Just Quit Training

MBDiagMan said:
When I FIRST took up flying last year after a 20 year layoff, I spoke with a CFI near here in the process of trying to get started again. Remember, I had been away from flying for 20 years.

In the course of this telephone conversation I asked if they still use VOR's. He said with emphasis "Hell NO," and said something like you can get a GPS for $500 that will take you anywhere you want to go.

From this conversation I got the idea that they had just shut down all the VOR's and bulldozed them. I was pleasantly surprised once I found my old instructor and started flying with him again, that this was not the case.

I love GPS, but it would have been kind of silly to just stop using VOR's that are already in place. Luckily they still use charts too!:D
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I go along with the "hell no" CFI. For me, it would have been silly to spend an extra 2-4000 dollars to install nav/coms in my high performance kitbuilt experimental. For the type of flying I've always done, VORs were a compromise.......since they're line of sight, and I'd always have to fly higher than the mountain peaks to pick many of them up. Perhaps I'd have installed a nav/com or two...........if my series of GPSs hadn't worked so well for the last 18+ years. With a large moving map GPS, I still carry open charts, but would find little need with the VOR system. It would be nothing more than a multi-thousand dollar play thing......when I have nothing better to do. I can do that with a desktop flightsim....and it would be much cheaper.

For aircraft that still have nav/comms as standard, and especially with old GPSs such as a KL89B, or worse, I could see a preference for VOR nav work. Personally, I don't even like the small blocky texture screens of a Garmin 430. They too, are outdated.

If worse ever went to worse (gps wise), and somehow I got lost.....considering I've been glancing at a full detail moving map the whole time..........then I have my back up hand-held nav/com. In the meantime, I won't even start to agree with a particular CFI that told me I had no right to be flying........if I didn't dial OBSs before any cross country. It was something about airmanship & basics, he said. Well, VORs are not basics. They're just an electronic form of navigation invented in the 40's, that replaced another form before that. I like the precision of GPS with WAAS. It's more precise than VOR/DME; it's always there for instant awareness, and best of all, it isn't line of sight, and doesn't require triangulation or hop scotching between VORs.

It is a fact, many VORs will be decommisoned & perhaps bulldozed. For the near future, the FAA plans to keep a system of VORs as backup. Like VORs that are already in place, a bunch of those satellites are too. GPS satellites have been in space for two decades. New & more powerful units have been going into space to replace them.

I suppose it's kind of like having cell phones. I did away with my land line around five years ago. I don't miss it, either.

L.Adamson
 
LJS1993 said:
Guys I'm no pilot but I thought VOR was pretty much mandatory knowledge.
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Only to pass the written test. Practical flying test does not require it. Today, I could not even tell you want it does, nor would I if I did. Outdated and worthless IMHO. Moving map GPS is the only way to navigate today. Terrain warnings, tower info, roads for emergency landings, cities and towns, all airport into, all FAA flight services info, nearest airports, true altitude, accurate speeds, fuel calculations, in flight weather, cloud cover, traffic, and much more. Certainly people will disagree with me and they have, but I have not used it or needed it in 2500 hours and 46 out of 50 states. ;)

It would be cheaper and MUCH safer if the FAA would shut off all radio navigation and buy everyone a Garmin GPS. :D
 
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Why, if you have a smart device, would you need an e6b or learn how to use it? Why, if you have an iPad, would you need to learn to flight plan time and distance?
Because stuff happens. Batteries and devices kia all the time. An e6b doesn't.
A common accident is to run out of fuel. If you don't learn the basics, you're destined to be a statistic.
Why did you learn algebra or geometry in school? How about history? English basics?
 
silver-eagle said:
Why, if you have a smart device, would you need an e6b or learn how to use it? Why, if you have an iPad, would you need to learn to flight plan time and distance?
Because stuff happens. Batteries and devices kia all the time. An e6b doesn't.
A common accident is to run out of fuel. If you don't learn the basics, you're destined to be a statistic.
Why did you learn algebra or geometry in school? How about history? English basics?
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I'll always go to the trouble of getting a good idea of fuel usage, even if it's an online flight planner, which I'll usually use. But one thing for sure...... my electronic fuel measuring computer ---- beats the old method guesstimating & wondering if the fuel tank gauges are even working........by a long shot! It's nice to know that the on board fuel mangement system is always showing actual fuel usuage within a quart at every filling. Sure, problems can develop with even this type of system. It won't measure fuel tank leaks, and missing or loose fuel caps. It could even wear out. Still beats the "basics" by a mile.
 
