Law enforcement overreaction?

[flyersfan31]

...and to end the story, the motorist and the state of Minnesota have come to a $9500 settlement:

He's a better man than I. Just proves all over again how stupid the cop was.

 

[Bob Bement]

I would like to throw something else in to this discussion. It is dark and out in the west, in my area, sometimes traffic is light, a female driver is alone in her car. She is away from any populated area. A red blinking light flashes on the car behind her. What does she do? Have you ever heard of someone impersonating an officer? I taught Driver Training at our locale High School for 25 years, and I warned against stopping in this situation. Was I wrong? Bob

 

[wbarnhill]

I would like to throw something else in to this discussion. It is dark and out in the west, in my area, sometimes traffic is light, a female driver is alone in her car. She is away from any populated area. A red blinking light flashes on the car behind her. What does she do? Have you ever heard of someone impersonating an officer? I taught Driver Training at our locale High School for 25 years, and I warned against stopping in this situation. Was I wrong? Bob

Well I think reasons like that were why the investigation came to the conclusion that the driver was not fleeing. I was always told that, male or female, if you're in an dimly lit or otherwise unsafe area, put on your hazard lights and continue to somewhere that is safe. That idea was that it was better for both you AND the officer involved in the stop. Guess they should stop teaching that.

 

[CrashAxe]

Everyone I know in LE still advises people to drive slowly until they are in a safe area. Cell phones are great nowadays for calling 911 and talking to the operator and verifying the validity of the officer behind them, and/or having the reason they aren't pulling over immediately documented on tape.

Granted, in this case, the Trooper's quick action would have made a phone call virtually impossible. Her actions were just indefensible and inexplicable from what I have heard.

Every occupation has its 10%. I'll bet MSP Troopers will be making jokes in private revolving around "doing a Rindle" for years to come.

 

[gkainz]

Denver had a series of assaults a while back where someone impersonated a police officer and pulled people over. The police had numerous spots on tv advising motorists to continue to drive to well-lit public areas in the event they were pulled over.

I recall a well-publicized event a number of years ago in San Diego where a young woman was pulled over, directed to a (then unused) dark off-ramp off the I-15 north of Mira Mesa and was raped (IIRC) and murdered. The killer was an actual LEO (CPS, perhaps?), not just impersonating one.

 

[gprellwitz]

Everyone I know in LE still advises people to drive slowly until they are in a safe area. Cell phones are great nowadays for calling 911 and talking to the operator and verifying the validity of the officer behind them, and/or having the reason they aren't pulling over immediately documented on tape.

And then the officer charges them with driving while on a cell phone, to top it off!

 

[CrashAxe]

LOL. You just can't win against the Man.

 

[Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe]

LOL. You just can't win against the Man.

http://www.wmur.com/news/13648782/detail.html

Hambrook said that drivers can also drive to a more public place if they are in a darkened area or back road.

http://www.timesdispatch.com/rtd/news/local/crime/article/MANNGAT13_20090213-135808/205909/P30/

Anyone wondering whether they are being stopped by an actual law enforcement officer should drive slowly to a well-lit, public area and call 911 to verify, Perry said.

“We do have unmarked cars,” Perry said. “We want people to be confident that when they’re stopped, it really is a police officer.”

On the other hand:
http://www.ibrattleboro.com/article.php/20071001151227930

However, if you are unable to confirm if it is an officer or not and decide to continue on to a more populated area, you should be aware of some potential consequences. It is very possible that when you do finally stop at the gas station, police station, or the like, the officer will be operating as if a pursuit just ended. He will likely yell commands to you over a speaker. He or she may handcuff you. You may even be searched and placed into a police car before you have an opportunity to explain why you did what you did.

 

[chambers]

...and to end the story, the motorist and the state of Minnesota have come to a $9500 settlement:

I would not accept any settlement that did not include the officer's resignation.

 

[jmaynard]

I would not accept any settlement that did not include the officer's resignation.

Good luck on that one...it's doubtful he could have obtained it in court. For that matter, it's surprising that the state police even mentioned she'd gotten a reprimand.

