Advice, please -- Whom Shall We Sue? (Non-Av)

[N801BH]

Jay-

You won't like what I'll say, but if I make a reservation through Expedia (or another web site) and I get "walked", I will hold it against the business.

I really don't care what beef a hotel has against Expedia- to my eyes, I have a reservation with a confirmation number at that hotel. If the hotle doesn't honor that reservation, you can bet that I'll complain to Expedia and post on all the travel web sites. I'm pretty sure I'm not alone in seeing things this way- my time is valuable when I'm on vacation too, and I don't want to spend time finding a hotel when I thought all was well.

You're between the devil and the sea on this one.

Good points...

I guess my question is to Jay.... If a person books a room from you through Expedia can you explain how this works... As Cap't Jack mentioned,, what is the confirmation good for. ? Did the four rooms that didn't pan out have one of those numbers for that booking ? Just curious.

Ben.

 

[denverpilot]

+1. Frankly, as a relatively new POAer, I'm surprised by the incivility of several posts in this and several other threads directed at a lot of people (and coming FROM a lot of folks .... Not picking on any small group). I expect a certain amount of rancor and baiting from all sides in the Spin Zone, but not in the general forums.

SZ attracts people who like to argue incessantly and then they're also here outside of SZ.

I turned it on briefly, got sucked into the stupidity, and then turned it off again forever.

The problem, as I see it, is the PoA "hotel" has two floors, but the rowdy bunch on the 2nd Floor spills over into the lobby and pees in the fountain from time to time too.

(To add a hotel analogy to a hotel thread. Perhaps the hotel caters to the wrong guests by even having a SZ. Grin!!!)

I'm looking forward to visiting Jay's hotel someday, all this silly bickering about keys, and websites, and whatever, aside.

I won't need the newspaper though. That's a by-gone relic.

 

[Obi Heed Kenobi]

My advice is to read whatever contracts you've got. You're setting yourself up for a PR nightmare at the least, and potentially much more serious problems.

The contracts, or listing agreement with Expedia, or whatever it is you've done to have yourself put on their system, will spell out exactly what your obligations are in regard to Expedia reservations. If those obligations aren't acceptable, then cancel the deal.

Don't set yourself up for a boatload of problems.

 

[ron22]

Jay, I do not think the way you are going to handle Expedia is a good choice. Either use them or dont, either over book or dont. you said 18% of your bussines is from Expedia. You are talking about ****ing off 18% of you bussines if you do not honor their reservation and posible "walk" them.

 

[Henning]

Helga! I have her number around here somewhere...

Oh, wait, that wasn't what you meant...

Actually for that I contact my buddy Kevin... he has has a Black Book that is pretty much in there for an all time "win".

 

[Rndmtrvlr]

SZ attracts people who like to argue incessantly and then they're also here outside of SZ.

I turned it on briefly, got sucked into the stupidity, and then turned it off again forever.

Wow. That's the best advice I've seen on PoA, aviation related or otherwise (well, except for all the relationship advice that Kimberly was getting for a while).

Where's the off button for SZ?

 

[wsuffa]

Needing a key to get out of a hotel room isn't illegal because of security reasons -- it's a safety issue. If the building is on fire, and you can't find your key, you cannot escape. That's a bad situation.

Got that. But it's also typical to leave the key hanging in the lock on the inside of the room when you're in there (that's why the big rubber bumper on the weight). No worse than the deadlock on your home door.

 

[Jay Honeck]

Good points...

I guess my question is to Jay.... If a person books a room from you through Expedia can you explain how this works... As Cap't Jack mentioned,, what is the confirmation good for. ? Did the four rooms that didn't pan out have one of those numbers for that booking ? Just curious.

Ben.

I'm not sure I understand the question -- but Expedia will not supply us with a customer phone number. They do this so we cannot call the customer and offer them a better deal than Expedia is offering, thus saving ourselves the 15% commission that Expedia charges.

Thus, when the guy who booked four rooms with us didn't show up, we had no way to contact him.

The bottom line is that you have no guaranteed reservation with Expedia when you stay...anywhere. Up until now, we have treated an Expedia reservation exactly the same as a real, "guaranteed" reservation. That ended today, when Expedia refused to honor their customers's payment, and stiffed us for four reservations that they accepted.

