5 related adults dead in Cessna 340 crash

Down in Tampa for the holiday’s. Fog was dense this morning before burning off around 10am. My condolences to them.
 
We have had heavy morning fog here the last several days that doesn’t burn off until 10 or 11 o’clock. I cancelled a flight yesterday morning for that reason. I cannot imagine what this pilot was thinking. (Apparently, nothing.)

Very sad, especially on Christmas Eve. Their family and friends will recall this every Christmas from now on.
 
Sounded like a poor takeoff decision, but fog itself shouldn’t have grounded a twin Cessna. Did he loose an engine on takeoff?
 
I guess he had to fly the diphtheria serum to Key West.
 
Sad. The airmen database says he was instrument rated. This likely wasn't his first time launching in those conditions..

Will be curious what caused this tragedy
 
steingar said:
Did he loose an engine on takeoff?
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Nothing on the local news has reported that, but what do they know? Sounds like he lost it after going IMC just after getting airborne. I agree with the statement that the fog shouldn’t have kept it grounded.
 
Had they only delayed their takeoff by a couple of hours, the outcome might not have been the same.
 
Pilots lose control of aircraft when they fly into a fog and this happens to even experienced IFR pilots. Case in point - Dr. Richard Rockefeller flew his Piper Meridian in 2015 immediately after takeoff into heavy fog and crashed, the flight wasn’t even airborne a minute. He was a fairly experienced IFR pilot with thousands of hours. So equipment failures aren’t even necessary for this type of accident to occur.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro
 
First few seconds transitioning to instruments can be discombobulating. Close to the ground, it wouldn't take much.
 
My scariest few minutes in a plane involved taking off from an airport with no approaches into IMC. It took some severe mental fortitude to convince my hands and feet to manipulate the controls to get the aircraft to do what I wanted it to do. I can't imagine taking off into fog.
 
So maybe this isn't the place to ask but as an instrument student who has never flown in IMC I'm wondering why loss of control on takeoff in fog would be such an issue. I would have thought it would be easier than flying an approach, you'd have all your instruments set up before takeoff, you'd be expecting to enter IMC, and all you'd have to do is hold a climb until you got to your desired/cleared altitude and intercepted/turned into your course.
 
cowman said:
So maybe this isn't the place to ask but as an instrument student who has never flown in IMC I'm wondering why loss of control on takeoff in fog would be such an issue. I would have thought it would be easier than flying an approach, you'd have all your instruments set up before takeoff, you'd be expecting to enter IMC, and all you'd have to do is hold a climb until you got to your desired/cleared altitude and intercepted/turned into your course.
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The transition to instruments is challenging. It’s not the instantaneous switch you get when your CFII takes the controls and you put on the hood. Fog and haze in particular induce you to think things are X when they are really Y, because you can pick up some visual clues of the ground through them but those clues will be deceptive. This makes it even harder to get your body to shut up so you can focus on the instruments and interpret them.
 
James331 said:
RIP

Guess there's no need to call the NTSB or FAA, the local yocal cop apparently is an expert :rolleyes:

"I have reviewed some footage, and clearly no one should have tried to a takeoff from this airport at 7:15 this morning"

http://abcnews.go.com/US/killed-plane-attempted-takeoff-airport-socked-fog/story?id=51977642


Perhaps he should stick to giving speeding tickets and munching donuts.
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Captain Fife has made his determination on fault based on his extensive aviation training, experience and expertise.
 
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Some here may think the fog shouldn't have kept it grounded, but unless this is a pilot that regularly practiced such low visibility departures single pilot IMC, I would disagree.

Reported < 1/4 mile visibility; we have no idea if actual was somewhat worse or perhaps better in that moment, or if was even constant over the runway length. I think he would have been travelling about 150 ft per second just before lifting off, covering 1/4 mile in about 8 seconds at the rotation speed of a 340. After peering out the window (just off the nose instead of the more usual down the runway) to keep the airplane on the centreline in low viz conditions, that requires a rapid and perfect transition to instruments immediately with little time to catch, correctly diagnose and respond to anything going wrong with engines, props or instruments.

This accident reminds me of another eerily similar Dec 24th accident in fog conditions in the UK seventeen years ago. Beech King Air 200. Took off in dense fog. Crashed near the airport perimeter, 200 yards from the end of the runway. Five fatalities in that one also, four from the same family + one friend.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/1085486.stm

Turned out the plane had just come out of maintenance and during that work the throttle friction lock had been backed off. Although it was on the pre-take off checklist, investigators believe it was overlooked and one throttle backed off on take-off causing the airplane to roll and turn close to the ground. If you read the full accident report anyone can see how there was little time to figure what was the cause and correct it before impact.
 
