Advice, please -- Whom Shall We Sue? (Non-Av)

The salt spray on an island could easily disrupt a magnetic card or its reader. Thus Jay's experience on his island could be very different from the rest of us on the mainland. While it does not verify his very sweeping generalization, it does make them understandable.

As far as the original question, I would suggest talking to an attorney, I doubt any of us have any worthwhile insight whatsoever. You will have to determine whether doing business with Expedia, counting this particular snafu, is financially worth it, i.e. are you still ahead if you loose money like this on a recurrent basis. I sincerely hope you leave your ego out of the equation, it is just business. Expedia's model is neither honest nor forthright, but it is obviously very successful.
 
Should you sue?


It depends.


:D
 
The Expert-in-Residence around here is besieged at every gathering by some health enthusiast who wants to bend his ear about the latest miracle cure they found online or at the health food store. He smiles and nods politely, and says, "I never argue with success."

So, no matter how relieved I feel about not having to mail back the darn door key that came home with me, if the voice of experience says the key-card doesn't work on Mustang Island, it doesn't. That's all that needs to be said, isn't it? If I were in danger of being hauled out of bed several times a night by guests whose electronic strip had been corrupted, I wouldn't fool with that system either.
 
Everskyward said:
They may have been invented for the hotel industry's convenience but I find them to be convenient too. I rarely have problems and when I do it's not hard to correct. The hotel chains have 24-hour staff who can reprogram the key.

Maybe that's what you prefer but if you would listen to what people are trying to tell you in this thread, that's not what many people prefer for business travel. They are not necessarily looking for interesting and fun especially if they need to put in a lot of effort which may or may not be successful. My hotel stays are probably close to 95% business. As a group, I know the pilots I work with prefer hotels which have free internet and free breakfast. Other things they like are flat-screen TVs with many channel choices since they have them on from the time they check in to the time they check out (don't include me in that group), refrigerator and microwave. I prefer to have a desk and good lighting. Many people also like hotel points which they use when they go on vacation with their families. Obviously boutique hotels do not honor these points.

I know you have very strong ideas about what you prefer but you can't assume other people feel the same way.
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I completely agree, but I find more and more mid and upper tier chains charge pretty high fees for internet. I have had to be firm with the Four Seasons over the issue. I have found things both ways with independents. Personally I'll take a chance if I get one referred to me by someone pleased with their experience. I've stayed in some great little places like Hotel Normandy in Cap D`ail, and with some small regional chains in like Hotel Citadel in Amsterdam. But for the most part I agree with with you. If I haven't got a referral and I'm on business travel, I prefer to be where there are known ammenities. As for Free Breakfast though, my experience says you are more likely to get an excellent free breakfast in a great setting from an independent.

This is from the Breakfast Balcony at the Hotel Normandy, breakfast was fantastic:
137.JPG
 
Henning, you look a lot more feminine than I remember. Hormones?





:D
 
wanttaja said:
OTOH, I stayed in a hotel a couple of weeks back (not in the US) that used old-fashioned skeleton keys. Cute...but once you were in the room, if you wanted out, you had to thread the key through the lock before turning it. "Thread" as in inserting the key dead level and straight and pushing it through all the way (if the key was offset, it went into the nether regions of the door and didn't do the lock). Made me miss the kind of lock that let one turn the handle and leave in a hurry in case there was a fire....


Ron Wanttaja
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Wow -- skeleton keys? From the INSIDE, to get OUT?

That is patently illegal.
 
Henning said:
Personally my observance of the failure of the mag card units even in severe climate is no worse than 1 in 50. It's rare that I can't make it work in a few tries.
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For Mary and me, it's a one in five failure rate. (We track it pretty carefully, since we're always hoping they improve.) They fail more often on a multiple day stay, when the front desk has misprogrammed the card to stop working after 24 hours (the default setting) instead of (for example) three days.

It's why we put up with the inconvenience of real locks. They work -- all the time. Yes, it's a PIA when someone loses a key -- but it's my PIA to bear, not the guest's.
 
