mscard88
Touchdown! Greaser!
FAA allows it, rather the CFARs do. They don't allow it in the 135/121 worlds.
5 related adults dead in Cessna 340 crash
- Thread starter olasek
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FAA allows it, rather the CFARs do. They don't allow it in the 135/121 worlds.
Tantalum
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I don't think they're being ignored (for the most part), but this thread drifted to a philosophical debate about ADM, and some people did speak in absolutes. As far as the accident plane, we really don't know. He could have been a weekend warrior with 10 hrs of actual IMC, or a seasoned IR pilot who attends simcom, etc. I just don't want to indict him as an idiot (at least not yet)
I'd be curious too, at least for educational reasons. Maybe someone can find some text on it
Kritchlow
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If they are current and competent... I do feel 1/4 is a NON ISSUE. Not even a close call really.
Now, if you’re talking emergency return there are other considerations.
Cooter
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I was, but that doesn't mean I stayed proficient at it. The likelihood of a private pilot staying as proficient at it as an airline guy, is small. Not that it can't happen and some guys don't set very rigorous standards for themselves, and stay accountable to them. But, this is where the mixing of categories I mentioned earlier happens. It can be very misleading to lump airline guys, and private pilots with IR into the same category.
Cooter
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I don't either, and I do understand the other points of view.
But I don't think considering airline pilots and private pilots with an IR the same is a good idea when it comes to operating in poor weather conditions. One group is held to very strict standards, and another is loosely regulated. The margin for error in one, is not the same as in the other. Sure overlap happens and there are weak airline guys, and strong private pilots. But categorically, they are distinct. The decision matrix is different as well.
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azblackbird
Pattern Altitude
That's my theory of what happened.
Kritchlow
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Indeed.... that’s one reason I added “current and proficient” (or some like phrase) as a requirement.
Everskyward
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Part 91 pilots are not holding out to the general public. Commercial transportation (not just in airplanes) is more highly regulated. You could legally get in your truck and drive for 48 hours straight, but a commercial trucker can't. There are those that complain about too much regulation and there are others who complain about not enough...
Sure they can. I’ve never done any oak climbing, never will. But I know the difference between climbing with ropes and free-climbing. They can’t have the breadth and depth of knowledge that a pilot would, but if they’re reasonably intelligent you can explain the basics of this situation and the increased risks in a few minutes.
Gosh, I don’t know how I couldn’t see that! Both wear uniforms, both discriminate against entire groups of human beings and put them to death for their religious beliefs, ethnicity or sexuality. You’re so right! What a perfectly reasoned, intelligent and mature observation!Road blockade with armed people around my car demanding to see my papers, asking where I'm coming from, where I'm going, all without them witnessing me commit any crime, I'd say it's a foreseeable comparison.
You're right, totally diffrent lol
In one we have men in brown uniforms armed with lethal weapons performing a road block, they are just doing their jobs.
In the other picture they also are wearing reflective vests.
MauleSkinner
Touchdown! Greaser!
It sounds like you're saying that the weather was the only risk factor worth explaining to these passengers in order for them to make a go/no go decision.
The only passenger briefing that morning should have been 'Sorry guys, I don't think we'll make it to lunch in Key West today. We can get a bite to eat here and fly for some drinks on Duval St after the fog lifts or push this off til tomorrow.'
To fly or not to fly is a 'captains decision'. Can't pawn that off on the cargo.
MIFlyer
Pattern Altitude
did my first simulated 0/0 takeoff yesterday. we won't do a real one, but will do lots of actual IR time.
Kritchlow
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Exactly. And I’m betting it wasn’t all that difficult..??
ChrisK
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Mine was nerve-wracking. I mean sure, it is easy to take off under the hood if you don't care about hitting anything
Kritchlow
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No doubt it’s a bit nerve wracking if it’s real, but your instructor won’t let you hit anything.Mine was nerve-wracking. I mean sure, it is easy to take off under the hood if you don't care about hitting anything
Regardless, 1/4 mile is LIGHT YEARS apart from 0/0.
No worries...
Make it "experience and rating level" and I say unequivocally yes.
As to informing passengers of potential risk, it is my experience that passengers be they friend, family or never before met ones always ask about the weather. This is true whether it's clear and a million, pouring rain, snow or fog. You as the pilot don't have to initiate this. The pilot as PIC cannot at that point introduce some safety matrix for discussion. He/she must have already and painstaking reviewed all relevant information about the planned flight and answer simply that it's safe, let's board, or no it's not safe and we will wait/cancel.