From now on, we will treat Expedia reservations exactly the way the big chain hotels have done for years -- which is to say, as a "suggestion of a promise and a hope that you might show up". This means that from your end, you have a "suggestion of a promise and a hope that you might have a room when you get there" when you book with Expedia.

It's a double-edged sword that cuts both ways, and it's the way the industry works, sadly.

 

[Jay Honeck]

My advice is to read whatever contracts you've got. You're setting yourself up for a PR nightmare at the least, and potentially much more serious problems.

The contracts, or listing agreement with Expedia, or whatever it is you've done to have yourself put on their system, will spell out exactly what your obligations are in regard to Expedia reservations. If those obligations aren't acceptable, then cancel the deal.

Don't set yourself up for a boatload of problems.

Again, all I am doing is changing my policy from what I have done for years, to what the chain motels have done for years. In other words, I am no longer exceeding the industry standard WRT Expedia -- I am matching it.

The fact that I find this distasteful, and that I find the act of overbooking and walking people unethical, is really a personal problem for me. It's the way the industry works, and Expedia obviously EXPECTS us to behave in this way, regarding their customers, or they would have behaved differently when four of their reservations turned out to be bogus. I mean, really, if they wanted us to treat their reservations like guaranteed reservations, they themselves would have treated them like guaranteed reservations.

But they didn't. My loss, and they have washed their hands of responsibility for the reservations they accepted. Live and learn.

It's taken over 9 years in this industry, but I finally, fully understand why the chains do business the way they do with regard to their customers. They are behaving in the only way that makes economic sense.

 

[Jay Honeck]

I expect most of your customers aren't on PoA. You can't have it both ways- stay on Expedia, but not honor what they believe are bona fide reservations.

The point you're missing is that your Expedia reservation has never been more sacred at any chain motel than any other kind of reservation. If they overbook by 15% -- and we know they do -- and everyone shows up, it doesn't matter who you booked with -- if you're the last person to show up, you do not have a reservation.

We have always done things differently, by refusing to overbook, and by honoring an Expedia reservation as if it were pre-paid, and in the bank. That ended today -- we will now treat an Expedia reservation EXACTLY the way all of the big chain motels do.

Most of us don't know the hotel industry. I sure don't. I really don't care either. What we know is that I have a piece of paper from my computer printer that has a confirmation number for a flight, another for a car, and one more for a hotel. If the hotel doesn't honor their number, who do you think John Q. Public will be upset with? It probably won't be Expedia.

Yup, if only that meant something, eh? Sadly, that quaint notion was something you could only count on at a little, independent hotel -- like mine -- until today. Now, we're going to be just like everyone else. It pains me to write that.

I'm reminded of the poor Wisconsin fans who arrived late at the Heartland Hotel in Iowa City on an Iowa Hawkeye game day -- and discovered that the bastards had overbooked, and that their Expedia reservation didn't mean dick.

We were able to snag them as repeat customers -- they stayed with us every other year for 6 years -- because they knew that we would never do that sort of thing. Now, here I am, all these years later, being driven down to that level of business "ethics", because booking agents won't guarantee the reservations they accept, and over-booking and walking people is our only defense.

It is to weep.

 

[N801BH]

I'm not sure I understand the question -- but Expedia will not supply us with a customer phone number. They do this so we cannot call the customer and offer them a better deal than Expedia is offering, thus saving ourselves the 15% commission that Expedia charges.

Thus, when the guy who booked four rooms with us didn't show up, we had no way to contact him.

The bottom line is that you have no guaranteed reservation with Expedia when you stay...anywhere. Up until now, we have treated an Expedia reservation exactly the same as a real, "guaranteed" reservation. That ended today, when Expedia refused to honor their customers's payment, and stiffed us for four reservations that they accepted.

From now on, we will treat Expedia reservations exactly the way the big chain hotels have done for years -- which is to say, as a "suggestion of a promise and a hope that you might show up". This means that from your end, you have a "suggestion of a promise and a hope that you might have a room when you get there" when you book with Expedia.

It's a double-edged sword that cuts both ways, and it's the way the industry works, sadly.

First let me say I feel your pain in having to 'downgrade' your business concept to fit into the hotel overbooking model...

Now, to clarify my question... Suppose Cap't Jack books a room through Expedia, has his card billed for the room and shows up to stay the night bearing a email from them with that magical confirmation number....

1- Does that number buy him pecking order over all the other guests?

2- Did the transaction from Expedia on the 4 lost rooms have a confirmation number attached to that reservation ?