LJS1993 said:
Guys I'm no pilot but I thought VOR was pretty much mandatory knowledge.
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Depends...I'm a sport pilot with no VOR experience. The planes I fly don't have VOR receivers in them, so I couldn't get tested on them on my ride. The sport knowledge exam doesn't cover them either, I don't believe. I didn't get any VOR questions at least.
 
Hard to use a GPS when there wasn't one in the airplane, handheld or otherwise. The closest thing to a GPS was the "Maps" app on my iPhone which I turned on for a minute just to satisfy my curiosity that it was useless. I must gravitate to the VOR because of the law of primacy. :rofl: I haven't routinely used VORs in quite some time.
 
wabower said:
The hardest part of teaching VOR/ILS? Getting the student to tune and identify the station.
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Never was an issue for me. Of course we have HIWAS on almost every one of them, so it was somewhat useful. Also I read a Flying article about some guys who flew into a mountain after tuning at 117.1 instead of 111.7 or some such.

Edit: I looked it up. They tuned to Drummond VOR at 117.1 instead of Helena at 117.7.
 
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Glad somebody has mastered the technique. You're one of very few who have done so.

zaitcev said:
Never was an issue for me. Of course we have HIWAS on almost every one of them, so it was somewhat useful. Also I read a Flying article about some guys who flew into a mountain after tuning at 117.1 instead of 111.7 or some such.
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wabower said:
Glad somebody has mastered the technique. You're one of very few who have done so.
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I actually like tuning and identifying, but I also know Morse Code. Almost got a pink slip on my Private ride for that long ago. Had to prove I really did know it to the DE. It was funny to watch him try to make the sounds. :)

Learned a lesson. Look at the chart and act like you're looking up the letters in that goofy WRONG dot and dash depiction. (Never never never learn Morse by counting dots and dashes. It's a character. A sound. A language. Each symbol a unique self-contained sound.)

Aviation CW is damn slow too. Hard to copy actually because it's slow enough to sound like individual E's and T's to me. The other problem is it's random character strings, not words. And you learn words like a real language as you learn to copy faster.

"DEN" is easy to copy. "FQF" your brain locks up with the thought, "Huh? That's not a word!?"

I always thought inner markers said exactly what you should be thinking... "Eeeeeeeeeeeek!" ;)

It goes from....

"Mmmmmmmm" better be ready to fly the approach now. Dah Dah Dah Dah Dah. (M M M M M)

To...

"Aaaaaaaaaaah" time to go missed. Di-Dah. Di-Dah. Di-Dah. Di-Dah. (A A A A)

To...

"Eeeeeeeeeeeek!" we're at the runway!!! Di-Di-Di-Di-Di-Di-dit! (E E E E E E E)

:)
 
Everskyward said:
Hard to use a GPS when there wasn't one in the airplane, handheld or otherwise. The closest thing to a GPS was the "Maps" app on my iPhone which I turned on for a minute just to satisfy my curiosity that it was useless. I must gravitate to the VOR because of the law of primacy. :rofl: I haven't routinely used VORs in quite some time.
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I have a minimum of 2 in each plane, not bragging, just wanting a backup if one goes TU.
Do yourself a favor and borrow one for your next flight. Direct to button is a wonderful thing. ;)

This is what is nice about the experimental world, you can put the latest and greatest in your panel every year if you have the bucks. Certainly keep it updated with the latest navigation equipment at a fraction of the cost for certified aircraft. HITS (highway in the sky) is a wonderful thing. :D

The FAA has mandated the commercial world to go to GPS. It will save fuel, reduce flight times, put more planes in the air, and utilize the current system by becoming more efficient. Certified GA will be right behind, experimental has been there for a decade.

http://mashable.com/2012/02/07/faa-gps/

http://i.switched.com/2010/05/28/faa-mandates-all-aircraft-must-use-gps-by-2020/
 
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With your attention to detail, is it also safe to assume you always have the most grandiose sand castle on the beach?:wink2:
denverpilot said:
I actually like tuning and identifying, but I also know Morse Code. Almost got a pink slip on my Private ride for that long ago. Had to prove I really did know it to the DE. It was funny to watch him try to make the sounds. :)

Learned a lesson. Look at the chart and act like you're looking up the letters in that goofy WRONG dot and dash depiction. (Never never never learn Morse by counting dots and dashes. It's a character. A sound. A language. Each symbol a unique self-contained sound.)

Aviation CW is damn slow too. Hard to copy actually because it's slow enough to sound like individual E's and T's to me. The other problem is it's random character strings, not words. And you learn words like a real language as you learn to copy faster.

