TN. to WA. epmty GA. ramps.

brien23

brien23

Cleared for Takeoff
Joined
May 31, 2005
Messages
1,442
Location
Oak Harbor
Display Name
Display name:
Brien
Just got back from trip from Knoxville Tn. to WA. Lots of empty ramps on GA. airports not sure how long some of these airports can hang on . Two types of airports those doing well lots of $$$ big buck aircraft and those on the skids, not sure how they can stay open. Gas price good most of the way and great Weather all the way. Price on GA aircraft are a buyer market got a good price on a PA-28R
that we flew back to WA. If you are trying to sell a plane you have to have a good price, no junk or old avionics, high time engine, bad paint, even then it is hard to find buyers that a few years ago would flock to your add.
 
Depends on where you are in the country. In some areas, you won't find any planes on the ramps because they are all in hangars. Even around here in relatively temperate climbs you only find people on the ramp at airports that lack sufficient hangar space.
 
flyingron said:
Depends on where you are in the country. In some areas, you won't find any planes on the ramps because they are all in hangars. Even around here in relatively temperate climbs you only find people on the ramp at airports that lack sufficient hangar space.
Click to expand...

That's how it is in the Midwest. Anyone who plans to keep an airplane outside long term might as well also plan on having hail damage and/or other storm damage in short order. Transients are pretty much the only planes you'll see outside here.
 
Grum.Man said:
Tell me about it. Can't seem to give my Grumman away.
Click to expand...

Have looked at a dozen 177s & 182s for sale and most of them are asking >$60k for rust buckets with mid-time to run-out engines and junk radios.

Almost all of them won't send any interior structure pics and would rather you waste time money to see it in person or pay for a prebuy.

One dude was selling "light hail", my dad showed up and took real pictures of it and sent to me, light my ass.
 
Last edited:
Grum.Man said:
Tell me about it. Can't seem to give my Grumman away.
Click to expand...

I will take it if your giving it away. So give it up or stop saying this. :) I will even come get it you don't have to deliver it.
 
Depends on the airport. I visited a couple of privately owned fields Saturday.
One was hopping. The other was dead.
Interesting differences:
The airport that was hopping sits on a county road and doesn't have a fence around it. They stood up to Homeland Security and won. People were coming into the FBO asking if they could look at the airplanes, asking questions. The aircraft owners, guys working the line, the instructors, even the mechanics would stop and answer questions. I've seen mechanics and pilots put kids in planes while they tow them around the ramp.The flight school is so busy they resort to some really interesting scheduling so they don't have to turn away students.

The other airport sits way off a local road with a 15 ft tall fence around it. Even the diner is inside the fence (you can get to it, but you need to know how to get through the maze) No one is visible. No line guys, no instructors, the mechanics keep the hanger doors closed so they won't be bothered. The one person my buddy tried to talk to told him "I don't have time for this." A few minutes later he walked out to his plane and tossed us the bird. !!!!
The flight school is "by appointment only" Translation: Essentially out of business.
It's a pattern I've seen repeated, often.

This is strictly my opinion based on nothing but personal observations:
Airports with fences are not friendly places. It doesn't matter how much money the local, state or federal government throws at them, they are not doing well unless there is a huge corporate presence.
Airports without fences seem to do better. At the successful airports, the owners, employees and even the pilots know they are competing for attention and dollars to stay afloat, and they market themselves better.

That's all. Back to your regularly scheduled program.
 
Shepherd said:
Airports with fences are not friendly places. It doesn't matter how much money the local, state or federal government throws at them, they are not doing well unless there is a huge corporate presence.
Click to expand...

We should start a group: Pilots Against Fencing. I'm only half-joking, because I totally agree. There is no reason for small GA airports to have this style of security. Those fences do their job, which isn't necessarily to 100% prevent access, but to be visually off-putting to discourage attempts at illicit access. Problem is, those fences also discourage LEGAL access. They discourage drop-bys and whoa-was-that-an-airport-lets-turn-around-and-go-looks and little kids getting to see airplanes up close, etc, etc.

I fly out of FRG (decidedly NOT a small GA airport, but still...), which at times feels like a federal prison. The place is simultaneously super busy and completely lifeless and sterile. The terminal is a half-abandoned dump. The flight schools are scattered around the perimeter of the field, and all the jet and charter operations are building their own brand-new, gorgeous facilities around the edge of the field also. It feels very every-man-for-himself.

I don't know the answer but I just got my license and part of me feels like I've spent a lot of money to enter a dying field. Hopefully I'll find some of those hopping fields soon and actually MEET someone in aviation, which hasn't really happened in all the 70 hours of my training.
 