Everskyward said:
Maybe that's what you prefer but if you would listen to what people are trying to tell you in this thread, that's not what many people prefer for business travel.
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I guess that's been the problem from the get-go in this thread -- I failed to mention the fact that our hotel doesn't cater to business travelers, and my negative remarks about chains do not apply to those who are traveling on business.

If I was stuck in a different city ever night, on business, I'd look for the consistency of a chain motel, too. In that situation, blandness is a virtue, whereas for vacation travel, it's a vice.
 
Jay Honeck said:
I guess that's been the problem from the get-go in this thread -- I failed to mention the fact that our hotel doesn't cater to business travelers, and my negative remarks about chains do not apply to those who are traveling on business.

If I was stuck in a different city ever night, on business, I'd look for the consistency of a chain motel, too. In that situation, blandness is a virtue, whereas for vacation travel, it's a vice.
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I'd agree with that. I'd also agree some chains are much better than others. There's a few chains that my colleagues and I won't stay at, ever, because their quality is such a crap shoot (pun slightly intended).
 
I think it's kind of sad to see all the crap that Jay's getting handed on this. He's building another aviation-themed hotel and some of the responses here are "less than cordial" unless I'm speed-reading them wrong.
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Thanks for the kind words, but there's no need to defend me. This is, after all, the internet, where anonymous people can be big men (or women) while sitting in the comfort of their own bedroom.

I've learned that when you hang everything out in the wind, as Mary and I have done with our hotels (and other businesses), there is a subset of society that will do what it can to tear down your efforts. Sometimes it's subtle, sometimes it's blatant, but it's just a fact of life.

I asked for people's opinions, and I got it -- so it would be silly to let it bother me. Most people here are wonderful, and I have received far more help than hindrance from the pilots who frequent this group.
 
AND THE END RESULT OF ALL OF THIS IS:

We spoke with Heartland (the company who does our credit card processing), and they strongly advised us AGAINST going to arbitration -- even though we have a printout from Expedia showing that the guest booked the room.

As was mentioned several pages back, by someone whose husband works for Visa, if we don't have the credit card swiped in-person, we don't have a leg to stand on, and it matters not what paperwork we have. We will lose, and we would be fined $2,000 ($500 per reservation) for the pleasure.

So, here's what immediately changes in our future operations. Expedia reservations obviously mean nothing -- so if you use that service, understand that you are using them at your own risk.

I will regard reservations received through Expedia as meaningless pieces of paper, and if your reservation smells funny to me in any way, and someone walks in with real money -- or a credit card that I can swipe -- and you are not present, I will take their money.

In other words, you have no reservation at all if you use Expedia on a sell-out weekend here -- which is basically from Memorial Day to Labor Day.

Got a problem, take it up with Expedia. I will not lose one of these again.
 
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steingar said:
The salt spray on an island could easily disrupt a magnetic card or its reader. Thus Jay's experience on his island could be very different from the rest of us on the mainland. While it does not verify his very sweeping generalization, it does make them understandable.

As far as the original question, I would suggest talking to an attorney, I doubt any of us have any worthwhile insight whatsoever. You will have to determine whether doing business with Expedia, counting this particular snafu, is financially worth it, i.e. are you still ahead if you loose money like this on a recurrent basis. I sincerely hope you leave your ego out of the equation, it is just business. Expedia's model is neither honest nor forthright, but it is obviously very successful.
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Fine, use a plastic Ving Card. You can do those in house, common for marina use, but then so is a magnetic swipe card. I have a dozen different electronic cards for marinas and the environment doesn't get a whole lot worse.
The "swipe chip" systems seem to work best.
 
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Jay Honeck said:
I will regard reservations received through Expedia as meaningless pieces of paper, and if your reservation smells funny to me in any way, and someone walks in with real money -- or a credit card that I can swipe -- and you are not present, I will take their money.

In other words, you have no reservation at all if you use Expedia on a sell-out weekend here -- which is basically from Memorial Day to Labor Day.