TIA.

Ben.

 

[Doggtyred]

AND THE END RESULT OF ALL OF THIS IS:

We spoke with Heartland (the company who does our credit card processing), and they strongly advised us AGAINST going to arbitration -- even though we have a printout from Expedia showing that the guest booked the room.

As was mentioned several pages back, by someone whose husband works for Visa, if we don't have the credit card swiped in-person, we don't have a leg to stand on, and it matters not what paperwork we have. We will lose, and we would be fined $2,000 ($500 per reservation) for the pleasure.

So, here's what immediately changes in our future operations. Expedia reservations obviously mean nothing -- so if you use that service, understand that you are using them at your own risk.

I will regard reservations received through Expedia as meaningless pieces of paper, and if your reservation smells funny to me in any way, and someone walks in with real money -- or a credit card that I can swipe -- and you are not present, I will take their money.

In other words, you have no reservation at all if you use Expedia on a sell-out weekend here -- which is basically from Memorial Day to Labor Day.

Got a problem, take it up with Expedia. I will not lose one of these again.

It's things like this... This response right here... That cause people to give you grief. It's not us. It's YOU.

This is a childish over-reaction and will cause you even more grief in the future, especially when someone you walk publicly castigates you on your no-overbooking pledge.

Either accept the occasional bad that comes with the business (like this, or the pilot dude who cancelled his booking and used the courtesy car anyways)...... Or NOT use expedia altogether. Or go back to delivering papers.

Screwing over 18% of your potential customers to punish ONE douchebag is not how you run a business.

When I was helping a friend build his plane, with a rotary conversion, I had to go through so many hoops to buy one vendors product - a weldable injector boss - that I searched everywhere for a comparable product... He wouldn't use paypal cause they screwed him once. Didnt use MC/Visa for the same reason. No UPS. No FedEx. Ended up having to send an international money order from the USPS to his place in Canada, and accept delivery from DHL. it's almost like he didn't really WANT to sell or deliver his product.

Are you ready for a $#!tstorm in your lobby when half your rooms are booked through expedia for memorial day weekend and you walk them ALL because someone(s) else shows up before they do with cash in hand?

Are you really going to be THAT GUY and ruin several people's holidays, lose their repeat business? And that of their friends and family. Living near Houston I've got quite a few friends who vacation in Port A, and have tossed your places name out to them to book at if the beach house got too crowded. Im not sure I should do that anymore if you plan on accepting, then not honoring, their electronic booking. And that's coming from someone who's never been walked.. ever.. from places ranging from a no-tell motel to a 5 star resort.

Edit: no mention of this "policy change" on your hotel's webpage or facebook page.. yet. Ambushing your customers isn't a good policy.

 

[woodstock]

It kind of reminds me of that old joke about the dumbkopfs who went to a drive-in movie theater and hated the movie so much they slashed the seats.

It's things like this... This response right here... That cause people to give you grief. It's not us. It's YOU.

This is a childish over-reaction and will cause you even more grief in the future, especially when someone you walk publicly castigates you on your no-overbooking pledge.

Either accept the occasional bad that comes with the business (like this, or the pilot dude who cancelled his booking and used the courtesy car anyways)...... Or NOT use expedia altogether. Or go back to delivering papers.

Screwing over 18% of your potential customers to punish ONE douchebag is not how you run a business.

When I was helping a friend build his plane, with a rotary conversion, I had to go through so many hoops to buy one vendors product - a weldable injector boss - that I searched everywhere for a comparable product... He wouldn't use paypal cause they screwed him once. Didnt use MC/Visa for the same reason. No UPS. No FedEx. Ended up having to send an international money order from the USPS to his place in Canada, and accept delivery from DHL. it's almost like he didn't really WANT to sell or deliver his product.

Are you ready for a $#!tstorm in your lobby when half your rooms are booked through expedia for memorial day weekend and you walk them ALL because someone(s) else shows up before they do with cash in hand?

Are you really going to be THAT GUY and ruin several people's holidays, lose their repeat business? And that of their friends and family. Living near Houston I've got quite a few friends who vacation in Port A, and have tossed your places name out to them to book at if the beach house got too crowded. Im not sure I should do that anymore if you plan on accepting, then not honoring, their electronic booking. And that's coming from someone who's never been walked.. ever.. from places ranging from a no-tell motel to a 5 star resort.

