Advice, please -- Whom Shall We Sue? (Non-Av)

[woodstock]

Wouldn't your key be accessible to anyone in the hotel then?

Not sure how that worked actually.. good point. Maybe it was a unique key for that particular slot that also worked on the door? As long as you don't have obstructions on the key itself that conflict with the front door, it works. Unless I am misremembering the front door part and that smaller key was just to let you drop off the big one. It was 7 yrs ago.

edit: I googled it and came across two descriptions for that hotel. One was on tripadvisor... and one was, um, mine. However I wrote it in 2005 (barely one year later) and it described it the same way so I remembered it correctly. The other one on TA described it the same way I did.

I also emailed the hotel where I stayed. Now I am curious - at the time it made perfect sense, so I am not describing it well enough.

 

[wsuffa]

I am not currently carry a passport at all...........

It is in the room safe!

I carry both a passport and passport card. The passport stays in the hotel safe (some hotels want to retain it at the front desk...) and the passport card goes with me. Both are legal ID documents issued by the US Government - the only thing the PP Card can't be used for is air travel (it doesn't meet the Intl standards for air travel and can't be used with a visa or stamp).

PP Card is easier to carry around.

I also use the PP Card for the TSA. It does NOT have your address on it (so no risk of them easily knowing where you live), and it takes away their chance to look through your passport and interrogate you about places you've been (TSA gave me a hard time at one point because I had an Egypt visa...).

 

[wsuffa]

Wouldn't your key be accessible to anyone in the hotel then?

The one or two places I've stayed with this system have the keys cut to operate 2 different locks (front door and room key cabinet). Same is true of hotels where you take the key with you and it opens both the front door and your room.

Pretty simple, and certainly within the capability of most commercial lock systems.

 

[ScottM]

I carry both a passport and passport card. The passport stays in the hotel safe (some hotels want to retain it at the front desk...) and the passport card goes with me. Both are legal ID documents issued by the US Government - the only thing the PP Card can't be used for is air travel (it doesn't meet the Intl standards for air travel and can't be used with a visa or stamp).

PP Card is easier to carry around.

I also use the PP Card for the TSA. It does NOT have your address on it (so no risk of them easily knowing where you live), and it takes away their chance to look through your passport and interrogate you about places you've been (TSA gave me a hard time at one point because I had an Egypt visa...).

I am going to get the card on the next renewal. Which now a days needs to be 6 month before you passport expires as many countries now want 6 month validity to visit. I have also never had a hotel ask to retain the passport. I would completely balk at that and would never allow it at all.

 

[Palmpilot]

I am going to get the card on the next renewal. Which now a days needs to be 6 month before you passport expires as many countries now want 6 month validity to visit...

Is there a way to find out in advance which countries require your passport to be valid for how long?

I guess I'd better get mine renewed, since I really can't predict where I might want to go six months from now.

 

[ScottM]

Is there a way to find out in advance which countries require your passport to be valid for how long?

I guess I'd better get mine renewed, since I really can't predict where I might want to go six months from now.

http://travel.state.gov/travel/travel_1744.html

 

[Jay Honeck]

I missed the fact that the card was reported as stolen. That's a whole different situation than I thought you were dealing with. Given that, it sounds like you would have had the same loss even if Expedia had not been involved.

Expedia accepted the credit card, not me. Therefore, Expedia should have borne the loss -- not us.

 

[weilke]

Expedia accepted the credit card, not me. Therefore, Expedia should have borne the loss -- not us.

What does your contract with expedia or genares say on that issue ?

 

[Jay Honeck]

What does your contract with expedia or genares say on that issue ?

Nothing.

As previously stated, the on-line booking industry is a loosey-goosey business. They don't even have standardized billing procedures, let alone contracts. Everything is just a few years old, and it's really the wild, wild west when it comes to these companies.

 

[weilke]

Nothing.

So why exactly do you think they are obliged to cover your risk ?

They hand off a name and a credit card number off to you in order for you to take a reservation based on your hotel specific policy. It seems to me that after you ran an authorization on the card, you were satisifed that it was good to hold the reservation. Unless your reservation intermediary made any assurances to you that they would cover bad reservations, I can't see why they would be liable for something that happened between you and a bad customer (arguably, either your credit card processor or the credit card issuer should be liable for identity fraud or credit card theft, but we know that they only collect their fees for their shareholders benefit and not to cover any kind of risk).