Got a problem, take it up with Expedia. I will not lose one of these again.
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What agreement do you have with gena-res about the reservations they forward to you ?
 
Jay Honeck said:
AND THE END RESULT OF ALL OF THIS IS:

We spoke with Heartland (the company who does our credit card processing), and they strongly advised us AGAINST going to arbitration -- even though we have a printout from Expedia showing that the guest booked the room.

As was mentioned several pages back, by someone whose husband works for Visa, if we don't have the credit card swiped in-person, we don't have a leg to stand on, and it matters not what paperwork we have. We will lose, and we would be fined $2,000 ($500 per reservation) for the pleasure.

So, here's what immediately changes in our future operations. Expedia reservations obviously mean nothing -- so if you use that service, understand that you are using them at your own risk.

I will regard reservations received through Expedia as meaningless pieces of paper, and if your reservation smells funny to me in any way, and someone walks in with real money -- or a credit card that I can swipe -- and you are not present, I will take their money.

In other words, you have no reservation at all if you use Expedia on a sell-out weekend here -- which is basically from Memorial Day to Labor Day.

Got a problem, take it up with Expedia. I will not lose one of these again.
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If you're not going to treat Expedia reservations with respect - don't use them. If I booked a hotel through Expedia and arrived for you to tell me that you ignored it because you don't like them - I *would never* do business with you again. I'm not sure what else I would do about it but you can expect I'd do something. I sure wouldn't be mad at Expedia about it.

Decide how much business you get through them and how many problems you've had then do the math. Either be on Expedia or don't. But don't screw people over. I'm sorry Jay but you're being by FAR worse then Expedia if you do as you just said above.

Step back from this and read what you wrote. It's absolutely ridiculous.
 
plus1.png


What I wrote a while back. Do the math. Use Expedia or use not, there is no try.
 
I tend to use Hotels.com, and depending on what country you're in it will take you to different sites. The one you get in Netherlands has some really good places including a lot of independents.
 
Jay Honeck said:
Wow -- skeleton keys? From the INSIDE, to get OUT?

That is patently illegal.
Click to expand...

That is also commonplace outside the US (NOT skeleton keys, but keys must be used to lock yourself in the room at night) for smaller boutique hotels that don't have electronic/Ving locks. They have a large weight attached, and you are admonished to leave the key at the front desk when not in the room.

Good system, wouldn't work in the US for "security" concerns. And liability concerns on the part of the hotel operator.

Last hotel I stayed in with that sort of key arrangement was a few months ago in Paris.

Jay Honeck said:
I guess that's been the problem from the get-go in this thread -- I failed to mention the fact that our hotel doesn't cater to business travelers, and my negative remarks about chains do not apply to those who are traveling on business.

If I was stuck in a different city ever night, on business, I'd look for the consistency of a chain motel, too. In that situation, blandness is a virtue, whereas for vacation travel, it's a vice.
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Agree. I look for something unique on vacation (unless I'm going cheap and using award points), and on business trips when I can.
 
Jay:

This might seem silly, but it happened to me, and you might see if this is the problem with your mag-swipe cards. When I travel for work I carry a Blackberry that has a magnetic closure on the phone case. Every time I stuck the card in my pocket (the same pocket as the phone) it "wiped the card." After my third card, it occurred to me what was happening, put the card in another pocket & the card worked the door. I try and stay aware of that now and have had much better luck. If your customer are having trouble with their cards, see what kind of cell phone holster they have!
 
I don't understand why people use any of these cheap motel sites, I have had better luck dealing directly with the motel. You can get the same discounted rooms off the company website as you do Hotels.com or Expedia.com
 
Dean said:
I don't understand why people use any of these cheap motel sites, I have had better luck dealing directly with the motel. You can get the same discounted rooms off the company website as you do Hotels.com or Expedia.com
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Searchability is the reason.

People go to these sites because they have no idea of what is available in an area and these sites act as an aggregator of local information. Chain hotels benefit doubly as people will often just go to the chain's website and search for that town. The person who can take advantage of this type of online advertising through the 3rd party hotel aggregators stands a better chance of getting the business.