Edit: no mention of this "policy change" on your hotel's webpage or facebook page.. yet. Ambushing your customers isn't a good policy.

 

[RotorAndWing]

SZ attracts people who like to argue incessantly and then they're also here outside of SZ.

I turned it on briefly, got sucked into the stupidity, and then turned it off again forever.

Excellent post.

 

[Doggtyred]

It kind of reminds me of that old joke about the dumbkopfs who went to a drive-in movie theater and hated the movie so much they slashed the seats.

I think Jay should go ahead and take these folks to arbitration... When the cardholder walks in with a copy of a police report for identity theft and evidence of other chargebacks related to the same fraudulent event, its going to be clear that Jay wasn't the only person who got screwed. Oh.. and fork over $2000 too...

I wonder how different he would have handled this had someone stolen a card number and phoned him or booked from his website using it..

Is a cardholder responsible for the fraudulent use of his card at an unsuspecting business?

Shaking my head at all of it..

 

[Anthony]

Where's the off button for SZ?

Go into your user CP and turn it off. It is easy to do. Nobody is forced to view SZ posts here at POA. Nobody is forced to open, nor participate in SZ posts either, but you are able to turn it off and not see anything about SZ.

There is a lot of garbage in SZ, but that doesn't mean there are not good discussions, good information, and well thought out arguments. In addition GA is very affected by politics, and government policy. Its a place to discuss these issues also.

Again, nobody is forcing anyone to view, or participate in SZ. To ridicule people that do participate, or its existence is a bit disingenuous.

 

[weilke]

Is a cardholder responsible for the fraudulent use of his card at an unsuspecting business?

Shaking my head at all of it..

I think Jay wants expedia, his reservation intermediary or the credit card company to pick up the bill.

There is a risk that comes with doing 'no card present' transactions. The CC companies charge a premium for the increased risk of fraud that comes with it. If you as a business are not willing to bear that risk, dont take credit cards over the phone or printed on a reservation. If you do, you'll have to eat the occasional un-appealable reversal.

Just change your reservation policy and publish it through expedia that you dont accept credit cards. Any reservation has to be pre-paid with a cheque 1 week in advance. That'll teach them.....

 

[Anthony]

Disagree. Expedia is useful to me, and they provide us with a fair amount of business. They are the ones who have decided that their reservations aren't guaranteed -- not me.

We will continue to use them.

I forget who said it, and don't have the time to read the entire thread. If you are going to use Expedia, honor the reservations. If you are not going to honor the reservations, don't use Expedia. Run the numbers, and see if the benefit of using Expedia outways the loss in revenue due to no shows, and not having an in person CC number. It is an easy economic decision. Take the emotion out of it, and look at the numbers.

 

[Rndmtrvlr]

Go into your user CP and turn it off. It is easy to do. Nobody is forced to view SZ posts here at POA. Nobody is forced to open, nor participate in SZ posts either, but you are able to turn it off and not see anything about SZ.

There is a lot of garbage in SZ, but that doesn't mean there are not good discussions, good information, and well thought out arguments. In addition GA is very affected by politics, and government policy. Its a place to discuss these issues also.

Again, nobody is forcing anyone to view, or participate in SZ. To ridicule people that do participate, or its existence is a bit disingenuous.

Thanks for the info. Really. You're right that no one is forced to participate or read posts. My problems are that 1) it was different than I expected. 2) Once joined, it shows up on a variety of forum reader apps (tapatalk, etc) in the "latest posts" section and is just annoying.

But now I know how to turn it off. So, again, thanks.

 

[Anthony]

But now I know how to turn it off. So, again, thanks.

Anytime Bro!

 

[wsuffa]

I wonder how different he would have handled this had someone stolen a card number and phoned him or booked from his website using it..

Is a cardholder responsible for the fraudulent use of his card at an unsuspecting business?

Shaking my head at all of it..

The problem is that the rules are much different between a "card present" and a "card not present" transaction. For a card-present transaction (that is, the person using the card physically presents it), there is generally lower liability to the merchant if the merchant does the right "stuff" (authentication, etc). While most merchant-services agreements specify that the merchant shall not ask for ID, many still do to further lower the chance of fraud (and for the hotel business, many cities require - by law - that the hotel see your ID, which makes YOU ripe for identity theft.

The last two times I had identity stolen were where the hotels copied my DL and crooked front desk staff passed the info to friends that set up a couple of accounts and ran up $20,000+ of charges to my AmEx. Those were 4 and 5 star hotels, by the way.)