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cowman said:
So maybe this isn't the place to ask but as an instrument student who has never flown in IMC I'm wondering why loss of control on takeoff in fog would be such an issue. I would have thought it would be easier than flying an approach, you'd have all your instruments set up before takeoff, you'd be expecting to enter IMC, and all you'd have to do is hold a climb until you got to your desired/cleared altitude and intercepted/turned into your course.
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...and retracting gear and adjusting throttles and synching props and any number of other things that can take a pilot's attention away from where it should be.
 
cowman said:
So maybe this isn't the place to ask but as an instrument student who has never flown in IMC I'm wondering why loss of control on takeoff in fog would be such an issue. I would have thought it would be easier than flying an approach, you'd have all your instruments set up before takeoff, you'd be expecting to enter IMC, and all you'd have to do is hold a climb until you got to your desired/cleared altitude and intercepted/turned into your course.
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You’re visual at the beginning of takeoff and as you accelerate in the fog you start to loose visual references, by the time your mains have left the ground you have none and are solid imc. It takes a lot of mental preparation to be transitioning to instruments at the time of rotation. If you don’t you’ll be at a very high risk of spatial disorientation very close to the ground.
 
iamtheari said:
The transition to instruments is challenging. It’s not the instantaneous switch you get when your CFII takes the controls and you put on the hood. Fog and haze in particular induce you to think things are X when they are really Y, because you can pick up some visual clues of the ground through them but those clues will be deceptive. This makes it even harder to get your body to shut up so you can focus on the instruments and interpret them.
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I have a video of very poor quality that records the departure I mentioned above. I am willing to send to anyone who PMs me. I don't want to post it because I am not proud of the quality.

What is interesting about the video is the fact that I took so long to depart (due to an issue with the GPS database) that the windows started to fog up. The transition from visual to instrument conditions in the moist air and rain was so gradual that, looking at the video, I think I subconsciously conflated a wipe line from the window with the horizon.

If I recall, my instruction was to make about a 180 degree turn to the left upon entering controlled airspace direct to a local VOR. I ended up slowly turning in the wrong direction twice before getting myself and the aircraft properly under control. Based on this experience, I learned that it is not a quick entry into a cloud bank that kills. It is a slow roll into subtly decreasing visibility.
 
You have to be on your A+ game, not just your A game for those conditions. I'd expect distraction by a full cabin, even if they were saying very little.
 
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I actually have done 0-0 takeoffs, in real life. Once in training, and a couple more on solo flights. The fog was so thick that you could barely see the center line directly in front of you, and it disappeared once you rotated. You're actually relying on your DG for directional guidance on the takeoff roll.

It's a little bit disconcerting taking off when you know that there is no possible way you could land at the same airport.
 
James331 said:
RIP

Guess there's no need to call the NTSB or FAA, the local yocal cop apparently is an expert :rolleyes:

"I have reviewed some footage, and clearly no one should have tried to a takeoff from this airport at 7:15 this morning"

http://abcnews.go.com/US/killed-plane-attempted-takeoff-airport-socked-fog/story?id=51977642


Perhaps he should stick to giving speeding tickets and munching donuts.
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Said by the guy who knows a lot about aviation and very little about police work, but speaks his mind about police work anyway. Maybe you should heed your own advice.

Incidentally in this case I cringe that he offered his “expert” opinion when it should’ve just been a reference to an ongoing investigation. That said, I’ve read post after post from you bashing my profession and not once has it apparently occurred to you that maybe you’re just an “alpha hotel”, thus causing the lack of effort from law enforcement you constantly whine about.
 
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cowman said:
...you'd be expecting to enter IMC, and all you'd have to do is hold a climb....
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Not “expecting to enter.” He was in IMC while taxiing. We have had very thick soup, fog and mist, every morning. He probably didn’t have 200 feet of visibility, and mist falling onto the windshield would have made it worse. This would have been a 0/0 takeoff. Heck, just the risk of a runway obstruction (we have a coyote problem here) would scare me.
 
teejayevans said:
When I did a 0-0 simulated takeoff in training, I used instruments only right from the start, I remember telling my instructor “this seems like a stupid thing to do”.
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What instruments did you use to stay on the runway centreline during the take-off roll? Heading indicator/DG only?

I've played around in a sim doing that but I would never launch down a runway single pilot IFR with no peripheral visual cues. I'm just not quite that daring.

The commercial guys at least have a pilot in the right seat to work with them (calling out airspeed for example). An attorney flying a private airplane is unlikely to have anywhere near comparable experience or recurrent training to try to do this. Solo pilot.
 
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What helps is if one has a flight director. Then you fly the plane into the command bars and climb out, get the AP on (if you have one), and then retract gear/flaps as required. A Cessna 340 most likely had the equipment I described. You have to be current and proficient as an instrument pilot. You have to have a plan. What are you going to do if you lose an engine for instance. Most professional pilots plan on losing an engine on takeoff or at/after rotation, and mentally review the procedure before hand. That may be a cause of this crash, some type of mechanical problem, might not be. Could have had an engine failure at rotation. Who knows, but we'll probably find out the cause after the NTSB investigates.

This was a Part 91 takeoff, meaning one can takeoff in zero visibility conditions. Not the most wise thing to do, but legal. You wonder why the FAA doesn't require a minimum visibility for takeoff under Part 91 like there is for Part 135 & 121.