"DEN" is easy to copy. "FQF" your brain locks up with the thought, "Huh? That's not a word!?"

I always thought inner markers said exactly what you should be thinking... "Eeeeeeeeeeeek!" ;)

It goes from....

"Mmmmmmmm" better be ready to fly the approach now. Dah Dah Dah Dah Dah. (M M M M M)

To...

"Aaaaaaaaaaah" time to go missed. Di-Dah. Di-Dah. Di-Dah. Di-Dah. (A A A A)

To...

"Eeeeeeeeeeeek!" we're at the runway!!! Di-Di-Di-Di-Di-Di-dit! (E E E E E E E)

:)
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Geico266 said:
Only to pass the written test. Practical flying test does not require it. Today, I could not even tell you want it does, nor would I if I did. Outdated and worthless IMHO. Moving map GPS is the only way to navigate today. Terrain warnings, tower info, roads for emergency landings, cities and towns, all airport into, all FAA flight services info, nearest airports, true altitude, accurate speeds, fuel calculations, in flight weather, cloud cover, traffic, and much more. Certainly people will disagree with me and they have, but I have not used it or needed it in 2500 hours and 46 out of 50 states. ;)

It would be cheaper and MUCH safer if the FAA would shut off all radio navigation and buy everyone a Garmin GPS. :D
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VOR/DME 35 approach into OLM is tough without the right equipment. Yeah, I know, the 430W walks you through it, too, but legally you have to have the VOR and DME to fly it.

Now, about the FAA upgrading the panels in the club's planes...
 
Matthewc66 said:
I need some advice.

I am in the middle of the cross country phase of my training and I have suspended training.

During this cross country phase I have spoken to dozens of pilots and they all tell me the same thing:

"We all have to do this but you will never use it again" .. He is referring to top of climb, diversions, etc..

I keep asking why do we need to do this if I will never use it again? He keeps telling me that is the way they do it, its the way they have always done it. He is not sure why they do it, knows we won't use it but doesnt want to change.
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I still do all of my flight planning on paper with the E6B. I enjoy it and it helps me to get my mind on the trip. For me it's 'part' of flying.

All of the automation tools and gadgets that we have today are tools that help you do the manual process but you still need to know the manual process. I wouldn't want to fly with a pilot who only knows how to hit DIRECT on the GPS and can't tell me what a WCA is or how to figure it.

Also, I'm not sure that I would let someone else tell me what I'll ever use or not use again. That's up to you to decide. Accept the training then you decide what you wish to retain.
 
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I find that allowing Foreflight to do all the calculations for me, leaves an empty feeling. When I do it by hand, I have a better sense of heading data in mind and IF the iPad and KLN-94 were to take a dump (albeit only likely in a satellite outage situation) then I would know heading data.

I think for now on, I'll carry printout flight plans, airport diagrams, freq lists, etc with me for long XCs...just to put my mind at ease IN CASE the electronics quit. I think that assurance is worth the cost of a few sheets of paper and ink from my new color Laser printer.
 
So I am thinking the OP was a troll. Has not come back on to POA since April 16th. We all got hooked on ths one. Still good conversation though.

David
 
No, I don't think so. He had posted a while back in his excitement about beginning flight training. He was just disgusted with the responses he got and bailed out, not only training, but also POA.
 
Geico266 said:
I was on your side, but got no comments about that. Now you quit because you did not get a compassionate ear? WTF? Are you a man or a little girl running away from a tough situation.....again.

The problem is you listened to the ass holes. The problem is your attitude.
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May I take a moment to speak up on behalf of little girls? He's no little girl! Little girls are made of sterner stuff.
 
MBDiagMan said:
You make a good point. When I was his age in 1968 I went through three years in the US Army. I wonder how he would react to THAT sort of an inconvenience?
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I joined the paratroops when I was 18. One of the biggest things they pounded into our heads over and over is that you never, ever quit. We did not like quitters under any circumstances. The theory was that as a paratrooper, you are supposed to be surrounded. Who exactly are you planning on quiting to? That is more often called surrendering, not quiting.

Anyway, I don't know how many times I wanted to give up on flight training, I sure had enough excuses. It was that brainwashing I received all those years ago that made me find a way of getting it done.

I have such an aversion to quitters, I doubt if I could have lived with myself had I done that.

So, as far as I'm concerned, screw the little crybaby. Aviation is much better off without his kind contaminating the rest of us.