For a "card not present" transaction - such as an internet or phone purchase - the merchant bears a much higher risk of liability, and the card companies provide much less protection. The use of the CVV2 codes are supposed to reduce the risk by ensuring that you have the card present.

Part of the reason the banks in the US have not moved to chip & pin that's commonly used elsewhere is that they push some liability to the merchants, meaning that the return they'd get from the investment is not as strong as it could be.

 

[Cap'n Jack]

The point you're missing is that your Expedia reservation has never been more sacred at any chain motel than any other kind of reservation. If they overbook by 15% -- and we know they do -- and everyone shows up, it doesn't matter who you booked with -- if you're the last person to show up, you do not have a reservation.

We have always done things differently, by refusing to overbook, and by honoring an Expedia reservation as if it were pre-paid, and in the bank. That ended today -- we will now treat an Expedia reservation EXACTLY the way all of the big chain motels do.



Yup, if only that meant something, eh? Sadly, that quaint notion was something you could only count on at a little, independent hotel -- like mine -- until today. Now, we're going to be just like everyone else. It pains me to write that.

I'm reminded of the poor Wisconsin fans who arrived late at the Heartland Hotel in Iowa City on an Iowa Hawkeye game day -- and discovered that the bastards had overbooked, and that their Expedia reservation didn't mean dick.

We were able to snag them as repeat customers -- they stayed with us every other year for 6 years -- because they knew that we would never do that sort of thing. Now, here I am, all these years later, being driven down to that level of business "ethics", because booking agents won't guarantee the reservations they accept, and over-booking and walking people is our only defense.

It is to weep.

Jay- it's your business to run or not. As a customer I really don't care about your problems, any more than my customers care about my problems (As a PoA member, I do care, and that's why I've responded to you). I do care about getting a room when I have a piece of paper with a confirmation number for your hotel.

One way or another, you're going to get burned- you'll lose money through no-shows, or you'll overbook, and get a customer sufficiently annoyed they'll complain to everyone and post everywhere, forcing you to do "damage control". It's your choice- you do the math and see what works best for you. Don't forget the value of Goodwill in your calculations.

 

[Amelia]

You know, all this anger and bitterness just doesn't fit with the little fantasy I'd built up of a wonderful family-run, one-of-a-kind hotel full of warm hospitality, having a good time with a small business.

No, I didn't imagine that running a hotel would be all sunshine and roses all the time, but professionalism in every field expects that the challenging stuff will be dealt with quietly, you don't bad-mouth the competition, you don't complain to your potential guests, you HONOR your commitments- and those made in your behalf.

I'm truly sorry you got shafted, Jay, and understand your anger. But I confess: I wish the bitterness weren't overflowing onto this forum, because WE are your potential customers.

Remember, this is discretionary spending-- nobody HAS to come to Mustang Island OR stay at Amelia's Landing. There are alternative destinations, alternative hotels there, and your hotel, to be successful, must seem like more fun, as well as a better value, than those alternatives.

Sounds as if you have a good start, fine ideas, a good location, and much on which to build. So, I'm hoping you put this behind you, and move on without changing the philosophy and feeling of friendly, honorable welcome that makes your place stand out.

.

 

[DaleB]

Could I suggest a middle ground? How about this -- Expedia reservations are not guaranteed for late arrival, unless you call ahead. Make sure this is clearly stated on the Expedia listing. That way if you have a no-show at, say, 6 PM, you either have a phone number and a person you are pretty sure will show up, OR you can rent the room to someone else with a clear conscience.

Treating Expedia reservations as non-reservations is (IMHO) a bad policy; it's putting your customers in the middle of a fight between you and Expedia that they had no part in starting. Either take their reservations, or don't. But given the lack of information they supply you with, putting an additional condition or two on reservations made through their web site is not unreasonable.

 

[Rndmtrvlr]

Living near Houston I've got quite a few friends who vacation in Port A, and have tossed your places name out to them to book at if the beach house got too crowded. Im not sure I should do that anymore if you plan on accepting, then not honoring, their electronic booking. And that's coming from someone who's never been walked.. ever.. from places ranging from a no-tell motel to a 5 star resort.

Edit: no mention of this "policy change" on your hotel's webpage or facebook page.. yet. Ambushing your customers isn't a good policy.