 

[Clark1961]

Doncha know that LE isn't responsible for their actions? Tough luck getting an apology much less a resignation...

A Denver policeman just got acquitted after a kid received some serious injuries while handcuffed. The jury said none of the witnesses, which included the officers involved, were credible so they couldn't convict. Nice job by the officers ehh? If each tells a different story then nothing can be pinned on anybody...of course every now and then (but not near often enough) someone gets some video and then the lies don't matter.

 

[Maxmosbey]

130 posts on a guy who gets bumped and yelled at because he wouldn't pull over for a cop, and not a word on this one. Maybe I missed it. I'm sure that there has to be someone who is outraged by this.

(CNN) -- At least three police officers in Oakland, California, were shot and killed Saturday afternoon after a man pulled over for a routine traffic stop opened fire and then battled SWAT officers at a nearby building, police said.

Sgt. Daniel Sakai, from left, Sgt. Mark Dunakin and Sgt. Ervin Romans were killed in the shootings.

The man, a 26-year-old Oakland resident, was later fatally shot in a shootout with a SWAT team in an apartment complex where he hid.
A fourth officer -- also shot -- remained in critical condition, police said at a late-night news conference.
California Gov. Arnold Schwarzenegger's office differed from police, saying four officers had died in the shootings.

Watch fellow officers, families grieve »
Authorities discovered the alleged gunman, 26-year-old Lovelle Mixon, had an extensive criminal history. At the time of the shooting, he was in violation of parole for assault with a deadly weapon, police said.
The incident began about 1 p.m. in east Oakland when two motorcycle officers tried to pull over a car for a "fairly routine traffic stop," said Dave Kozicki, the deputy police chief.
Immediately afterward, emergency call dispatchers received reports that two officers were down at the scene and needed attention. They had been shot, Kozicki said.

Watch acting police chief describe what happened »
The first victim, Sgt. Mark Dunakin, 40, died, police said. He had been with the force for 18 years. The second officer, John Hege, 41, remained in critical condition.


Soon after the first shooting, police began an intense search for the gunman. An anonymous caller directed authorities to a building on an adjacent street where the gunman was believed to be barricaded, said acting Police Chief Howard Jordan.

Watch aerial views of shooting locations »
The gunman opened fire on SWAT officers who entered the apartment, killing two more officers before police returned fire, killing the suspect, Jordan said.
The two police officers killed were Sgt. Ervin Romans, 43, and Sgt. Daniel Sakai, 35. Romans had been with the department since 1996; Sakai since 2000.
A third officer, grazed by a bullet, was treated and released, said police spokesman Jeff Thomason.
"We come together in shock, in grief, in sadness and sorrow at a set of tragic incidences," said Oakland Mayor Ron Dellums.

Schwarzenegger said flags at the state capitol will fly at half-staff to honor the fallen officers.
"This is a tragic day for law enforcement officers everywhere," he said in a statement.

 

[Clark1961]

It's sad and unfortunate that folks died on the job. It's never good to see that happen. That said, maybe if LE would come clean a little more often they would have a little more support?

 

[steingar]

I would like to think that most LEOs with an IQ in the triple digits can tell the difference between fleeing and moving to a safe place. I've heard stories of bikers trailed for miles by LEOs because it was obvious to the LEO that the motorcyclist couldn't hear or see them (a combination of windblast and a hunched forward riding position).

My heart truly goes out to the families of the slain officers. It is certainly not an easy job.

 

[gprellwitz]

My condolences, admiration, and heartfelt thanks go out to those slain officers. However, for the purposes of this thread, realize that they willingly assumed the risks, from which we as a people benefit. However, I'm not sure what that has to do with this particular case of idiocy.

The motorist in MN believed that the officer was there to protect him and would want him to take steps to ensure both his and her safety, only to be rudely surprised.

 

[gkainz]

It is indeed a tragic day, as the governor said. I'm sure there's lots of room for outrage in that case, as well. My condolences to the families of the officers killed and wounded.

