Help with electricity

So, we've determined that we are counting the same electrons but rather than jack hammering, they are jumping back and forth.

So, in your 13kV line pulsing 60 times a second and carrying 1000A, how many electrons are getting counted over and over in the meter and how far do they travel?:D

Keep in mind that there would be some electrons lost at the bottom of the meter. I always pick them up and re-use them to save on electricity.:idea:

José
 
well it's been a long time since I've been in the classroom so I'm not gonna fake it:)
but I know that 1 Ampere is equal to one Coulomb of electric charge per second. Don't quite remember how many electrons that is:idea:

oops, worded that wrong.

1 coulomb of electric charge=1 ampere per second
 
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well it's been a long time since I've been in the classroom so I'm not gonna fake it:)
but I know that 1 Ampere is equal to one Coulomb of electric charge per second. Don't quite remember how many electrons that is:idea:
Just don't forget the "Family Joules" :rofl::rofl::rofl:
 
Keep in mind that there would be some electrons lost at the bottom of the meter. I always pick them up and re-use them to save on electricity.:idea:

José


How do you reuse them? Aren't they spent from running the meter? You use a defibrillator or something? Or do you just shock them with a cattle prod and make them climb out?:confused:
 
I see a discussion of power factor coming. I'm going to go hide now.

We take *everything* too far here don't we!? ;) ;) ;)

I went searching for a funny electricity limerick that I can't find now and stumbled across this instead, which had me laughing out loud.

I think I like Schrodinger's answer best. Faraday was pretty funny too. :)

http://www.physics.harvard.edu/academics/undergrad/chickenroad.html
 
OK I just read this on Wiki:)

Hole conduction in a valence band can be explained by the following analogy. Imagine a row of people seated in an auditorium, where there are no spare chairs. Someone in the middle of the row wants to leave, so he jumps over the back of the seat into an empty row, and walks out. The empty row is analogous to the conduction band, and the person walking out is analogous to a free electron.

Now imagine someone else comes along and wants to sit down. The empty row has a poor view; so he does not want to sit there. Instead, a person in the crowded row moves into the empty seat the first person left behind.

The empty seat moves one spot closer to the edge and the person waiting to sit down. The next person follows, and the next, etcetera. One could say that the empty seat moves towards the edge of the row. Once the empty seat reaches the edge, the new person can sit down.

In the process everyone in the row has moved along. If those people were negatively charged (like electrons), this movement would constitute conduction. If the seats themselves were positively charged, then only the vacant seat would be positive. This is a very simple model of how hole conduction works.


So I think this is basically the point I was making. It's only the initial movement of a person (electron) from a seat that caused an empty seat (hole) to become available.....NOT the other way around:lol:

and the OP wanted a simple answer:rofl:
 
So I think this is basically the point I was making. It's only the initial movement of a person (electron) from a seat that caused an empty seat (hole) to become available.....NOT the other way around:lol:

and the OP wanted a simple answer:rofl:

No, it was the desire for a hotdog that got him to get up in the first place that caused an empty seat to become available. :D
 
:lol: so in that case DESIRE=Potential=Voltage

NO! Desire = Load!:rofl::rofl::rofl: It's what sucked the dude out of the seat to make the hole to fill. The Hot Dog is potential and gets turned into work when called on by the muscles to return him to his seat to make space and fill the hole from the hungry dude behind him.:D
 
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NO! Desire = Load!:rofl::rofl::rofl: It's what suck the dude out of the seat to make the hole to fill. The Hot Dog is potential and gets turned into work when called on by the muscles to return him to his seat to make space and fill the hole from the hungry dude behind him.:D

so there was a vacuum in the auditorium that sucked him up out of his seat to go get a hot dog:rofl::rofl::rofl:

I wish my old electrical teacher Mr. Clark, were alive to hear this:D
 
I'm not denying the existence of holes. I just don't accept the notion that holes start the movement (current) thus pushing electrons from their orbit! I'm a firm believer in just the opposite. Holes don't leave electrons in their wake.....

electrons leave holes in their wake. Therefore it's the electrons that constitute the flow (current)
 
I'm not denying the existence of holes. I just don't accept the notion that holes start the movement (current) thus pushing electrons from their orbit! I'm a firm believer in just the opposite. Holes don't leave electrons in their wake.....

electrons leave holes in their wake. Therefore it's the electrons that constitute the flow (current)

You don't know that until you know what motivates them to move.;) Did they get pushed to fill the opening or were they pulled through kicking and screaming? I mean, if you're heading for lights at the Tango Bravo, yeah, I can buy them trying to crowd through the door. If they're heading for the motor in the bottom of a tug boat though, I'm betting they have to be shoved out of bed to get to work.
 