Living in Dallas, I too have several friends who vacation down there and I just shoot them Jay's website, or tell them to call him directly. Why would they use Expedia? They already know the area and you're recommending a particular hotel. They can get a better deal direct than by using an aggregator.

And if someone IS using Expedia, why would it matter what his website or Facebook page says? They've likely never seen them (assuming the reasons for using Expedia that people have mentioned in this thread are valid).

The only people he risks alienating are "casual" reservations through Expedia and he seems to have decided that the risk is worth it. I don't have as much faith as you guys in the power of "social media" to tank his business. Just like the question of "walks," the issue of whether people decide against a hotel based on a couple of bad reviews is a statistical question and we have a VERY small and skewed sample on this board. We could go tit for tat all day with "I've been walked/I've NEVER been walked" and "I always read and follow reviews/Reviews don't mean a thing" all day and it wouldn't have anything to do with reality.

If I were Jay I'd be doing the same thing and recognize that some small proportion of that 18% of my business (10% of that would be less than 2% of my overall business and given that this appears to be the first time this has happened through Expedia I'd say 10% of Expedia reservations is a high estimate) is gonna be a problem.

Truth is, Jay is just ranting (as we are all wont to do) about a particular issue in his business that torques him. I say, "Jay I feel your pain, buddy. I don't have the first clue how to solve your problem, but when I'm down there (after having called you personally to give you my credit card number and get you best price) I'll buy you a beer and we can commiserate over it."

 

[Henning]

Wow. That's the best advice I've seen on PoA, aviation related or otherwise (well, except for all the relationship advice that Kimberly was getting for a while).

Where's the off button for SZ?

It's at the tip of your finger every second of every day... you just have to not go there. You can have it easily blocked, though I never understood that.

 

[Henning]

The reality is you can't have 2 policies. If you don't want to accept Expedia's terms of doing business, then don't do business with Expedia. Punishing the consumer for the acts of the expediter is as wrong as the expediter screwing you. If you don't give full value to Expedia customers then you are going to cause yourself damage. If you are going to overbook to deal with the issue then you need to have arrangements made for the overflow. You really need another hotel, this one on the beach so you can cross support them WRT overbooking.

 

[steingar]

Jay, I hope I get to visit your hotel some day. It is a long way, but the Island sounds cool. If there is a good upshot from all of this, it's that I'll never use Expedia, I don't like the way they do business.

However, I honestly believe you're not thinking with your head on this. You're thinking with another part of your anatomy, and it might be the one south of your naval. An occasional no-show sounds like a very small price to pay for close to a fifth of your business. What did those four rooms cost you? What have you earned from Expedia? I said it before, this is business. You are putting people up in an asset, not your house. That you treat your guests like they were in your house is to your credit, and probably underlies a lot of your success. But you have to make your decisions based on the asset.

 

[Palmpilot]

The reality is you can't have 2 policies. If you don't want to accept Expedia's terms of doing business, then don't do business with Expedia. Punishing the consumer for the acts of the expediter is as wrong as the expediter screwing you. If you don't give full value to Expedia customers then you are going to cause yourself damage. If you are going to overbook to deal with the issue then you need to have arrangements made for the overflow. You really need another hotel, this one on the beach so you can cross support them WRT overbooking.

What he's really taking about is one policy: If he receives a guarantee that the rooms are paid for, then the rooms will be held. If Expedia is unwilling to provide that guarantee, that's their choice. I don't see why he should have to provide a unilateral guarantee.

It's great that Jay has exceeded the standard that others have followed, but I don't see why people are acting like he has an obligation to continue doing so.

I do agree with David, though, that the contracts between Jay, Expedia, and their intermediaries need to be carefully read before implementing the change.

 

[Palmpilot]

...An occasional no-show sounds like a very small price to pay for close to a fifth of your business. What did those four rooms cost you? What have you earned from Expedia? I said it before, this is business. You are putting people up in an asset, not your house. That you treat your guests like they were in your house is to your credit, and probably underlies a lot of your success. But you have to make your decisions based on the asset.

Good analysis.

 

[Obi Heed Kenobi]

Again, all I am doing is changing my policy from what I have done for years, to what the chain motels have done for years. In other words, I am no longer exceeding the industry standard WRT Expedia -- I am matching it.