You flew through the heartland, where hangers are cheap and the tie downs aren't a good investment.

Heck, my airport in Raymond, MS has over 20 planes tied down and another 30 or so in hangers. And that's in MS at an airport in the middle of nowhere down the Natchez Trace.

Since we are going with anecdotes, there's one.
 
onezuludelta said:
I don't know the answer but I just got my license and part of me feels like I've spent a lot of money to enter a dying field. Hopefully I'll find some of those hopping fields soon and actually MEET someone in aviation, which hasn't really happened in all the 70 hours of my training.
Click to expand...

This is a lonely hobby unless you make a serious effort to connect with people. UNFORTUNATELY you can't really ask people if they'd like to go flying with you - you have to wait for them to ask you. Aside from that though you must must make the effort: join every club and definitely fly to every fly-in you can make. This isn't like sailing, where girls in bikinis are lining up to hang out on your boat.
 
brien23 said:
Just got back from trip from Knoxville Tn. to WA. Lots of empty ramps on GA. airports not sure how long some of these airports can hang on . Two types of airports those doing well lots of $$$ big buck aircraft and those on the skids, not sure how they can stay open. Gas price good most of the way and great Weather all the way. Price on GA aircraft are a buyer market got a good price on a PA-28R
that we flew back to WA. If you are trying to sell a plane you have to have a good price, no junk or old avionics, high time engine, bad paint, even then it is hard to find buyers that a few years ago would flock to your add.
Click to expand...
I assume this serves as your regularly scheduled bi-monthly post that GA is beyond saving? Thanks Brien.
 
The two airports closest to me are busy and have long waiting lists for hangars. Does that prove that GA is booming?
 
FormerHangie said:
The two airports closest to me are busy and have long waiting lists for hangars. Does that prove that GA is booming?
Click to expand...
I think the real measure of "success" for an airport is how many GA planes are in the pattern at any given time.
In my example above, both airports have full hangers, with waiting lists, and a number of planes tied down.
The airport with no fences had at least 5 students in the pattern, and other planes flying in and out. The six school planes were booked until after dark. There were at least 6 other guys in the FBO "hanger" flying.
The airport with the fence had nothing in the pattern, one plane on the transient ramp, no one working in the FBO (not even the owner), four people in the diner. And one schmuck with a really bad attitude.
 
Duuuude...you just scored a nice PA-28R, lighten up.

1u3qj3.jpg
 
flyingron said:
Depends on where you are in the country. In some areas, you won't find any planes on the ramps because they are all in hangars. Even around here in relatively temperate climbs you only find people on the ramp at airports that lack sufficient hangar space.
Click to expand...

That.

The airports I've kept my planes at; ramps are mostly empty, hangars have a waiting list.

Ramos are ether transient, high use flight school planes, or have a sad story
 
Frankly, even if you think small time GA is dying, who cares? Is that gonna stop you from flying? Heck, that just means cheaper prices on used aircraft and less wait at the A&P. You win either way.

Enough other sectors of GA are booming that there's no risk of the system going away or most local airports being closed. Nothing to worry about.

If you are trying to sell a plane you have to have a good price, no junk or old avionics, high time engine, bad paint, even then it is hard to find buyers that a few years ago would flock to your add.
Click to expand...

And? That's how it should be. I know a few brokers. I've heard no complaints on their ability to move planes.
 
Last edited:
A lot depends on where you stop for fuel, like most cheap pilots, I look for the lowest price that's near my route. Often lower use airports have lower priced fuel to encourage stops. I am in Kissimmee this weekend, 3 FBO's, the one I use is old and a little worn, fuel is $2.00 less than the fancier busy new FBO's across the runway. But, if you looked at the ramp I'm on, you'd think the aviation world is ending!
 
My home airport is busy (when not in a TFR). Flight school keeps about a half dozen planes operating plus a twin that is away maybe 30% of the time. AirNav says that there are 82 airplanes based on the field with ca. 20 in tiedowns (my estimate) and the rest in hangars. Hangar prices are kept just high enough that there is usually little wait for an opening (although painful as a renter). Runway and taxi ways in excellent condition.

There are probably 20 others within 50 nm that are highly active, as well. I think the countervailing factor is whether or not the airport owner can make more money doing something else with the land.