On the other hand, I guess that's what's so difficult about proving Theory! Man only thinks he knows wtf is going on in our universe! It all could be dead wrong:lol:

So I guess it all boils down to what works best for you and your understanding and how you apply it. If electron flow works for me and hole flow works for someone else, it really doesn't matter... as long as the final result makes sense. So when I'm at work and I measure current, I see little negatively charged electrons running around in my head and I get good results with that:wink2:
 
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Understanding what one needs to know to get through ones life is all one really needs. If you understand it to do your job and know what NOT to do, you're in good shape. Let the theorists work out the motivations.
 
Man did you get lots of help. I'm not going to read them all to avoid duplication so here is a really simple mechanical analogy.

Imagine that you are pushing a heavy concrete block across the floor. Voltage is the force that you are using to push the block. Current or amperage is the movement of the block that you are achieving (feet per second). Power or watts is the distance that you have moved the block in a specific time multiplied by the force that you used to move it. It shows up as the heat generated by the block rubbing over the floor as it moves.

Double the friction (resistance) between the block and the floor and it will only go half as fast (cuts current in half) if you apply the same force (voltage)

Generators and alternators are converters. They convert mechanical energy put in through the rotor shaft into electrical energy. They are basically electrical pumps.
 
Change of heart. Never mind.
 
All alternators and all generators put out alternating current. That means that electricity changes direction in a wire repeatedly. Generators use devices inside or outside the generator which filter the electricity to allow it to go just one way through a wire, just like the electricity that a battery puts out. When the electricity travels one direction through a wire, it's called "DC," or Direct Current. Sometimes you'll see electrical value written as "VDC," meaning volts of direct current.

I don't believe this is 100% correct - For example, consider a signal with a +1v DC component and a 2Vp-p AC component. It'll always be traveling the same direction in the wire, but there is an AC component. Of course, for the alternating current to remain traveling the same direction, there must be a DC component as well. Anyway, I think a more correct definition of AC would be that the voltage varies in a periodic function.

Excellent explanation! Though, I must admit, as an early-on EE student, I thought about electricity via Henning's water analogy until I understood it better.
 
Think of electricity as water: Volts are pressure, Amps are volume and Watts are total quantity, the product of volume times pressure over a period of time.

The alternator and generator in relationship to the battery work the same, they provide electrons at a pressure slightly higher than that of the battery. The battery is the same as the city water tower. It holds the electrons ready to go using the tanks 'head pressure' of 13.2 volts when filled to the top. Same as with a water tower, it'll lose some pressure as the tank drains, but since the tank is so high, it will still have pressure when nearly empty; a battery at 11.5 volts is basically empty even though the pressure is still 80% of what it should be. The alternator and generator are pumps that refill the battery/tank with energy from the engine.

43 years of confusion solved in one minute!
 
:yeahthat:

Volts (voltage) (E) = Potential. Stored energy ready to be used.

Amps (amperage) (I)= Flow of electrons from one atom to another, (current).

Watts (wattage) (P) = The amount of power or rate of work being generated as a result of Potential and Flow. You need potential to get flow and you need them both to get power or watts.

P=ExI

Remember, in order to have current (flow) you need a conductor and that conductor will produce resistance to the flow measured in Ohms (R).

The conductor can be water, metal, gas, skin! :yikes:

It gets more complicated when you consider AC, inductive or capacitive loads, etc. But you wanted simplicity. :rofl:

This is great, too!
 
An electrical circuit requires a source of electricity, something to conduct it, and something upon which it can act (resistance).

Your source in the aircraft is the aircraft battery, and the alternator/generator. The battery is simple; it has a positive terminal and a negative terminal. Electricity flows from the negative terminal to the positive (contrary to popular belief). The difference in electrical potential between the two is voltage. Batteries are typically either 12 volt, or 24 volt. A volt is nothing more than a measure of the force trying to get from one terminal to the other, when the values of the two are compared.

As another poster noted, volts can be compared to pressure in a hose. Volts is the force pushing the water through the hose.

Amps or amperes, is a value which represents the current or flow of electricity. Think of it as the amount of water flowing through the hose, and think of it in terms of how it could hurt you or drive a motor. More current or more flow (more amps), the more it can hurt. High volts with few amps, not so bad, but high volts with lots of amps; that could hurt.

Watts could be thinking of what the electricity is doing or capable of doing. Think of a 60 watt lightbulb. More watts, more capability.