I wonder how many times this guy had processed thru the system? How many times did he appear before a judge and not get the maximum penalty allowed?

Out on parole, and in violation of said parole at the time of the shooting. Why was he granted parole?

I don't see the connection between this and the original thread content.

 

[alaskaflyer]

Most people don't give a damn Max, folks would rather talk about the stone in their shoe.

 

[SkyHog]

130 posts on a guy who gets bumped and yelled at because he wouldn't pull over for a cop, and not a word on this one. Maybe I missed it. I'm sure that there has to be someone who is outraged by this.

(CNN) -- At least three police officers in Oakland, California, were shot and killed Saturday afternoon after a man pulled over for a routine traffic stop opened fire and then battled SWAT officers at a nearby building, police said.

Sgt. Daniel Sakai, from left, Sgt. Mark Dunakin and Sgt. Ervin Romans were killed in the shootings.

The man, a 26-year-old Oakland resident, was later fatally shot in a shootout with a SWAT team in an apartment complex where he hid.
A fourth officer -- also shot -- remained in critical condition, police said at a late-night news conference.
California Gov. Arnold Schwarzenegger's office differed from police, saying four officers had died in the shootings.

Watch fellow officers, families grieve »
Authorities discovered the alleged gunman, 26-year-old Lovelle Mixon, had an extensive criminal history. At the time of the shooting, he was in violation of parole for assault with a deadly weapon, police said.
The incident began about 1 p.m. in east Oakland when two motorcycle officers tried to pull over a car for a "fairly routine traffic stop," said Dave Kozicki, the deputy police chief.
Immediately afterward, emergency call dispatchers received reports that two officers were down at the scene and needed attention. They had been shot, Kozicki said.

Watch acting police chief describe what happened »
The first victim, Sgt. Mark Dunakin, 40, died, police said. He had been with the force for 18 years. The second officer, John Hege, 41, remained in critical condition.


Soon after the first shooting, police began an intense search for the gunman. An anonymous caller directed authorities to a building on an adjacent street where the gunman was believed to be barricaded, said acting Police Chief Howard Jordan.

Watch aerial views of shooting locations »
The gunman opened fire on SWAT officers who entered the apartment, killing two more officers before police returned fire, killing the suspect, Jordan said.
The two police officers killed were Sgt. Ervin Romans, 43, and Sgt. Daniel Sakai, 35. Romans had been with the department since 1996; Sakai since 2000.
A third officer, grazed by a bullet, was treated and released, said police spokesman Jeff Thomason.
"We come together in shock, in grief, in sadness and sorrow at a set of tragic incidences," said Oakland Mayor Ron Dellums.

Schwarzenegger said flags at the state capitol will fly at half-staff to honor the fallen officers.
"This is a tragic day for law enforcement officers everywhere," he said in a statement.

Does it make you feel better to belittle a victim of police overzealousness by saying "Hey, it could be worse, these three guys got shot to death."

I guess your post deserves a pat on the back. Nicely done.

 

[Maxmosbey]

I don't see the connection between this and the original thread content.

Just to illustrate that not all cops over react at a "routine traffic stop." This thread is about a cop who overreacted during a traffic stop. I was getting the feeling that the tread was trying to portray cops as over reactive in general. In my post, I was showing an illustration of a couple of motorcycle cops who did not overreact. In this case, the guy who was being stopped over reacted.

 

[Missa]

I would like to throw something else in to this discussion. It is dark and out in the west, in my area, sometimes traffic is light, a female driver is alone in her car. She is away from any populated area. A red blinking light flashes on the car behind her. What does she do? Have you ever heard of someone impersonating an officer? I taught Driver Training at our locale High School for 25 years, and I warned against stopping in this situation. Was I wrong? Bob

In the situation you discribe, I'm not stopping. I'm calling 911 on my cell phone and telling them what and why and finding out if it's a real officer or not and where the nearest police station is and I will drive there.