OTOH, I know the feeling of flying through the heartland into airports that are gorgeous facilities but seem deserted. One seems to be located in every county. Four to six thousand foot runways (often concrete), new terminal buildings with showers and lounges, fuel. I remember one I flew into in Indiana. There was a fuel slip that had been left in the self serve pump by a prior user....dated 3 days earlier. Now maybe everyone who used that pump between then and me didn't bother to get receipts. Or maybe if they did, they chose to leave the old slip in place rather than put it into the trash can left there for discarding old receipts. But I think it was more likely that no one had purchased fuel there for 3 days. There were hangars, but only about 20. Not enough, I expect, to pay for themselves. The maintenance hangar was empty except for storing the A&P's own plane. Maybe crop spraying in the warm seasons pays the bills (but then why need a 5000 ft x 100 ft runway)?

And to the poster trying to sell a Grumman. In the last ca. 3 months two Tigers sold at my home airport in a couple of weeks each. A 2000's vintage AGAC with original paint and interior in very good condition and a mid time engine. GNS430w based steam gauge panel. And a 1978 Tiger with 2010 vintage paint and interior and a steam gauge panel built around a GTN650. Also (I think) a mid time engine with 2 new cylinders. Considering the amount of traffic they both had in the 2 weeks, and the speed of the sales, I suspect that neither one was at a low price. There seems to be buyers with money for the right plane. Never enough money to pay for all that an owner puts into the plane, though. That depreciation is part of the cost of our freedom to fly.
 
N747JB said:
A lot depends on where you stop for fuel, like most cheap pilots, I look for the lowest price that's near my route. Often lower use airports have lower priced fuel to encourage stops. I am in Kissimmee this weekend, 3 FBO's, the one I use is old and a little worn, fuel is $2.00 less than the fancier busy new FBO's across the runway. But, if you looked at the ramp I'm on, you'd think the aviation world is ending!
Click to expand...
The Jet Center does have a bit of a third world feel to it, but always treated good and get that cheaper fuel.
 
bkspero said:
And to the poster trying to sell a Grumman. In the last ca. 3 months two Tigers sold at my home airport in a couple of weeks each. A 2000's vintage AGAC with original paint and interior in very good condition and a mid time engine. GNS430w based steam gauge panel. And a 1978 Tiger with 2010 vintage paint and interior and a steam gauge panel built around a GTN650. Also (I think) a mid time engine with 2 new cylinders. Considering the amount of traffic they both had in the 2 weeks, and the speed of the sales, I suspect that neither one was at a low price. There seems to be buyers with money for the right plane. Never enough money to pay for all that an owner puts into the plane, though. That depreciation is part of the cost of our freedom to fly.
Click to expand...

I get the impression that two seaters aren't real popular any more, particularly the AA-1s. Like you said, good stuff moves quickly, but there are some airplanes that are going to be a struggle to sell.
 
bnt83 said:
Have looked at a dozen 177s & 182s for sale and most of them are asking >$60k for rust buckets with mid-time to run-out engines and junk radios.

Almost all of them won't send any interior structure pics and would rather you waste time money to see it in person or pay for a prebuy.

One dude was selling "light hail", my dad showed up and took real pictures of it and sent to me, light my ass.
Click to expand...

I saw this one recently while window shopping... doesn't look THAT bad... Radios maybe..
https://www.trade-a-plane.com/searc...model=177B&listing_id=2276530&s-type=aircraft
 
I just dropped by the community hangar today, the parking lot was full and at least half or more of the planes usually in there were out. Seems like some days are just really active and others aren't. If you go to a destination airport... one with a restaurant or near a reasonably touristy area on a VFR weekend there is always traffic in and out. Or sometimes it's just you and two silver haired gentlemen swapping dirty jokes over coffee in the FBO.

Flying in the midwest, mostly IL, WI, and MO I haven't seen any airports with permanent outdoor tie-downs. As I go further south through KY and farther I occasionally see those canopy buildings with just a roof and tie-down but we don't have those up here. The only aircraft you're going to see on the ramp are transient or getting ready to go out/be put away.
 
I recently moved to a small town airport on the western edge of the Rockies. Airport is usually very quiet, which is way different that what I was used to at my previous base in southcentral Alaska, which was bustling year round. At the new field, I had to tie down outside for about 10 months before finally getting in a hangar; all the hangars are occupied, but from what I can see, probably 1/2 of those hangared planes haven't flown for a few years, or more... I bought a '77 Tiger(original -old- paint, old avionics, mid-time engine, no corrosion) a couple of years ago, when I moved to the lower 48, and sold it this past February for a little more than I paid for it. Took about three months on Barnstormer's. Probably would have sold sooner but I was out of town working a lot of the time.
 
rsleeds said:
The Jet Center does have a bit of a third world feel to it, but always treated good and get that cheaper fuel.
Click to expand...
They were OK, line guy went off on our Uber driver, who then went off on the line guy! I tipped the guys $20 and asked them to put my cowl plugs in when the engines cooled off. Got there yesterday, cowl plugs still in the nose baggage area!! :mad:
 
N747JB said:
They were OK, line guy went off on our Uber driver, who then went off on the line guy! I tipped the guys $20 and asked them to put my cowl plugs in when the engines cooled off. Got there yesterday, cowl plugs still in the nose baggage area!! :mad:
Click to expand...