Batteries are rated in ampere/hours. A strong amp/hour battery is capable of sustaining more current for a longer period of time than a smaller amp/hour battery. Batteries are also rated in terms of cold cranking amps, which is what they can put out for a shorter period of time, and it has application with putting a heavy load on the battery, such as during the engine start.

All alternators and all generators put out alternating current. That means that electricity changes direction in a wire repeatedly. Generators use devices inside or outside the generator which filter the electricity to allow it to go just one way through a wire, just like the electricity that a battery puts out. When the electricity travels one direction through a wire, it's called "DC," or Direct Current. Sometimes you'll see electrical value written as "VDC," meaning volts of direct current.

Conversely, an alternator puts out AC current, which keeps switching direction in the wiring. In most light aircraft, this isn't useful for the simple electrical system, and small devices called diodes are used as electrical filters, allowing only DC to the aircraft sytem. Large aircraft use AC electricity (Alternating Current: same as you get out of the electrical outlet in your wall) for most components, with some parts of the system converted to DC electricity by "rectifying," which is a lot like straining the electricity to make it go just one way in the wire.

AC electricity is a little harder to control, especially when several sources of electricity are used at the same time (multiple alternators, for example). As long as DC electricity has the same voltage, it can all be sent to the same wire or same devices. DC is simpler to use, and is the most common in light airplanes. Aircraft systems are usually either 14 volt, or 28 volt. The batteries are 12 volt or 24 volt, and the slightly higher alternator/generator output is used to help charge the battery.

Think of the battery as an electrical piggy bank. It stores electricity. It also helps act as an electrical shock absorber. If a sudden change in electricity occurs in the airplane, the battery helps absorb that electrical spike, and creates more even flow through the aircraft system.

Ammeters show the draw on the battery; a positive value or close to neutral value shows that the alternator is doing it's job. A negative value shows that the battery is being discharged, and isn't being charged by the alternator.

Voltmeters tell you what the highest voltage is in the aircraft electrical system. A value lower than the nominal battery voltage tells you that the battery isn't fully charged, or is being drawn down. A voltage higher than battery voltage tells you that more electricity is available in the system than the battery puts out, which tells you that the electrical system is working, and implies that the battery is being charged.

Too high a charing rate isn't good; it tends to make batteries hot. This can be seen sometimes if a battery is really drawn down, such as if one really cranked on the starter, trying to get the engine to turn over. If the battery is depleted by the time the engine starts and the electrical system is engaged (alternator turned on), the sudden rush of electricity to the battery as it's recharged can make it hot. Some types of aircraft batteries, especially Nickel-Cadmium (NiCad) can experience a "thermal runaway" in which they keep getting hotter and hotter and have an internal breakdown which can melt the battery. In most light airplanes, these types of batteries are not usually used. Instead, the same type of battery that you find in your car, a lead acid battery, is used.

Your aircraft usually uses what's called a "negative ground" system. Because electricity flows through a conductor (wire, etc), with end connected to the negative terminal of the battery and one end connected through the positive terminal, aircraft use a simple method of flowing electricity. The frame, fuselage, or certain parts of the aircraft are connected to the negative terminal on the battery. This is called the "ground," or sometimes the "earth." The electrical components of the aircraft are hooked to the positive terminal through wires, switches, circuit breakers, etc. The other side of the electrical components is hooked to the frame. This reduces the wiring in some cases, and simplifies the way the electrical system is set up. Your car uses this method, too.

Electrical systems in the aircraft are hooked to metal bars that feed a number of wires. Each of these bars or groups of bars is called a "bus." Light aircraft often only have one or two busses, whereas large or complex aircraft may have dozens. These are basically like outlets in your house. Electricity goes to the bus, and then various components get their electricity off the bus. You'll see this term often used in aircraft flight manuals in the systems descriptions.

Circuit breakers exist in circuits (a circuit, remember,is the electrical source, the wires that conduct it, and the motor, light, or other resistor that's in the circuit) to protect the wiring in a circuit. These breakers are simple switches that usually open automatically if too much electricity is forced through the wiring. The circuit breakers are safety devices that get warm or trip magnetically, and open the circuit to stop the flow of electricity.

Understanding your electrical system is important: it lets you know how to recognize what's wrong, what's right, and what to do about it, and how to operate it safely and efficiently. In most cases, there's little to do as a pilot, but if system components fail (such as a generator failure), then knowing how to reduce the electrical load on the battery by knowing which components use the most electricity (lights transponder, etc), then you can make your electricity last longer. If you know that your flaps are electrical, you might consider not landing with the flaps, in an electrical failure situation, because if you need to go around, you might not have enough electricity to retract the flaps. If you have a retractable gear airplane, you might know that a failure of the gear to extend or retract might be a hot solenoid, and shutting off the electrical for ten minutes might fix the problem.