The fact that I find this distasteful, and that I find the act of overbooking and walking people unethical, is really a personal problem for me. It's the way the industry works, and Expedia obviously EXPECTS us to behave in this way, regarding their customers, or they would have behaved differently when four of their reservations turned out to be bogus. I mean, really, if they wanted us to treat their reservations like guaranteed reservations, they themselves would have treated them like guaranteed reservations.

But they didn't. My loss, and they have washed their hands of responsibility for the reservations they accepted. Live and learn.

It's taken over 9 years in this industry, but I finally, fully understand why the chains do business the way they do with regard to their customers. They are behaving in the only way that makes economic sense.

Again, I'd urge you to read your contracts/agreements. You don't want to put yourself in a position where you can be accused of things like breach of contract, fraud, deceptive business practices, etc. - or where Expedia loses face and in turn points the finger at you.

You just don't want that. These things come with attorney fees, loser pays, liquidated damages, and really really bad PR.

I'm sure that your arrangements with Expedia have some convenient way out. You really might want to consider cancelling the deal, especially if you're required to do things that you don't think are justified by what you get out of the deal (i.e., guaranteed rooms, etc.).

 

[Henning]

What he's really taking about is one policy: If he receives a guarantee that the rooms are paid for, then the rooms will be held. If Expedia is unwilling to provide that guarantee, that's their choice. I don't see why he should have to provide a unilateral guarantee.

It's great that Jay has exceeded the standard that others have followed, but I don't see why people are acting like he has an obligation to continue doing so.

I do agree with David, though, that the contracts between Jay, Expedia, and their intermediaries need to be carefully read before implementing the change.

He doesn't, but if he doesn't want to provide it to the customer then he should not do business with Expedia. It's screwing Peter to get back at Paul and it's bad business. You either have ethics or not. There is no real slippery slope.

 

[Steve Foley]

Jay,

Back in the 90s, I worked for a consumer products manufacturer. We sold to Wal-Mart, K-Mart, Target, Bradlees, Caldor, and a handful of others. We had a process called Over-billing, where we would add a certain amount to each invoice in anticipation of chargebacks.

All retailers issue chargebacks. K-mart was the worst that we dealt with. They would 'fine' us $50 if the goods arrived on a pallet with a scuff mark on it. $50 if a barcode label was missing from a box, $50 if their computer system didn't know what the barcode was, $50 if we over-shipped. $50 if we under-shipped.

We once shipped them a trailer loaded with 1000 cartons without barcode labels on them. They kept the product ($14/box) but charged us back $50,000 for missing barcode labels.

We would keep track of the overbilling, and when they exceeded our balance with chargebacks, we would increase the price to account for it. If they refused the price increase (like Sears did) we would stop selling to them.

In reality, this affects nothing, but if you've made an adjustment in the Expedia pricing, you simply keep track of how much you've accrued because you haven't been screwed.

It's only a glass half-full/empty analysis, but it may make you feel better about doing business with Expedia.

 

[Steve Foley]

Yes, it's a PIA when someone loses a key -- but it's my PIA to bear, not the guest's.

Jay, my uncle, a locksmith, recently passed away, and my aunt is looking to get rid of his locksmith tools. You want a key-cutting machine?

 

[Rndmtrvlr]

He doesn't, but if he doesn't want to provide it to the customer then he should not do business with Expedia. It's screwing Peter to get back at Paul and it's bad business. You either have ethics or not. There is no real slippery slope.

Expedia says on their website that except for the special negotiated prices (for which they charge your card up front and then pay the hotel) all reservations are subject to the terms and conditions of the hotel or other travel partner. There is nothing "unethical" in determining your policy with regard to Expedia reservations and then sticking to it.

 

[Jay Honeck]

First let me say I feel your pain in having to 'downgrade' your business concept to fit into the hotel overbooking model...

Now, to clarify my question... Suppose Cap't Jack books a room through Expedia, has his card billed for the room and shows up to stay the night bearing a email from them with that magical confirmation number....

1- Does that number buy him pecking order over all the other guests?

2- Did the transaction from Expedia on the 4 lost rooms have a confirmation number attached to that reservation ?


TIA.

Ben.

Okay, thanks for the clarification. THIS IS A HUGE ISSUE -- ALL PLEASE READ THIS!

The thing y'all must understand (and it's something I should have pointed out earlier) is that there are TWO TYPES of Expedia reservations. (Just to make this even more sickeningly complex!)