 

[Maxmosbey]

Does it make you feel better to belittle a victim of police overzealousness by saying "Hey, it could be worse, these three guys got shot to death."

I guess your post deserves a pat on the back. Nicely done.

Thanks, I was waiting for you to chime in with something profound. And they weren't three "guys" who got "shot to death." They were two police officers making a routine traffic stop, and another officer who was trying to apprehend the killer after he murdered the two officers.

 

[gismo]

The tragic situation in California is indeed a 180 from the unfortunate one in Minnesota. Fortunately neither is the norm, in my 40+ years of driving I've been the "victim" of more than my share of traffic stops (average of about one per year) and none, nada, zip, have involved any misbehavior by the apprehending officer. I encountered a female officer who was pretty aggressive (hand on her gun in an unclipped holster with shouted instructions to "remain in the vehicle") and even one case where I tried the "slow pursuit" for 100 yards to get out of traffic but nothing I would consider excessive or unreasonable beyond a couple of instances where I got a ticket I didn't think I deserved (then again, I've gotten away with nothing more than a warning a couple times when I truly deserved more too).

I can say that I think if I were a cop it would scare the bejezus out of me everytime I had to walk up to a car full of strangers on the side of a road in the middle of nowhere.

 

[SkyHog]

Just to illustrate that not all cops over react at a "routine traffic stop." This thread is about a cop who overreacted during a traffic stop. I was getting the feeling that the tread was trying to portray cops as over reactive in general. In my post, I was showing an illustration of a couple of motorcycle cops who did not overreact. In this case, the guy who was being stopped over reacted.

Oh wow, its a good thing you pointed out that "not all cops over react at a 'routine traffic stop.'" since that is obviously what everyone was saying throughout this whole thread.

I feel better knowing that someone was available to point out our errors. So - can we get back to the TOPIC THE THREAD WAS ABOUT now?

 

[alaskaflyer]

Once again I'm betting that most good LEOs would be angry at this person's actions. IF everything you said is accurate that person needs some serious disciplinary action at the least and the State needs to pay for the guys van to be fixed.

Absent other facts not in the linked article I think you will likely see both of those things happening.

State trooper disciplined for New Year's Eve "P.I.T." stop

...and to end the story, the motorist and the state of Minnesota have come to a $9500 settlement:

So - can we get back to the TOPIC THE THREAD WAS ABOUT now?

So why are we still talking about this?

 

[gismo]

The tragic situation in California is indeed a 180 from the unfortunate one in Minnesota. Fortunately neither is the norm, in my 40+ years of driving I've been the "victim" of more than my share of traffic stops (average of about one per year) and none, nada, zip, have involved any misbehavior by the apprehending officer. I encountered a female officer who was pretty aggressive (hand on her gun in an unclipped holster with shouted instructions to "remain in the vehicle") and even one case where I tried the "slow pursuit" for 100 yards to get out of traffic but nothing I would consider excessive or unreasonable beyond a couple of instances where I got a ticket I didn't think I deserved (then again, I've gotten away with nothing more than a warning a couple times when I truly deserved more too).

I can say that I think if I were a cop it would scare the bejezus out of me everytime I had to walk up to a car full of strangers on the side of a road in the middle of nowhere.

As to the disparity between the thread content on the two incidents Max, I think that's more a matter of timing than anything else. I made the OP in this thread after watching the story on the local TV news and it's taken 2-1/2 months for the 140+ posts to trickle in. I'll bet if you started a thread on the murder of those officers in California you'd generate quite a run as well. I was thinking of posting about that myself but was waiting for more information to surface.

 

[SkyHog]

So why are we still talking about this?

If I, as a normal, ordinary citizen, pulled the same thing, it would cost a lot more than $9500 to shut up the victim.

Why do police officers get the ability to harrass the citizens (not that all police officers do, but they certainly have that ability)? Why is there no oversight outside of the force itself?

 

[alaskaflyer]

If I, as a normal, ordinary citizen, pulled the same thing, it would cost a lot more than $9500 to shut up the victim.