 

[denverpilot]

Jay, what's stopping you from running your own pre-approval of the card number provided by Expedia? Or is the only thing they're sending you is a name? If the latter, I wouldn't do business with them. They can make up names all day long.

 

[Palmpilot]

Expedia accepted the credit card, not me. Therefore, Expedia should have borne the loss -- not us.

Has Expedia ever promised to indemnify you against customers using stolen credit cards?

If the customer had used a stolen credit card to book the rooms with you directly, wouldn't you still be stuck for the price of the rooms? If so, I don't see how Expedia's involvement in this contributed in any way to your financial loss.

 

[dmspilot]

Everything is just a few years old, and it's really the wild, wild west when it comes to these companies.

Really? It's 2011...these sites have been around since the 90s. Just sayin.

 

[Palmpilot]

As previously stated, the on-line booking industry is a loosey-goosey business. They don't even have standardized billing procedures, let alone contracts. Everything is just a few years old, and it's really the wild, wild west when it comes to these companies.

What about procedures in the credit card industry? Do they have no standardized procedure for dealing with amounts charged on stolen credit cards?

 

[ScottM]

Really? It's 2011...these sites have been around since the 90s. Just sayin.

Yep, that!

Expedia was founded in 1996 and was started by Microsoft and then spun off as its own business in 1999. Online travel booking has been around for 15 years. Not all that new anymore.

FYI

In 2008, Expedia was named to the most admired Internet companies in the United States list, released by Fortune. Expedia ranked third, after IAC and Google, and was followed by Amazon.com at fourth place.[20]



National Travel, an affiliate of American Express Travel, announced it has added Expedia Vacations to its suite of travel vendors.


Expedia, Inc. Ranks High on Fortune Most Admired List — For 2008, Expedia is ranked #3 in the Internet Service/Retailing industry, and is included in the list of most-admired companies in the state of Washington.[20]


Expedia, Inc. Named One of “America’s Best Managed Companies” by Forbes — Forbes’ list of the 400 best managed, public American companies with $1 billion or more in revenues includes Expedia for the first time.[21]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Expedia,_Inc.#cite_note-25

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Expedia,_Inc.#cite_note-25
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Expedia,_Inc.

 

[TMetzinger]

So why exactly do you think they are obliged to cover your risk ?

They hand off a name and a credit card number off to you in order for you to take a reservation based on your hotel specific policy. It seems to me that after you ran an authorization on the card, you were satisifed that it was good to hold the reservation. Unless your reservation intermediary made any assurances to you that they would cover bad reservations, I can't see why they would be liable for something that happened between you and a bad customer (arguably, either your credit card processor or the credit card issuer should be liable for identity fraud or credit card theft, but we know that they only collect their fees for their shareholders benefit and not to cover any kind of risk).

If they hand the card to you and you charge it, then YOU are processing/accepting it. If they ran the charge, and then gave you your "piece" of it, then THEY are processing/accepting it.

 

[Henning]

I carry both a passport and passport card. The passport stays in the hotel safe (some hotels want to retain it at the front desk...) and the passport card goes with me. Both are legal ID documents issued by the US Government - the only thing the PP Card can't be used for is air travel (it doesn't meet the Intl standards for air travel and can't be used with a visa or stamp).

PP Card is easier to carry around.

I also use the PP Card for the TSA. It does NOT have your address on it (so no risk of them easily knowing where you live), and it takes away their chance to look through your passport and interrogate you about places you've been (TSA gave me a hard time at one point because I had an Egypt visa...).

Since your passport card doesn't have a stamp on it, it may not be acceptable in those countries that require you to have your passport at all times. Typically it just takes a $5 bill to take care of the situation, but make them write you a note to deflect other LEOs from collecting their "fine" that night as well.

 

[weilke]

If they hand the card to you and you charge it, then YOU are processing/accepting it. If they ran the charge, and then gave you your "piece" of it, then THEY are processing/accepting it.

It was my understanding that Jay doesn't accept the type of pre-paid reservations where expedia or hotels.com collect the money up front.

The type of reservation he does accept is 'they just send me a name and a cc-number and I have to give them 15%'

The distribution of the risk between travel agency, the intermediaries and the vendor may well be different between the two.

Companies as big as expedia are run by lawyers. All this is spelled out in the network of contracts between Jay, his cc-processor, expedia and gena-res.Somewhere when Jay signed up, he clicked on a 'I accept the conditions of use' checkmark and this kind of stuff was covered in the lower part of the page, you know the part you have to scroll down to see .