I know when I look for independent hotels for vacation I am looking for upscale boutique properties and there are associations for that. Jay is not quite there at attracting that market segment, he is more of a mid tier or low tier theme motel. Nothing wrong with that, it is just that he is in a small market niche and it seems to me that he must attract the same people who would be vacationing at the Best Western down the street.

Limiting his ability to get reservations is just going to help his competitors out. Hopefully he has worked out a promotion deal at the FBO. But I doubt that would give him a sustainable amount of business and he would still need to attract non-flying low expenditure vacationers. Jay has to advertise much more than the chains to attract visitors.
 
Jay Honeck said:
So, here's what immediately changes in our future operations. Expedia reservations obviously mean nothing -- so if you use that service, understand that you are using them at your own risk.

I will regard reservations received through Expedia as meaningless pieces of paper, and if your reservation smells funny to me in any way, and someone walks in with real money -- or a credit card that I can swipe -- and you are not present, I will take their money.

In other words, you have no reservation at all if you use Expedia on a sell-out weekend here -- which is basically from Memorial Day to Labor Day.

Got a problem, take it up with Expedia. I will not lose one of these again.
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Jay-

You won't like what I'll say, but if I make a reservation through Expedia (or another web site) and I get "walked", I will hold it against the business.

I really don't care what beef a hotel has against Expedia- to my eyes, I have a reservation with a confirmation number at that hotel. If the hotle doesn't honor that reservation, you can bet that I'll complain to Expedia and post on all the travel web sites. I'm pretty sure I'm not alone in seeing things this way- my time is valuable when I'm on vacation too, and I don't want to spend time finding a hotel when I thought all was well.

You're between the devil and the sea on this one.
 
Dean said:
I don't understand why people use any of these cheap motel sites, I have had better luck dealing directly with the motel. You can get the same discounted rooms off the company website as you do Hotels.com or Expedia.com
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I use them when I don't know the area, especially if there are no chains. I use Expedia on over seas trips if the sales person or dealer can't recommend something, then give the hotels to the travel coordinator that books them.
 
Jay Honeck said:
I guess that's been the problem from the get-go in this thread -- I failed to mention the fact that our hotel doesn't cater to business travelers, and my negative remarks about chains do not apply to those who are traveling on business.

If I was stuck in a different city ever night, on business, I'd look for the consistency of a chain motel, too. In that situation, blandness is a virtue, whereas for vacation travel, it's a vice.
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You're right. When I think of travel it's either for business or family responsibilities (where I have my own lodging and don't need a hotel), not vacation. It's not that I don't like travel, I just do it so often that I don't think of it as entertainment. I like going out and seeing the sights when I end up somewhere for whatever reason, but I'm not really into putting forth much effort when searching for lodging. I'm pretty easy to please anyway, and the chains usually have everything I need.
 
Dean said:
I don't understand why people use any of these cheap motel sites, I have had better luck dealing directly with the motel. You can get the same discounted rooms off the company website as you do Hotels.com or Expedia.com
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I just found out I'll be in Stockholm tomorrow night... who do I call?
 
Henning said:
I just found out I'll be in Stockholm tomorrow night... who do I call?
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Helga! I have her number around here somewhere...:D

Oh, wait, that wasn't what you meant...:rofl:
 
Cap'n Jack said:
Jay-

You won't like what I'll say, but if I make a reservation through Expedia (or another web site) and I get "walked", I will hold it against the business.

I really don't care what beef a hotel has against Expedia- to my eyes, I have a reservation with a confirmation number at that hotel. If the hotle doesn't honor that reservation, you can bet that I'll complain to Expedia and post on all the travel web sites. I'm pretty sure I'm not alone in seeing things this way- my time is valuable when I'm on vacation too, and I don't want to spend time finding a hotel when I thought all was well.