They have stupid policies about everything. No Ubers allowed inside the gate, they purposely delay opening the gates for Ubers to promote the Enterprise rentals, and for smaller stuff, they make you bring your own tiedowns or they charge $30/night for "tiedown rental".
I paid $50 for 24hr rental car during Sun'n'Fun, because they said if I'll take an Uber, it will be a 30-40 minute wait at the gate before they can open it for me.

Don't think I'll go back there.
 
Bonchie said:
You flew through the heartland, where hangers are cheap and the tie downs aren't a good investment.

Heck, my airport in Raymond, MS has over 20 planes tied down and another 30 or so in hangers. And that's in MS at an airport in the middle of nowhere down the Natchez Trace.

Since we are going with anecdotes, there's one.
Click to expand...
We've got probably 40 in the FBO hangars and the T Hangars are full at TUP
 
FormerHangie said:
The two airports closest to me are busy and have long waiting lists for hangars. Does that prove that GA is booming?
Click to expand...

No, probably "U Store It" is contracting and most of those hangars are full of non-aviation material:mad:
 
danhagan said:
No, probably "U Store It" is contracting and most of those hangars are full of non-aviation material:mad:
Click to expand...

The two airports I was thinking of are KRYY and KPDK, and the hangars are expensive at both. I'd be pretty surprised if anyone was storing something other than flyable airplanes at either.
 
FormerHangie said:
The two airports I was thinking of are KRYY and KPDK, and the hangars are expensive at both. I'd be pretty surprised if anyone was storing something other than flyable airplanes at either.
Click to expand...

KPDK is so poorly run it's not even funny. Plenty of free tiedown space, but still a 30+ plane "waitlist" for a public (cheaper) tiedown (which means, you have to pay to park at one of the FBOs).
Hangars, don't even bother asking.
 
mtuomi said:
KPDK is so poorly run it's not even funny. Plenty of free tiedown space, but still a 30+ plane "waitlist" for a public (cheaper) tiedown (which means, you have to pay to park at one of the FBOs).
Hangars, don't even bother asking.
Click to expand...

I don't understand this sentence. There's free tiedown spaces, so why is there a waitlist? Can't you just park your airplane at the free tiedowns? And what does cheaper mean? How can it be cheaper than the free? Or did you mean to use quotes around cheaper?

Regarding hangars, i agree, I would fully expect PDK to have no availability or affordability of hangars.
 
hindsight2020 said:
I don't understand this sentence. There's free tiedown spaces, so why is there a waitlist? Can't you just park your airplane at the free tiedowns? And what does cheaper mean? How can it be cheaper than the free? Or did you mean to use quotes around cheaper?

Regarding hangars, i agree, I would fully expect PDK to have no availability or affordability of hangars.
Click to expand...

Free as in not occupied, not free as in $$$ free.
Waitlist because these unoccupied spaces are never officially "cleared", even though no-one has used them in years. The airport admin simply cannot be arsed to go check out what the status of them is.
 
coloradobluesky said:
The best airplanes are always in the hangars. The planes on the ramp are usually really weathered. Not hard to figure out why.
Click to expand...
And at the home drome, My airplane languishes outside, as there is no hangar space available, and the waiting list is 6 pages long.
 
N747JB said:
A lot depends on where you stop for fuel, like most cheap pilots, I look for the lowest price that's near my route. Often lower use airports have lower priced fuel to encourage stops. I am in Kissimmee this weekend, 3 FBO's, the one I use is old and a little worn, fuel is $2.00 less than the fancier busy new FBO's across the runway. But, if you looked at the ramp I'm on, you'd think the aviation world is ending!
Click to expand...

I was going to say the same thing. Many of the airports With "green" fuel prices on ForeFlight tend to be in otherwise low traffic towns without much of an economy or industry. The airport's kit going anywhere, so they figure they'll slash prices on fuel to attract visitors who will hopefully grab a bite to eat in town and spend some money. These say towns tend not to have a lot of based aircraft either.

The OP's initial observation is as much as statement on the state of the economy in middle America as it is on GA. But still, OP's desire to dwell on the topic is rather peculiar.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top