Knowing your system and how it works, unique to the aircraft you're flying, helps you know how to handle problems, and how to handle it when it's functioning properly.

Most light aircraft using piston engines use magnetos. These keep producing their own electricity and will keep the engine running even if the battery goes dead or gets shut off, and even if there's no power from the alternator/generator. These are simple devices which produce electricity for the spark plugs, and then distribute that electricity to the spark plugs. They are distributors just like you have in your car, but differ in that they can also produce the electricity; your airplane will have two each supplying one of two spark plugs in each cylinder, to help ensure that your engine will keep firing away even in the event of an electrical failure, or a failure of a single magneto.

This wasn't simple, but an -excellent- read for me, and I feel I have a much better understanding of the electrical systems of light airplanes (and cars, too)!
 
I don't believe this is 100% correct - For example, consider a signal with a +1v DC component and a 2Vp-p AC component. It'll always be traveling the same direction in the wire, but there is an AC component. Of course, for the alternating current to remain traveling the same direction, there must be a DC component as well. Anyway, I think a more correct definition of AC would be that the voltage varies in a periodic function.

Excellent explanation! Though, I must admit, as an early-on EE student, I thought about electricity via Henning's water analogy until I understood it better.

The DC is used to offset the AC. With +1 VDC the 2Vp-p AC would range between 0 and +2.
 
Gyroscopic effect? I wouldn't carry the analogies too far. To fully understand what is happening, we're talking about electrodynamics, specifically Maxwell's equations which govern how charged particles behave in electromagnetic fields. We won't get into the quantum effects that are also present... Henning's water analogy is an excellent one to understand the basic terms with everyday concepts, but it is just an analogy. Now trying to analyze this "fluid" flow of electons using classical mechanical concepts is not a good idea and was abandoned a couple of centuries ago ;)

I wanted basic, and got it.

Meanwhile--for fun, mind you--I have been reading up on quantum entanglement. But that's for another reason; not for helping me understand what's going on under the cowling!
 
Man did you get lots of help. I'm not going to read them all to avoid duplication so here is a really simple mechanical analogy.

Imagine that you are pushing a heavy concrete block across the floor. Voltage is the force that you are using to push the block. Current or amperage is the movement of the block that you are achieving (feet per second). Power or watts is the distance that you have moved the block in a specific time multiplied by the force that you used to move it. It shows up as the heat generated by the block rubbing over the floor as it moves.

Double the friction (resistance) between the block and the floor and it will only go half as fast (cuts current in half) if you apply the same force (voltage)

Generators and alternators are converters. They convert mechanical energy put in through the rotor shaft into electrical energy. They are basically electrical pumps.

Another great, simple explanation. Thanks!
 
I wanted basic, and got it.

Meanwhile--for fun, mind you--I have been reading up on quantum entanglement. But that's for another reason; not for helping me understand what's going on under the cowling!


Really? What have you read? Has anyone managed to say anything besides what concludes to "Wow, cool, WTF?" yet?:rofl: It's interesting though, verry interesting, but not funny.:lol:
 
From my understanding turbines still use generators (no real speed fluctuation issues) as they're double set to act as the starter motors as well.

Some turbine aircraft use separate starters and generators; some use starter-generators. Large turbines often use air powered starter motors and have AC generators. Air turbine starter motors are lightweight and utilize bleed air or start cart air for engine starts.

All generators are AC generators. Some are rectified to only output a filtered DC current. In the airplane I fly presently, we have 400 KVA generators on each engine, outputting a nominal 115 VAC, 400 hz 3 phase electricity. Elsewhere, we have 28 DC busses in the aircraft, and transformers for 26 VAC, and well as transformer-rectifiers for various busses or purposes. We also have dedicated inverters for normal and emergency/abnormal situations.

To ensure stable output from the generators, we have constant-speed drives (CSD's) which work somewhat like an automatic transmission, maintaining a stable Hz cycle output (cycles being a function of generator speed).

The APU's don't have CSD's. The APU is speed-regulated and maintains the output shafts to the 2 APU generators. The APU always operates at 100%.

We have two batteries; one for the main ship's battery, and one for the APU. The APU battery sits on a thermal heater to protect it as the battery gets cold soaked and exposed to -60 degree temps at altitude.
 