So? Aren't you one of the many members around these parts who complain about out of control civil judgment amounts?

Why is there no oversight outside of the force itself?

You mean like the ballot box?

 

[dmccormack]

If I, as a normal, ordinary citizen, pulled the same thing, it would cost a lot more than $9500 to shut up the victim.

Why do police officers get the ability to harrass the citizens (not that all police officers do, but they certainly have that ability)? Why is there no oversight outside of the force itself?

"No oversight?"

Are you serious?

 

[SkyHog]

So? Aren't you one of the many members around these parts who complain about out of control civil judgment amounts?

Yes, but that doesn't mean "We'll start by reducing the penalties of those that we TRUST to protect us.

You mean like the ballot box?

No, I mean like a sort of review committee that doesn't wear the same badge as the offender....

 

[SkyHog]

"No oversight?"

Are you serious?

Crystal.

 

[dmccormack]

Crystal.

"Crystal serious"?

 

[SkyHog]

"Crystal serious"?

Crystal serious.

 

[Maxmosbey]

If I, as a normal, ordinary citizen, pulled the same thing, it would cost a lot more than $9500 to shut up the victim.

Why do police officers get the ability to harrass the citizens (not that all police officers do, but they certainly have that ability)? Why is there no oversight outside of the force itself?

There is oversight. A municipal police officer is responsible to the chief of police, and the chief of police is responsible to the city council, the mayor, and the city manager. The county deputy is responsible to the county sheriff, who is responsible to the county supervisors and the county attorney. Law enforcement agencies do not exist on their own, they are a part of some government entity. SkyHog, do you even have any idea of how things really work?

 

[dmccormack]

Crystal serious.

That must some hip Southwest folk talk.

I don't get it.

 

[dmccormack]

There is oversight. A municipal police officer is responsible to the chief of police, and the chief of police is responsible to the city council, the mayor, and the city manager. The county deputy is responsible to the county sheriff, who is responsible to the county supervisors and the county attorney. Law enforcement agencies do not exist on their own, they are a part of some government entity. SkyHog, do you even have any idea of how things really work?

That's pretty crystal clear to me....

 

[Clark1961]

There is oversight.

Perhaps you should check out Denver. The person charged with oversight complains that he has no effective authority.

The only effective oversight seems to be video in the courtroom and that is just too late. The corruption runs deep in some areas and perhaps that is what Nick has experienced. Perhaps.

 

[gprellwitz]

There is oversight. A municipal police officer is responsible to the chief of police, and the chief of police is responsible to the city council, the mayor, and the city manager. The county deputy is responsible to the county sheriff, who is responsible to the county supervisors and the county attorney. Law enforcement agencies do not exist on their own, they are a part of some government entity. SkyHog, do you even have any idea of how things really work?

I think that Nick was probably referring to someone outside the force with the ability (both training and authority) to investigate allegations who are outside the agency being investigated. That generally would not include city council, the mayor, city manager, or county supervisors. It may include the county attorney, however. Apparently Internal Affairs (or whatever it's called) is too close to be impartial, since they wear the same badge.

 

[dmccormack]

Perhaps you should check out Denver. The person charged with oversight complains that he has no effective authority.

The only effective oversight seems to be video in the courtroom and that is just too late. The corruption runs deep in some areas and perhaps that is what Nick has experienced. Perhaps.

Hmmm....

Who oversees the overseers, eh?

That's not the same as "There is no oversight."

 

[Maxmosbey]

Perhaps you should check out Denver. The person charged with oversight complains that he has no effective authority.

The only effective oversight seems to be video in the courtroom and that is just too late. The corruption runs deep in some areas and perhaps that is what Nick has experienced. Perhaps.

Perhaps I'll just try to move on if I can. I kind of wish I had stayed out of this thread in the first place, but I didn't. Now I'm sucked into it.

 

[dmccormack]

Perhaps I'll just try to move on if I can. I kind of wish I had stayed out of this thread in the first place, but I didn't. Now I'm sucked into it.

Someone needs to oversee your posts.