Kritchlow
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It’s like saying a VFR pilot is completely irresponsible if they fly in 10 miles in haze vs unlimited vis.
olasek
Pattern Altitude
Don’t they ask about your flying abilities or additional risks flying on small aircraft with a non professional pilot? I happen to tell my passengers that flying GA is inherently much more dangerous than flying with airlines. I tell them I will do everything in my power to mitigate some of the most common risks but I can never deliver the same level of safety as they would expect from an airline. I tell them all this before they even get to the airport so they have a chance to gracefully pull out.
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Well considering that the PIC was a close relative, (father, brother, uncle etc.) I’m sure they felt as though he was competent and capable as a pilot and trusted his abilities, so they wouldn’t have thought twice about it, more than likely. Had he have been a total stranger it might’ve been different.
Exactly right.
denverpilot
Tied Down
Why? Because he launched in 1000-2000 RVR in a multi?
(Because that’s the best information we have right now, the 0/0 stuff is unsubstantiated and mainly derived from a limelight loving Sheriff’s commentary who was told to knock it off by someone.)
Ravioli
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By the time this thread ends the final report will be issued, the pilot will be reincarnated, and most of the way through his new pilot certificate.
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Hank S
En-Route
I denigrate all pachyderms, all the time . . . War Eagle!
I'm glad to see that it only took 8 pages to start a reasonabke discussion about this accident. And I don't think that Rory's assertion that the PIC should discuss all possible risks involved on every flight with the passengers is reasonable, as they likely don't have the backfround to uunderstand the risks or the effects of each mitigation strategy. And there is often not the needed several hours available for this in-depth discussion before each flight.
My wife, and friends I have taken flying who mentioned it, trust me to know what I'm doing and to not do stupid stuff. Just like when they get in the car with me to go to lunch. Driving, flying, bicycling or hiking, I do not want to die, so I don't do stupid tricks (when driving, make that "any more"
).
Clark1961
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Aztec Flyer
That's my theory of what happened.
Possible. But you are betting on an event of infinitesimal probability. And in the very limited information available so far I don't see any evidence that obviously suggests it.
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Aztec Flyer
When I die I want to come back as a Bonanza. You get treated better on POA than any pilot.
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azblackbird
Pattern Altitude
The comment from a witness... "the change in pitch in blades" in addition to the way the aircraft is positioned leads me to believe a problem with the right engine. That's just my theory though.
olasek
Pattern Altitude
Yeah, the so called “witnesses” - as historical track record shows their observations are next to worthless, remember all those “witnesses” who saw missiles fired towards TWA800 flight? They were well meaning folks who could swear on a Bible that this is what they saw...The comment from a witness... "the change in pitch in blades" in addition to the way the aircraft is positioned leads me to believe a problem with the right engine. That's just my theory though.
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MauleSkinner
Touchdown! Greaser!
Yup...the way it usually works is if you don't trust the pilot's judgment, you don't fly wth him regardless of conditions.I denigrate all pachyderms, all the time . . . War Eagle!
I'm glad to see that it only took 8 pages to start a reasonabke discussion about this accident. And I don't think that Rory's assertion that the PIC should discuss all possible risks involved on every flight with the passengers is reasonable, as they likely don't have the backfround to uunderstand the risks or the effects of each mitigation strategy. And there is often not the needed several hours available for this in-depth discussion before each flight.
My wife, and friends I have taken flying who mentioned it, trust me to know what I'm doing and to not do stupid stuff. Just like when they get in the car with me to go to lunch. Driving, flying, bicycling or hiking, I do not want to die, so I don't do stupid tricks (when driving, make that "any more"
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Aztec Flyer
"I really wish someone would explain to me why amateurs are allowed to rivet or glue together their own airplane and allowed to takeoff."
Certificated GA is less heavily regulated than Commercial aviation. The GA accident rate is consistently higher.
E-AB is less regulated than certificated GA. The accident rate for E-AB is consistently higher.
It's a matter of where society and the regulating agency decide the trade offs should be, whether that be aviation or any other aspect of our lives. That's a constantly moving target as societal attitudes change and regulators, accountable to politicians, respond to that change.
I'll make the proposition that more regulation of an already highly regulated activity, aviation, is unlikely to produce anything more than marginal results, with a good possibility of unintended negative consequences. If the objective is to reduce the number of lives lost in the transportation sector over time, then put the effort into the least regulated part of that sector that produces by far the greatest number of fatalities. And we all know what that is.
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azblackbird
Pattern Altitude
I agree with you to a certain extent. The TW800 accident the witnesses heard the explosion(s) then looked up to the sky to see what amounted to a falling fireball, thus the belated association (light travels faster than sound) with a missile as some of the parts were already streaming down towards the ocean leaving a trail of smoke. Same goes for the SpaceX flight the other night. Freaked out a ton of people because they can't comprehend a lite-up vapor trail (from the sun) with a ball of light in front of it. Same also goes for our "Phoenix Lights"... people can't comprehend what a Chinese lantern is, so obviously it must be a UFO.