You're between the devil and the sea on this one.
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And now you know why the chains overbook by 15%, treat reservations as completely non-binding, and walk people they think are less important.
 
jesse said:
If you're not going to treat Expedia reservations with respect - don't use them. If I booked a hotel through Expedia and arrived for you to tell me that you ignored it because you don't like them - I *would never* do business with you again. I'm not sure what else I would do about it but you can expect I'd do something. I sure wouldn't be mad at Expedia about it.

Decide how much business you get through them and how many problems you've had then do the math. Either be on Expedia or don't. But don't screw people over. I'm sorry Jay but you're being by FAR worse then Expedia if you do as you just said above.

Step back from this and read what you wrote. It's absolutely ridiculous.
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Oh, well. Because of the way Expedia and the credit card companies work, because of how dishonest and unethical they are, someone is going to be pi$$ed off in the situation I described, above.

The only good news is that it won't be me anymore.

If you want a real guaranteed reservation, call us, or pre-pay. If you want a faux reservation that works most of the time, click on Expedia.
 
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Dean said:
I don't understand why people use any of these cheap motel sites, I have had better luck dealing directly with the motel. You can get the same discounted rooms off the company website as you do Hotels.com or Expedia.com
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I am with you. I tend to just get on the internet and see what is in the area, then call the hotel directly. I used to go to either hotels.com, or if it was a chain I would go to their 800 number, but I would often get told that no rooms were available. I started calling the hotel itself, and I have better luck. I also get better deals. Often times the person that I am talking to will give me some kind of discount, be it AARP, Triple A, or whatever. I seldom go by price, and when I have, I've been disappointed. I generally go with a chain, but sometimes there isn't a chain where I am going. I went to Yountville, CA for a bicycle tour of the NAPA wine country. I asked the tour company to recommend a hotel, and they did a very good job. Although it wasn't a chain, it was a newer, modern hotel. We got a nice discount because we were doing the bike tour, and they have some sort of agreement with the hotel.
 
Maxmosbey said:
I am with you. I tend to just get on the internet and see what is in the area, then call the hotel directly. I used to go to either hotels.com, or if it was a chain I would go to their 800 number, but I would often get told that no rooms were available. I started calling the hotel itself, and I have better luck. I also get better deals. Often times the person that I am talking to will give me some kind of discount, be it AARP, Triple A, or whatever. I seldom go by price, and when I have, I've been disappointed. I generally go with a chain, but sometimes there isn't a chain where I am going. I went to Yountville, CA for a bicycle tour of the NAPA wine country. I asked the tour company to recommend a hotel, and they did a very good job. Although it wasn't a chain, it was a newer, modern hotel. We got a nice discount because we were doing the bike tour, and they have some sort of agreement with the hotel.
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You are 100% correct in the way you are doing things. The best way to make a reservation is:

1. Go on-line, to see what's available. Pick a few places that look nice.
2. Search for their local phone number. If it's not readily available (and I mean one click in Google) -- do not stay there.
3. Call during regular business hours and ask for the manager and/or owner.
4. Tell them you are about to book on-line, but would prefer to book with him/her, and ask what sort of deal can you offer?

If you are dealing with a competent hotel, they will beat the on-line deal every time. If they can't, do not stay there, as they are either run by idiots, or are so tightly controlled by their home office that they are powerless to do what makes economic sense for both parties.
 
That is also commonplace outside the US (NOT skeleton keys, but keys must be used to lock yourself in the room at night) for smaller boutique hotels that don't have electronic/Ving locks. They have a large weight attached, and you are admonished to leave the key at the front desk when not in the room.

Good system, wouldn't work in the US for "security" concerns. And liability concerns on the part of the hotel operator.
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Needing a key to get out of a hotel room isn't illegal because of security reasons -- it's a safety issue. If the building is on fire, and you can't find your key, you cannot escape. That's a bad situation.
 
steingar said:
What I wrote a while back. Do the math. Use Expedia or use not, there is no try.
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Disagree. Expedia is useful to me, and they provide us with a fair amount of business. They are the ones who have decided that their reservations aren't guaranteed -- not me.

We will continue to use them.
 