Part 135/121 (Air Taxi, airlines) will have required visibility for a particular runway at an airport. Example, might have been 1/2 mile for this runway.
 
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Well I’m just a student pilot but I think that the Sheriff had it right.

Let’s forget the disorientation scenarios and suppose that it was a simple mechanical failure on takeoff, which sounds entirely plausible, indeed probable.

So you do a forced landing straight ahead or up to 30 degrees to either side. Quite a trick if you’re in pea soup fog with no visibility.

Or you could wait 30-120 minutes for the fog to burn off.
 
Big difference taking off in low ceiling conditions,and taking off in heavy ground fog. Another sad day,may they Rest In Peace.
 
Rory said:
Well I’m just a student pilot but I think that the Sheriff had it right.

Let’s forget the disorientation scenarios and suppose that it was a simple mechanical failure on takeoff, which sounds entirely plausible, indeed probable...
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Mechanical failure is certainly possible. But mechanical failures in airplanes are low probability events as decades of accident investigations have shown. And the probability of mechanical failure at the exact moment of take-off is infinitesimal.
 
James331 said:
RIP

Guess there's no need to call the NTSB or FAA, the local yocal cop apparently is an expert :rolleyes:

"I have reviewed some footage, and clearly no one should have tried to a takeoff from this airport at 7:15 this morning"

http://abcnews.go.com/US/killed-plane-attempted-takeoff-airport-socked-fog/story?id=51977642


Perhaps he should stick to giving speeding tickets and munching donuts.
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paflyer said:
Captain Fife has made his determination on fault based on his extensive aviation training, experience and expertise.
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Well, in this case he seems to have known better than the PIC. If someone had shared that wisdom with the pilot, maybe he would be spending Christmas with his family right now.
 
GRG55 said:
Mechanical failure is certainly possible. But mechanical failures in airplanes are low probability events as decades of accident investigations have shown. And the probability of mechanical failure at the exact moment of take-off is infinitesimal.
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Until it happens. Then it’s 100% :)
 
cowman said:
So maybe this isn't the place to ask but as an instrument student who has never flown in IMC I'm wondering why loss of control on takeoff in fog would be such an issue. I would have thought it would be easier than flying an approach, you'd have all your instruments set up before takeoff, you'd be expecting to enter IMC, and all you'd have to do is hold a climb until you got to your desired/cleared altitude and intercepted/turned into your course.
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The rotation can do weird things with your inner ear. Like @mscard88 said above, a flight director really helps because it gives you something to focus on. But, most people don't train to rotate on the ADI. The motion can feel really strange without a visual reference. The other thing is what @MauleSkinner mentioned with the gear and flaps transitions. Those all feel much different climbing out and accelerating than they do dirtying up for an approach. It is not uncommon to feel like you are climbing straight up, just from the acceleration forces. Stopping your rotation to capture your climb out attitude also induces a weird sensation. I would not have been taking off in those conditions.
 
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James331 said:
RIP

Guess there's no need to call the NTSB or FAA, the local yocal cop apparently is an expert :rolleyes:

"I have reviewed some footage, and clearly no one should have tried to a takeoff from this airport at 7:15 this morning"

http://abcnews.go.com/US/killed-plane-attempted-takeoff-airport-socked-fog/story?id=51977642


Perhaps he should stick to giving speeding tickets and munching donuts.
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Fox was at a press conference that the Sheriff spoke at. He stated that a Sheriff/Pilot told him he couldn't believe someone would attempt a takeoff in the conditions at the time, and I think the two of them were at the Sheriff hangar as the plane took off. So a bit more to the story, as always, the Sheriff was quoting what a Sheriff's Deputy/Pilot told the Sheriff at the time, who would be pretty credible as far as I am concerned.
 
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paflyer said:
Captain Fife has made his determination on fault based on his extensive aviation training, experience and expertise.
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Actually, we here in Polk County think pretty highly of our sheriff. http://www.polksheriff.org/Sheriff/Pages/SheriffBio.aspx

He is quite intelligent and very well trained and experienced. I would bet he had some of the department aviators at the site, and I suspect he spoke with them and with tower personnel.

This ain’t his first rodeo.
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Edited to add that I just saw Mark’s post. No surprise the sheriff consulted with a pilot. The man is not an idiot.
 
Just noticed the time of accident was 7:15. The tower wasn’t open yet. Not that it would matter much; they couldn’t have seen the runway in that fog.
 
mscard88 said:
Fox was at a press conference that the Sheriff spoke at. He stated that a Sheriff/Pilot told him he couldn't believe someone would attempt a takeoff in the conditions at the time, and I think the two of them were at the Sheriff hangar as the plane took off. So a bit more to the story, as always, the Sheriff was quoting what a Sheriff's Deputy/Pilot told the Sheriff at the time, who would be pretty credible as far as I am concerned.
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Still a guy and his family members just died, just before Xmas, he could keep his mouth shut on the donut squads opinions.
 
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