 

[Gerhardt]

Man, this thread really took off. And I learned a few things along the way. But I am disappointed in some of the hostility on the thread.

I like Jay's stance against over-booking. I've shown up at hotels a few times over the years only to be told that my room is not available. Sometimes with no explanation, other times because I've arrived late at night and they assumed I was a no-show.

I've got no problem with chain hotels and have great stays most of the time. But they can be bureaucratic. Like another pilot said, on more than one occasion I've had to pull my laptop out and make an online reservation while at the hotel front desk just to get the online booking rate. If I'm not in a hurry it's kind of amusing to both me and the desk clerk.

 

[Jay Honeck]

Jay, what's stopping you from running your own pre-approval of the card number provided by Expedia? Or is the only thing they're sending you is a name? If the latter, I wouldn't do business with them. They can make up names all day long.

We did pre-approve the card, which (we thought) guaranteed their reservation.

We were wrong.

 

[Jay Honeck]

What about procedures in the credit card industry? Do they have no standardized procedure for dealing with amounts charged on stolen credit cards?

Yeah, their procedure is to stick it to the vendor, no matter what.

We did everything by the book. We accepted a reservation in writing from a known and respected source -- Expedia. They accepted the credit card as valid. We preauthorized the credit card for the amount of the stay -- and it went through just fine.

And we lost the money when the credit card company charged us back. Expedia, as the entity that accepted the reservation as valid, bore the responsibility for the validity of the reservation -- but dumped the loss on us.

And, of course, the only evidence we have that the card was "stolen" is from the card-holder himself -- who may just be trying to weasel out of reservations he made for another person.

It's a loosey-goosey system, to be sure. Live and learn.

 

[Jay Honeck]

Has Expedia ever promised to indemnify you against customers using stolen credit cards?

If the customer had used a stolen credit card to book the rooms with you directly, wouldn't you still be stuck for the price of the rooms? If so, I don't see how Expedia's involvement in this contributed in any way to your financial loss.

Why should the vendor bear the cost of a stolen credit card with an on-line booking? We didn't accept the card -- the intermediary (in this case, Expedia) did.

It's funny -- the credit card companies make a big deal of offering "protection" to card-holders against bogus charges if their card is ever stolen. Sadly, they accomplish this lofty goal simply by screwing the vendors who accept the card in good faith.

Everyone pays for this -- except (of course!) the credit card companies who offered the "protection".

 

[Jay Honeck]

Really? It's 2011...these sites have been around since the 90s. Just sayin.

In 2002, when we bought our first hotel, almost no one booked on-line. The on-line companies may have been around, but they were tiny, nearly insignificant in the overall scheme of the lodging industry.

Today, just 9 years later, they dominate it. It's been a huge sea change in the lodging industry, and the systems that worked in 2002 haven't coped well with this rapid expansion.

 

[Jay Honeck]

If they hand the card to you and you charge it, then YOU are processing/accepting it. If they ran the charge, and then gave you your "piece" of it, then THEY are processing/accepting it.

We preauthorized the credit card, and it was accepted. There is literally nothing else we can do to verify the validity of a credit card, in the absence of any cardholder information.

As previously stated, Expedia does not share customer information with us, for fear that we will underbid their price to "their" customer.

 

[Jay Honeck]

Another illustration of how loosey-goosey the industry is: Expedia just billed us (through a third-party) for on-line reservations they sent us in July.

It included a 15% booking fee for Mr. Victor Melee, times four nights' stay. This despite the fact that we've been in contact with them repeatedly about this reservation, and they know it was fraudulent.

It is up to us to make sure that we don't pay them for that bogus reservation. It was one line on a five-page bill. Luckily, Mary keeps a very good database...

 

[jesse]

We preauthorized the credit card, and it was accepted. There is literally nothing else we can do to verify the validity of a credit card, in the absence of any cardholder information.

As previously stated, Expedia does not share customer information with us, for fear that we will underbid their price to "their" customer.

I can't remember at this point - did the guest actually show up and use the room? If they did, you should have swiped at that point. If you're not swiping for credit card users -- start. You should get lower rates for a card present transaction.

 

[Jay Honeck]

I can't remember at this point - did the guest actually show up and use the room? If they did, you should have swiped at that point. If you're not swiping for credit card users -- start. You should get lower rates for a card present transaction.

Nope. We charged them as a no-show, for four separate rooms.

We always swipe the card at check-in.