Jay Honeck said:
And now you know why the chains overbook by 15%, treat reservations as completely non-binding, and walk people they think are less important.
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Jay- Quite honestly, I've never had a problem with the chains. I really don't know why you beat that horse. That just won't hunt with me. Have I used enough metaphors for you? You've said that you're not after that business (business travelers) as that's not your market niche.

I've never been "walked" by a chain, although I've been in cities when something (graduation, HAM Fest, etc) was happening.

So- because I've never had an issue with two chains I use for business travel, and the chains play to a different market niche, let's leave them out of the discussion. It's a non sequitor.

Send me "walking" on a confirmed room, and you'll have to deal with it. I will post my experiences. I don't want to hear about how evil Expedia is, or the credit card companies.

If Expedia (or the other on-line places) don't work for you, get out of their system. But don't EVER play games with your customers. You may win that battle, but you'll lose the war.
 
weilke said:
What agreement do you have with gena-res about the reservations they forward to you ?
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The same one that says they will stand behind any reservation they send us.

Oh, wait. It doesn't say that at all. :rolleyes:

Another meaningless piece of paper, in a bogus industry. On-line booking agents are the sub-prime mortgage lenders of the internet business world. They are a fluff, feel-good investment with nothing real behind them...
 
Cap'n Jack said:
Jay- Quite honestly, I've never had a problem with the chains. I really don't know why you beat that horse. That just won't hunt with me. Have I used enough metaphors for you? You've said that you're not after that business (business travelers) as that's not your market niche.

I've never been "walked" by a chain, although I've been in cities when something (graduation, HAM Fest, etc) was happening.

So- because I've never had an issue with two chains I use for business travel, and the chains play to a different market niche, let's leave them out of the discussion. It's a non sequitor.

Send me "walking" on a confirmed room, and you'll have to deal with it. I will post my experiences. I don't want to hear about how evil Expedia is, or the credit card companies.

If Expedia (or the other on-line places) don't work for you, get out of their system. But don't EVER play games with your customers. You may win that battle, but you'll lose the war.
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You've taken my response out of context (surprise!), but you seem to be missing the salient point here, which is that if you use Expedia you do not have a guaranteed reservation -- and all I am doing is changing my policy toward those reservations to match what the chains have done all along.
 
Jay Honeck said:
Oh, well. Because of the way Expedia and the credit card companies work, because of how dishonest and unethical they are, someone is going to be pi$$ed off in the situation I described, above.

The only good news is that it won't be me anymore.
If you want a real guaranteed reservation, call us, or pre-pay. If you want a faux reservation that works most of the time, click on Expedia.
Click to expand...

I'd love to see the update to this thread in 12 months from now.
 
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Jay Honeck said:
Oh, well. Because of the way Expedia and the credit card companies work, because of how dishonest and unethical they are, someone is going to be pi$$ed off in the situation I described, above.

The only good news is that it won't be me anymore.

If you want a real guaranteed reservation, call us, or pre-pay. If you want a faux reservation that works most of the time, click on Expedia.
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I expect most of your customers aren't on PoA. You can't have it both ways- stay on Expedia, but not honor what they believe are bona fide reservations.

Jay Honeck said:
You've taken my response out of context (surprise!), but you seem to be missing the salient point here, which is that if you use Expedia you do not have a guaranteed reservation -- and all I am doing is changing my policy toward those reservations to match what the chains have done all along.
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Most of us don't know the hotel industry. I sure don't. I really don't care either. What we know is that I have a piece of paper from my computer printer that has a confirmation number for a flight, another for a car, and one more for a hotel. If the hotel doesn't honor their number, who do you think John Q. Public will be upset with? It probably won't be Expedia.
 
Jay Honeck said:
Oh, well. Because of the way Expedia and the credit card companies work, because of how dishonest and unethical they are, someone is going to be pi$$ed off in the situation I described, above.

The only good news is that it won't be me anymore.

If you want a real guaranteed reservation, call us, or pre-pay. If you want a faux reservation that works most of the time, click on Expedia.
Click to expand...
In these days of social media, I will bet dollars to donuts you will ultimately be the one pi$$ed.
 
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