In this case, the "witness" was somebody who regularly hung around an airport, so I'd tend to believe them a lot more if they said they heard "a change in pitch" rather than just a statement from a common man off the street. Again... just my theory.
James331
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Just curious, what do the boots you lick taste like?
Is there any particular shoe polish you prefer licking?
Palmpilot
Touchdown! Greaser!
I agree that the full burden of the go/no-go decision falls on the PIC, but the pilot's authority only extends to operation of the aircraft. Under normal circumstances, a PIC does not have the authority to compel passengers to get on board.
As for whether to inform potential passengers of the risk, and how far to go with that, that is an ethical question.
Rykymus
Line Up and Wait
"I really wish someone would explain to me why amateurs are allowed to rivet or glue together their own airplane and allowed to takeoff."
Certificated GA is less heavily regulated than Commercial aviation. The GA accident rate is consistently higher.
E-AB is less regulated than certificated GA. The accident rate for E-AB is consistently higher.
It's a matter of where society and the regulating agency decide the trade offs should be, whether that be aviation or any other aspect of our lives. That's a constantly moving target as societal attitudes change and regulators, accountable to politicians, respond to that change.
I'll make the proposition that more regulation of an already highly regulated activity, aviation, is unlikely to produce anything more than marginal results, with a good possibility of unintended negative consequences. If the objective is to reduce the number of lives lost in the transportation sector over time, then put the effort into the least regulated part of that sector that produces by far the greatest number of fatalities. And we all know what that is.
So, it's because they are trying not to over-regulate? The FAA? Seriously? The problem isn't over-regulation, it's dumb stuff like this. This is under-regulation. Regulations need to make sense. Allowing 0/0 takes offs by private pilots makes no sense.
CJ Rader
Pre-takeoff checklist
It occurs to me that this very same discussion could have been had regarding a fictitious plane crash and could have stirred the same informative discussion of ADM and go/no-go decision making (I watched 'The Mountain Between Us' last night..) Thrills as Kate Winslett's commercial flight to Denver is canceled due to weather and she charters a small GA twin-engine plane (she's GOT to get there for a WEDDING!) Chills as Beau Bridges, the crusty old aviator says he can get her and Idris Elba there ahead of the weather.. From Utah... Across the Rockies! Hold your breath as Mr. Bridges says he doesn't need to file a flight plan because he's "flying daytime VFR". Gasp in surprise because "the weather front moved" and they're now headed right for it.. And then recoil in horror as Mr. Bridges has a stroke and is rendered incapacitated. Tertiary discussion topics can focus on whether or not the twin-engine plane would still have belly landed as well as it did AFTER the entire tail section, including vertical stabilizer, was sheared off by a mountain top, and whether or not Salt Lake would ever have heard Beau's garbled, stroke-addled transmission with the microphone of his David Clark headset 5-6 inches away from his face. Ah well, if they made all the right decisions, there wouldn't be a movie, right?
MauleSkinner
Touchdown! Greaser!
There's a big difference between allowing and encouraging. The FAA allows 0/0 takeoffs under Part 91, but I've never heard of them encouraging them. But they do expect use of good judgment.
The difference for commercial ops is more to remove a lot of decision making from the flight crew, so there's not the pressure to do certain operations like 0/0 takeoffs. In the process, they also remove some of the expectation and ability for the pilot to exercise good judgment.
Ryan F.
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Oh, jeez.
Gotta love it when American citizens ask the government to protect them from themselves. "Please make it a rule so I don't do something dumb!"
Wonder what the WWII generation would think of us.
Cooter
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What about a pilot community that says, if you’re not comfortable taking off in 1/4 mile vis, you’re not a competent IR pilot. Or that it shouldn’t be difficult, not even close.
Or, if you call those conditions challenging, your credentials are questioned?
The FAA allows it, so it must be safe right?
(I actually think that is a reasonable expectation for part 91 passengers to have, but that’s aside from my point.) If you can’t operate in the conditions the FAA has set as the boundaries, you aren’t doing your part to stay proficient.
Those questions are Edit: aren’t directed at you @MauleSkinner, I am just using your post to make a point.
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Cooter
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Don’t you think it would be more appropriate to make your point without ridicule?Oh, jeez.
Gotta love it when American citizens ask the government to protect them from themselves. "Please make it a rule so I don't do something dumb!"
Wonder what the WWII generation would think of us.