All generators are AC generators. Some are rectified to only output a filtered DC current

Negatory. A DC generator uses a commutator to reverse the current in the windings each half turn so it outputs DC. An alternator makes the correction with a rectifier after the electricity is generated. Older vehicles used to use DC generators but now almost univerally use alternators. However, you are not incorrect in calling your AC generators, "generators", and not "alternators", as the below from Wikipedia indicates:

"any AC electrical generator can be called an alternator, but usually the word refers to small rotating machines driven by automotive and other internal combustion engines."
 
Negatory. A DC generator uses a commutator to reverse the current in the windings each half turn so it outputs DC. An alternator makes the correction with a rectifier after the electricity is generated.

That part is true only for the DC motor. In a DC generator, the commutator(rotating switch) is actually doing the opposite. It's collecting the current from the rotating coil and reversing it's connection to the circuit via the brushes thus maintaining a steady flow on current in the same direction:)
 
That part is true only for the DC motor. In a DC generator, the commutator(rotating switch) is actually doing the opposite. It's collecting the current from the rotating coil and reversing it's connection to the circuit via the brushes thus maintaining a steady flow on current in the same direction:)

Ah, makes sense. We still generally say that a DC generator outputs DC.
 
Ah, makes sense. We still generally say that a DC generator outputs DC.

Yep, direct current and like you pointed out, an alternator (AC generator) uses rectifiers and filters to convert and refine alternating current into DC. From my understanding, it's actually a pulsating DC that is filtered as much as possible to apporximate true direct current. It not 100% DC as you get from a battery or DC generator.

This is how I remember it from school.
 
Yep, direct current and like you pointed out, an alternator (AC generator) uses rectifiers and filters to convert and refine alternating current into DC. From my understanding, it's actually a pulsating DC that is filtered as much as possible to apporximate true direct current. It not 100% DC as you get from a battery or DC generator.

This is how I remember it from school.

Yes, pulsing. The basic circuitry just flips the bottom lobes of the sine wave.
 
Imagine two cars driving down the street. One car is moving at a constant speed in a very smooth manner (DC).

The other car has a continuous jerky motion because the driver keeps hitting the break pedal as he moves (Pulsating DC). Although he's traveling in the same direction as the first car, he's not doing so in a clean, efficient manner. Some energy is lost in the process.
 
Yep, direct current and like you pointed out, an alternator (AC generator) uses rectifiers and filters to convert and refine alternating current into DC. From my understanding, it's actually a pulsating DC that is filtered as much as possible to approximate true direct current. It not 100% DC as you get from a battery or DC generator.

This is how I remember it from school.

Certainly depends on the efficiency of the filtering on the output of the rectifier which is dependent on the charge discharge cycle of the capacitor(s) in the circuit. Many circuits are not sensitive to the pulsating DC so they don't need good filtering and can be built much more cheaply.

P.S.

A lot of people have seen the result of a filter capacitor gone south on their TV. If one goes bad then the A.C. component can be seen on the TV as two bars that start at that bottom of the screen and rise on the screen and continue in that manner. The can be caused by other things but usually it is by a power supply gone bad.
 
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Certainly depends on the efficiency of the filtering on the output of the rectifier which is dependent on the charge discharge cycle of the capacitor(s) in the circuit. Many circuits are not sensitive to the pulsating DC so they don't need good filtering and can be built much more cheaply.

:yeahthat:
 
well it's been a long time since I've been in the classroom so I'm not gonna fake it:)
but I know that 1 Ampere is equal to one Coulomb of electric charge per second. Don't quite remember how many electrons that is:idea:

oops, worded that wrong.

1 coulomb of electric charge=1 ampere per second

You had it correct the first time. ampere per second would be a rate of change of current flow. A coulomb is a quantity of charge and 1 ampere is a rate at which charge flows.

Didn't that dude live in a cage? :D

At the very least he had a nice cage named for him. :D

Good, when you want to learn about electricity, talk to a plumber...:rofl:

You knew one of my EE professors? One of his famous quotes was about Uncle Kirchoff's plumbing law. "The sum of the currents into a paper bag is zero". :D
 
OK I've been searching for a better way to express myself in making the point of my sig, and I came up with this statement from Dr. Stephen Hawking. He said it better than I ever could. We think alike:lol:
Thanks Professor.


"any physical theory is always provisional, in the sense that it is only a hypothesis; you can never prove it. No matter how many times the results of experiments agree with some theory, you can never be sure that the next time the result will not contradict the theory. On the other hand, you can disprove a theory by finding even a single observation which disagrees with the predictions of the theory". The "unprovable but falsifiable" nature of theories is a consequence of the necessity of using inductive logic."
 
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