person has—
(1) Accomplished a flight review given in an air-
craft for which that pilot is rated by an autho-
rized instructor; and
(2) A logbook endorsed from an authorized
instructor who gave the review certifying that
the person has satisfactorily completed the
review.
(d) A person who has, within the period specified in
paragraph (c) of this section, passed a pilot profi-
ciency check conducted by an examiner, an
approved pilot check airman, or a U.S. Armed
Force, for a pilot certificate, rating, or operating
privilege, need not accomplish the flight review
required by this section.
(e) A person who has, within the period specified in
paragraph (c) of this section, satisfactorily accom-
plished one or more phases of an FAA-sponsored
pilot proficiency award program need not accom-
plish the flight review required by this section.

And, interpreted by AOPA/ASF's Pilot's Guide to the Flight Review,

2. What can take the place of a flight review?
The following serve as exemptions:
• FAR Section 61.58 pilot proficiency check
• FAR Part 121 pilot proficiency check
• FAR Part 135 pilot proficiency check
• FAR Part 141 chief pilot proficiency check
• Military pilot proficiency check
• Other proficiency checks administered by
the FAA
• Pilot examiner annual flight check
• Flight test for any certificate or rating
• Operations specifically authorized by
the FAA
• Satisfactory completion of any phase of the
FAA “Wings” program


HOWEVER... that same document states the following unequivocally ...

Does an instrument proficiency check serve as
a flight review?
No. The instructor may combine the two functions
during the same flight, however. In that case, the
pilot’s logbook must be endorsed for an instrument
proficiency check and a flight review.

As usual, it doesn't seem clear upon the first couple reads as to whether or not an instrument profiency check would be accepted. Subsection d above, which reads, "A person who has..passed a pilot proficiency check conducted by an examiner, an approved pilot check airman, or a U.S. Armed Force, for a pilot certificate, rating, or operating privilege, need not accomplish the flight review required by this section," would seem to indicate that it COULD be used in place of a BFR. Is not an Instrument Proficiency Check ... "conducted by an examiner...for a pilot... operating privilege," i.e., for the privilege of IFR flight operations? And.. is it not one of the bullet points in the AOPA document, "Other proficiency check(s) administered by the FAA?"

If you had mentioned the need in the near future of a BFR to your IPC examiner, he/she probably could have just given both endorsements in your logbook at that time. Maybe ask that person for assistance?
Click to expand...

Wow...thanks very much for the detailed response...all clear and much appreciated!
Click to expand...
 
MuseChaser said:
That helps clarify the situation. I've never done an IPC and am only maybe halfway through my admittedly sporadic IR training. I may be recalling this incorrectly, but at one point years ago when I was flying regularly w/ my CFI towards the IR and my BFR came due, I believe he signed off on it because we were currently training towards another rating, and we didn't do anything specifically different towards a BFR. I could be wrong. I see above in the regs that for training towards another rating to count, you have to actually achieve that rating now.

With that exception, I've done all of my BFRs through the Wings program and flights with my CFI.
Click to expand...

Nothing's changed. Passing a checkride for a new rating WILL serve as a Flight Review, as detailed in 61.56. But like you had happen, sometimes during the course of training you come due on a flight review anyway but aren't ready for the checkride yet. If the CFI feels that you have covered adequate material in your training (both ground and flight), then they certainly can sign you off for a FR as well.

I've done this occasionally. Remember, the FR is pretty open-ended as far as what is required. It boils down to 1 hr of ground that at least covers Part 91 in some way, and 1 hr of flight that covers maneuvers the CFI thinks are important for you. That's it. If I've been training someone toward their instrument rating, then I certainly have done a lot of ground, including lots of coverage of Part 91. I also have been doing flight maneuvers with them that I think are important. So I can reasonably sign off the FR on that basis. Maybe on one flight I'll throw in a few stalls or steep turns or have them do a short-field landing from the instrument approach, etc. But that's the CFI's discretion.

So your CFI didn't sign off your flight review BECAUSE you were working toward another rating - he signed it off because during the course of working toward that rating, he deemed you covered adequate material to count.
 
I did a 182 checkout and FR done together, but there are a lot more similarities there. I’m just an IR student, but a FR involves VFR stuff and maneuvers that tend to review a PPL checkride (discretion of CFI). The ground stuff would have overlap. Bottom line just talk with your CFI ahead of time so the expectations are clear.
 
MuseChaser said:
Does an instrument proficiency check serve as
a flight review?
No. The instructor may combine the two functions during the same flight, however. In that case, the pilot’s logbook must be endorsed for an instrument proficiency check and a flight review.
Click to expand...
woodchucker said:
Bottom line just talk with your CFI ahead of time so the expectations are clear.
Click to expand...

It is as simple as that. The IPC requires specific tasks. The flight review tasks are CFI- discretion. I combine them regularly.
 
midlifeflyer said:
It is as simple as that. The IPC requires specific tasks. The flight review tasks are CFI- discretion. I combine them regularly.
Click to expand...

By regulation what specific tasks?