 

[wanttaja]

Wow -- skeleton keys? From the INSIDE, to get OUT?

That is patently illegal.

Like I said, this was outside the US...Ireland, in fact. Several hotels on the trip had setups like this.

One place had the bedside lights controlled by a switch panel on the nightstand. One light didn't work, so I pulled out the nightstand to see if it happened to be unplugged. "Unwired" is more accurate...the back of the switch wells were wide open, and some of the wires were loose and dangling free.

Another thing several hotels had was key-activated room power. If you wanted the lights on, you had to insert your room key into a receptacle by the door. When you left, you'd remove the key, and all the lights would shut down. My wife and I always picked up two keys, so it wasn't an issue....

Ron Wanttaja

 

[Palmpilot]

Yeah, their procedure is to stick it to the vendor, no matter what.

Sounds like your beef is with the credit card industry.

We did everything by the book. We accepted a reservation in writing from a known and respected source -- Expedia. They accepted the credit card as valid. We preauthorized the credit card for the amount of the stay -- and it went through just fine.

Does Expedia have any better way to determine the validity of a card than you do? Did they not do something "by the book"?

Expedia, as the entity that accepted the reservation as valid, bore the responsibility for the validity of the reservation -- but dumped the loss on us.

I guess I would need to hear from a lawyer or a judge on whether Expedia's role makes them liable for a customer's use of a stolen credit card. Is your loss within the limit for small claims court in your state?

And, of course, the only evidence we have that the card was "stolen" is from the card-holder himself -- who may just be trying to weasel out of reservations he made for another person.

It's not necessary to know whether the card-holder was involved in order to dertermine that a crime was committed. We know for sure that the person who used that credit card number to make the reservation committed a crime, either by using a stolen credit card number, or by fraudulently reporting a credit card as stolen. Perhaps a call to the police or the FBI would be in order.

 

[Palmpilot]

Why should the vendor bear the cost of a stolen credit card with an on-line booking?

I'm not saying whether they should or shouldn't. I was just inquiring into what the standard practice is in the credit card industry.

We didn't accept the card -- the intermediary (in this case, Expedia) did.

Sounds to me like you both accepted the card.

It's funny -- the credit card companies make a big deal of offering "protection" to card-holders against bogus charges if their card is ever stolen. Sadly, they accomplish this lofty goal simply by screwing the vendors who accept the card in good faith.

Everyone pays for this -- except (of course!) the credit card companies who offered the "protection".

Would you support legislation to make the credit card companies pay for fraudulent use of their cards?

 

[TMetzinger]

Why should the vendor bear the cost of a stolen credit card with an on-line booking? We didn't accept the card -- the intermediary (in this case, Expedia) did.



Everyone pays for this -- except (of course!) the credit card companies who offered the "protection".

Yes, you did accept the card - you pre-authorized it.

You seem to be relying on Expedia to validate that the card number they passed to you was actually presented to them by the cardholder, and I bet that somewhere in the legal "duties" you have to each other they specifically disclaim that responsibility.

I don't see how this would be different than somebody calling you directly, claiming to be me, giving you my credit card number, and you charging it for the reservation. Then when I don't show, you bill the card, I see the bill, I claim fraud, and you're right where you are with this guy - the credit card company expects YOU to eat the loss.

Expedia is just the middleman, and they aren't doing the kind of validation that wins in arbitration - actually physically taking the card.

 

[Henning]

Yes, you did accept the card - you pre-authorized it.

You seem to be relying on Expedia to validate that the card number they passed to you was actually presented to them by the cardholder, and I bet that somewhere in the legal "duties" you have to each other they specifically disclaim that responsibility.

I don't see how this would be different than somebody calling you directly, claiming to be me, giving you my credit card number, and you charging it for the reservation. Then when I don't show, you bill the card, I see the bill, I claim fraud, and you're right where you are with this guy - the credit card company expects YOU to eat the loss.

Expedia is just the middleman, and they aren't doing the kind of validation that wins in arbitration - actually physically taking the card.

Right, but as a middle man they take a fee and part of what they offer for that fee is protection from exactly this....

 

[Maxmosbey]

Over the eleven pages of this thread I've lost track of a lot that is going on, but I am wondering if Jay's competition is messing with him. Just a thought.

 

[TMetzinger]

Right, but as a middle man they take a fee and part of what they offer for that fee is protection from exactly this....

I bet they don't claim to offer protection from fraud for their fee. If they do, Jay would have a claim against Expedia.