Type 1 is like we get -- just a printout with a name, and a cc number. We pay 15% to Expedia for those -- AND WE COLLECT THE MONEY AT CHECK IN.

Type 2 is prepaid to Expedia. They do the collection from the customer up front, upon making the reservation. We do not solicit or accept reservations of that type from Expedia -- or any other booking engine. (The last thing I want is to be waiting for a check from Expedia!)

So....I think I now understand the angry response to some of my statements! Some of you guys were thinking I was not going to fully honor the "Type 2" reservations. Obviously, that would have been a "bad thing", and I now understand the confusion.

Rest assured -- if you pre-pay for a reservation, no matter what the source, you will never be "walked" here -- ever. Also rest assured, we do not charge for reservations up-front, so if any booking engine you use tells you that we do, they are lying.

(Yes, we've had people claim that they were told by on-line agents -- who guests sometimes call -- that they were being charged up-front for a reservation with us. Like I say, on-line booking companies are as loosey-goosey as it gets.)

 

[tonycondon]

i always figured that when i submitted my credit card number for a reservation that i was pre-paying and if i didn't show up i would be charged.

 

[Jay Honeck]

I think Jay should go ahead and take these folks to arbitration... When the cardholder walks in with a copy of a police report for identity theft and evidence of other chargebacks related to the same fraudulent event, its going to be clear that Jay wasn't the only person who got screwed. Oh.. and fork over $2000 too...

I wonder how different he would have handled this had someone stolen a card number and phoned him or booked from his website using it..

Is a cardholder responsible for the fraudulent use of his card at an unsuspecting business?

Shaking my head at all of it..

Who said anything about the CARD HOLDER being responsible?

If I had accepted the card, I would eat the loss. Sadly, Expedia accepted it -- and made ME eat it. That's the issue, in a nutshell.

 

[Everskyward]

i always figured that when i submitted my credit card number for a reservation that i was pre-paying and if i didn't show up i would be charged.

So did I. What is the point of making a "reservation" if it's not really reserved?

I have never used Expedia and after reading this thread I never will.

 

[Jay Honeck]

You know, all this anger and bitterness just doesn't fit with the little fantasy I'd built up of a wonderful family-run, one-of-a-kind hotel full of warm hospitality, having a good time with a small business.

No, I didn't imagine that running a hotel would be all sunshine and roses all the time, but professionalism in every field expects that the challenging stuff will be dealt with quietly, you don't bad-mouth the competition, you don't complain to your potential guests, you HONOR your commitments- and those made in your behalf.

I'm truly sorry you got shafted, Jay, and understand your anger. But I confess: I wish the bitterness weren't overflowing onto this forum, because WE are your potential customers.

Remember, this is discretionary spending-- nobody HAS to come to Mustang Island OR stay at Amelia's Landing. There are alternative destinations, alternative hotels there, and your hotel, to be successful, must seem like more fun, as well as a better value, than those alternatives.

Sounds as if you have a good start, fine ideas, a good location, and much on which to build. So, I'm hoping you put this behind you, and move on without changing the philosophy and feeling of friendly, honorable welcome that makes your place stand out.

.

Yeah, I'm pretty much sorry I asked for advice here. Sometimes it's best to maintain the illusion that all is happiness and delight in the bidness world.

What's sad is that all I'm doing is changing our policy to match what the chains have done for years -- and everyone is upset. I suppose it's a good thing that I've brought this to light, as perhaps more people will point their anger where it rightly belongs: At an electronic payment and/or booking system that screws the small business owner NO MATTER WHAT.

Here's the bottom line, as it stands in my industry today:

1. If you book with me, and we don't physically swipe your credit card at check in, you can stay in my hotel for weeks, and the credit card company will reverse the charge ON YOUR WORD -- and we are powerless to fight. I could produce a picture of you in the lobby, and it wouldn't matter.

2. If you book with me, and we DO physically swipe your credit card at check in, you can stay in my hotel for weeks, and the credit card company will reverse the charge ON YOUR WORD -- and we are forced to prove that you were here. Thankfully, this is rare -- and most of the time we win; sometimes there is a slip up in paperwork, and we lose.

3. If you book with Expedia, (or any of the dozens of on-line booking engines) and they take responsibility for accepting your credit card, and you don't show up -- the credit card company will reverse the charge ON YOUR WORD - and we are powerless to fight.

It's a system that places all the loss on the end user -- which is why the end users (the hotels) fight back by over-booking.