-John
 
John Baker said:
I joined the paratroops when I was 18. One of the biggest things they pounded into our heads over and over is that you never, ever quit. We did not like quitters under any circumstances. The theory was that as a paratrooper, you are supposed to be surrounded. Who exactly are you planning on quiting to? That is more often called surrendering, not quiting.

Anyway, I don't know how many times I wanted to give up on flight training, I sure had enough excuses. It was that brainwashing I received all those years ago that made me find a way of getting it done.

I have such an aversion to quitters, I doubt if I could have lived with myself had I done that.

So, as far as I'm concerned, screw the little crybaby. Aviation is much better off without his kind contaminating the rest of us.

-John
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I don't agree with a lot of what you say but on this, sir, you are spot on.
 
Anthony said:
Really? Advice? What was the title of his post? Just QUIT Training.

He posted to get reinforcement for quitting, that's all. People, including myself didn't tell him what he wanted to hear, we told him the truth. You have to want this thing.
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Read his first post.

-M
 
IowaMatt said:
Read his first post.

-M
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I did. In fact I just read it again. Doesn't change my post or thoughts a bit. What's your point?

In fact I re-read the title of his post again too. Maybe you shoud re-read it also.
 
Anthony said:
I did. In fact I just read it again. Doesn't change my post or thoughts a bit. What's your point?

In fact I re-read the title of his post again too. Maybe you shoud re-read it also.
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This is not complicated. He started off his post, "I need some advice."

You turned that into an opportunity to be a keyboard warrior and sucker punched the guy.

You replied to my post- that is my point.

-M
 
IowaMatt said:
This is not complicated. He started off his post, "I need some advice."
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My advice would be :
- Stop listening to other pilots
- suck it up, finish your training
 
My feeling is if your start something, finish it. What, was there someone out there who said getting a pilots license is easy?

I admit, for some folks who are more intelligent than myself, some things do seem to come easy. I think though, it is because we have a tendency to underestimate those folks, who know how to apply themselves to whatever task, that they make it appear easy.

We then think that if they can do it, so can I, without realizing just how much effort actually was put into it.

Irregardless of all of that, before we start any task, we should at least have some concept of what will be involved so that we will have the wherewithal to see it through.

Then there are uneducated idiots much like myself who blindly jump into any endeavor without bothering to even consider for a moment, what it is going to entail to complete it. Being such a person who blunders through life like an out of control missile, it is even more important to figure it out as we stumble along, working harder to get it done.

For me, getting a pilots license was a ***** from day one. Had I any common sense at all, I would have quit a bunch of times, but I didn't. I did not quit, although I threatened to many times, I saw it through.

After six years of trying, now I are a real pilot. :)

-John
 
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IowaMatt said:
That is probably what he needed to hear.
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I happen to disagree.
Ultimately he heard everything he was supposed to hear, most importantly he heard that his idea of flying 'with Ipad' at his particular training phase was ill advised or outright silly. But the way he framed the conversation and put forth his arguments (there were none actually) was highly immature. Flying is not for immature people - we could have saved his life. Some people are better off not flying.
 
Lot's of 8 balls and hookers could have been bought for the price of aviation over the years.
 
Tracey said:
Yeah, but which one is more fun?

Aviation. :yesnod:
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Aviation has been more practical, I'll give it that, and occasionally aviation has even managed to pay my living. More fun though, gonna have to plea the fifth there.:dunno:
 
Matthewc66 said:
I need some advice.

I am in the middle of the cross country phase of my training and I have suspended training.

During this cross country phase I have spoken to dozens of pilots and they all tell me the same thing:

"We all have to do this but you will never use it again" .. He is referring to top of climb, diversions, etc..

I keep asking why do we need to do this if I will never use it again? He keeps telling me that is the way they do it, its the way they have always done it. He is not sure why they do it, knows we won't use it but doesnt want to change.

He uses Foreflight and keeps reminding me that all this training that I am paying for is essentially worthless as I will never use it again.

Truthfully, I think I am "flown out" and am so bored with training right now I can't even look at it.

I would like to find a school that trains with Foreflight so I can learn with what I will use in the cockpit.

I am not sure there are schools like this and I am at the point where I am not going to continue training if I have to do top of climbs all day.

At a cross roads, need some advice..

Matt

Ps I am in North County San Diego near Palomar..
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Sounds like the instructor needs a refresher or possibly a career change. The TOC is important forgo you can precisely plan and complete your planning. I recommend sitting down with your instructor first and talk to him about cross country flight planning with paper charts. Don't give up on flying, it is a wonderful hobby and great career for many of us.
 
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