This is still pretty general:

(i) Air traffic control clearances and procedures;

(ii) Flight by reference to instruments;

(iii) Navigation systems;

(iv) Instrument approach procedures;

(v) Emergency operations; and

(vi) Postflight procedures
 
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EdFred said:
By regulation what specific tasks?

This is still pretty general:

(i) Air traffic control clearances and procedures;

(ii) Flight by reference to instruments;

(iii) Navigation systems;

(iv) Instrument approach procedures;

(v) Emergency operations; and

(vi) Postflight procedures
Click to expand...
Not by regulation. But the FAA's stated policy is that the change in the language did not mean a change in the requirement to use the ACS PC task table. Whether that policy is enforceable or not may be open to question, but I'm not particularly interested in becoming a test case to prove it.
 
midlifeflyer said:
Not by regulation. But the FAA's stated policy is that the change in the language did not mean a change in the requirement to use the ACS PC task table. Whether that policy is enforceable or not may be open to question, but I'm not particularly interested in becoming a test case to prove it.
Click to expand...

I look at it this way, they are pretty specific with the self maintained currency through regulation. If they want specifics for the IPC, then it should also be via regulation, not advisement.
 
EdFred said:
I look at it this way, they are pretty specific with the self maintained currency through regulation. If they want specifics for the IPC, then it should also be via regulation, not advisement.
Click to expand...
“My Dearest Chef Counsel,

For my last 7 IPCs, I have been in blatant violation of the guidance in the instrument PTS/ACS, while still complying with the letter of the reg. Could you please tell the rest of the idiots in your FAA that they need to either change the reg or come and arrest me so I can be a test case? I need to settle a discussion on POA.

**** you very much.

Yours truly,
EdFred”
 
Nope. I ain't writing no CC letters!

I've actually only had 1 IPC. I just self maintain.
 
MauleSkinner said:
“My Dearest Chef Counsel,

For my last 7 IPCs, I have been in blatant violation of the guidance in the instrument PTS/ACS, while still complying with the letter of the reg. Could you please tell the rest of the idiots in your FAA that they need to either change the reg or come and arrest me so I can be a test case? I need to settle a discussion on POA.

**** you very much.

Yours truly,
EdFred”
Click to expand...
That wouldn't be an accurate letter. For some time until last year, the "letter of the reg" specified the use of the PC table.

Before that, the reg did not specify, although the guidance did. The language of the reg was different than the new version also. A flight training operation was cited by the FAA for not following the guidance. Specifically the operation did all its IPCs in a sim, so never did the approach to landing task. The flight training operation won because the regulation did not specify specific tasks.

That's why I used the phrase "open to question" although I don't "look at it" the same was EdFred does. It's way too easy to comply and, unlike him, I do give and receive IPCs.
 
61.51 Pilot logbooks.
(a) Training time and aeronautical experience. Each person must document and record the following time in a manner acceptable to the Administrator:

(1) Training and aeronautical experience used to meet the requirements for a certificate, rating, or flight review of this part.

61.189 Flight instructor records.
(a) A flight instructor must sign the logbook of each person to whom that instructor has given flight training or ground training.

61.195 Flight instructor limitations and qualifications.
A person who holds a flight instructor certificate is subject to the following limitations:
d) Limitations on endorsements. A flight instructor may not endorse a:
5) Logbook of a pilot for a flight review, unless that instructor has conducted a review of that pilot in accordance with the requirements of §61.56(a) of this part; or
(6) Logbook of a pilot for an instrument proficiency check, unless that instructor has tested that pilot in accordance with the requirements of §61.57(d) of this part.

61.56 Flight review.
(a) Except as provided in paragraphs (b) and (f) of this section, a flight review consists of a minimum of 1 hour of flight training and 1 hour of ground training.

(1) A review of the current general operating and flight rules of part 91 of this chapter; and

(2) A review of those maneuvers and procedures that, at the discretion of the person giving the review, are necessary for the pilot to demonstrate the safe exercise of the privileges of the pilot certificate

c) Except as provided in paragraphs (d), (e), and (g) of this section, no person may act as pilot in command of an aircraft unless, since the beginning of the 24th calendar month before the month in which that pilot acts as pilot in command, that person has—

(1) Accomplished a flight review given in an aircraft for which that pilot is rated by an authorized instructor and
(2) A logbook endorsed from an authorized instructor who gave the review certifying that the person has satisfactorily completed the review.



61.57 Recent flight experience: Pilot in command.
(d) Instrument proficiency check. (1) Except as provided in paragraph (e) of this section, a person who has failed to meet the instrument experience requirements of paragraph (c) of this section for more than six calendar months may reestablish instrument currency only by completing an instrument proficiency check. The instrument proficiency check must consist of at least the following areas of operation:

(i) Air traffic control clearances and procedures;

(ii) Flight by reference to instruments;

(iii) Navigation systems;

(iv) Instrument approach procedures;

(v) Emergency operations; and

(vi) Postflight procedures.


Yes, they can be combined, but the CFI and pilot has to meet all the requirements. An IPC alone is not training if you show up and only demonstrate you meet the IFR standards.
 
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