I bet all they offer is marketing visibility.

 

[wsuffa]

I am going to get the card on the next renewal. Which now a days needs to be 6 month before you passport expires as many countries now want 6 month validity to visit. I have also never had a hotel ask to retain the passport. I would completely balk at that and would never allow it at all.

You don't need to wait if you don't want to. The PP card carries its own expiration & a separate number. It is not tied to your regular passport in any way, and you can hold both simultaneously.

I likewise balked at the hotel that wanted to hold the passport (botique hotel in Italy, making it doubly concerning). They quickly relented, and I held on to passport.

Since your passport card doesn't have a stamp on it, it may not be acceptable in those countries that require you to have your passport at all times. Typically it just takes a $5 bill to take care of the situation, but make them write you a note to deflect other LEOs from collecting their "fine" that night as well.

Agree that it may or may not be satisfactory to certain authorities in certain countries (esp. those that want to see the stamp or validity, like customs.) But that's a low risk in most places - the bigger problem is that they may not have ever seen the PP card before.

 

[Cap'n Jack]

Right, but as a middle man they take a fee and part of what they offer for that fee is protection from exactly this....

I bet they don't claim to offer protection from fraud for their fee. If they do, Jay would have a claim against Expedia.

I bet all they offer is marketing visibility.

I'm guessing Tim is right, for Jay's use of Expedia where they only pass on a reservation request and the credit card number. Expedia provides a service of getting Jay's business visible.

Reading through the thread, there is another type of reservation from Expedia that Jay doesn't use, where Expedia charges the card. I'm suspecting that if the charge doesn't go through, there's no room. I've used Expedia in this fashion as a customer, and they charge as soon as you make the reservation; the hotel only takes your card number for any incidentals you might have as the room is already paid for. This is why I was wondering why Jay would cancel a reservation, since I already paid for the room. In this type of reservation, I think Expedia takes the risk.

 

[N801BH]

Another illustration of how loosey-goosey the industry is: Expedia just billed us (through a third-party) for on-line reservations they sent us in July.

It included a 15% booking fee for Mr. Victor Melee, times four nights' stay. This despite the fact that we've been in contact with them repeatedly about this reservation, and they know it was fraudulent.

It is up to us to make sure that we don't pay them for that bogus reservation. It was one line on a five-page bill. Luckily, Mary keeps a very good database...

Boy,, do you have them by the balls now....

Lets just review the whole scenerio...

1- Jay runs a hotel.

2- Expedia, a known third party booking agent sends him a client along with the persons CC info.
3- Jay runs the card to check the status of the card... it comes back good.
4- The person Expedia sent the CC and booking info to Jay does a 'no show'.
5- Jay bills the 'no show' for the rooms Expedia booked.
6- The third party claims a " stolen credit card"
7- Jay gets stiffed for the rooms and lost revenue.
8- Expedia send Jay a bill of 15% for that referral, even after Jay and Mary have protested the whole deal to Expedia.

I may be half crazy but it would seem to me Mr Melee and Expedia should be charged with fraud, collusion and a variaty of other crimes, including the RICO act as they appear to be teaming up on Jays business in an attempt to defraud him..... If Expedia passed on a "bad " credit card number to Jay, That action alone would constitute wire fraud and they should be held accountable.... Thanks to Mary and her sharp eye in seeing that Expedia is trying to get paid for a bogus reservation... IMHO... this stinks worse then a tuna sandwich left in a car in Texas in the summer for three weeks..

Ben.

 

[Palmpilot]

If Expedia passed on a "bad " credit card number to Jay, That action alone would constitute wire fraud and they should be held accountable....

How would Expedia know the card was bad when they passed on the number?

 

[jesse]

If Expedia passed on a "bad " credit card number to Jay, That action alone would constitute wire fraud and they should be held accountable....

Riight. Expedia simply passed on the card - they had absolutely no way to know it was "fraud" either.

Thanks to Mary and her sharp eye in seeing that Expedia is trying to get paid for a bogus reservation... IMHO... this stinks worse then a tuna sandwich left in a car in Texas in the summer for three weeks..

Ben.

Highly doubt this is some big master scheme by Expedia to defraud Jay. That's just crazy talk.

 

[TMetzinger]

Riight. Expedia simply passed on the card - they had absolutely no way to know it was "fraud" either.

Highly doubt this is some big master scheme by Expedia to defraud Jay. That's just crazy talk.

Jay's Zooming Expedia....