Law enforcement overreaction?

gismo

gismo

Touchdown! Greaser!
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iGismo
http://wcco.com/crime/state.trooper.crash.2.927253.html

The local paper and TV news covered a story about a guy who was subjected to a bit too much enthusiasm by a MN state trouper IMO. Keep in mind that the guy wasn't the least bit drunk and wasn't speeding excessively (65 in a 55 on a freeway in good weather). The officer decided to make the stop because he changed lanes without signaling but otherwise carefully and safely. The driver who was originally in the left lane of the freeway made his way legally and carefully to the right side of the freeway, then when he observed that the shoulder wasn't plowed wide enough from prior snowfall to get out of the traffic he proceeded (slowly and with turn signals) up an exit about 100 ft further and then turned onto the side street at the top of the ramp. At that point as he was pulling to the curb at (by his estimate) 5 mph the officer proceeded to ram the back end of his van sideways then jumped out with gun drawn scaring the smelly stuff out of his three young kids strapped into their car seats. While I do understand that LEOs need a fair amount of latitude WRT the use of force in their jobs for their own safety, IMO this officer stepped way over the line of reasonableness. I'm pretty certain that she simply felt frustrated when the "perp" didn't stop immediately and let that feeling overcome her good judgement. Sounds a lot like the actions of a bully to me. Her comment "You don't decide where it's safe to stop, we do." strikes me as a bit over the top as well but it may be a "normal" feeling for a traffic cop.

I had a marginally similar experience once (without the physical overreaction) when I got pulled over for a minor overspeed. It was also in the winter and I foolishly thought it would be better for all involved if we didn't block the only open lane in my direction and proceeded to the first turnoff about 300 ft beyond where I was when the flashing lights came on. The (local) officer gave me an angry tounge lashing along with my ticket even though I had slowed to about 10 mph and put my 4ways on as soon as he began the stop. At least he didn't ram my car or pull his weapon, but I still think he should have simply followed me the 300 ft and then issued the citation.

What do you all think? (like I really need to ask)
 
I think you pull over and stop when you see the lights -- the cop will tell you over the PA if s/he wants you to move to another location. They normally hold the lights until they want you to stop. BTDT.
 
I have never pulled over in a place where I felt that I would either block traffic, nor where I felt unsafe. The officers have always approved of my decisions, and seemed to appreciate my concern for THEIR safety.

I guess you will find a few idiots in every profession, but I wouldn't let those idiots be the basis for deciding how to interact with the rest of the profession.
________
Grrr (Advert)
 
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Once again I'm betting that most good LEOs would be angry at this person's actions. IF everything you said is accurate that person needs some serious disciplinary action at the least and the State needs to pay for the guys van to be fixed.
 
AdamZ said:
Once again I'm betting that most good LEOs would be angry at this person's actions. IF everything you said is accurate that person needs some serious disciplinary action at the least and the State needs to pay for the guys van to be fixed.
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Here's more video, from the moment that the patrol car viewed the illegal lane change. This one shows a lot more of the action.

www.kare11.com/news/news_article.aspx?storyid=538695&catid=14
 
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Ron Levy said:
I think you pull over and stop when you see the lights -- the cop will tell you over the PA if s/he wants you to move to another location. They normally hold the lights until they want you to stop. BTDT.
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I believe you are correct but it seems that there ought to be some room for disagreement on the place to stop when the driver feels it's not safe. Something equivalent to dropping your gear and following after an intercept but then refusing to land at the first airport offered by raising the gear and circling. There has been more than one serious accident when a third vehicle rammed into a traffic stop around here.
 
Absolute overreaction. That ****ole cop has a big attitude problem. I say she should lose her job. To serve and protect, not hassle and abuse. Indefensible. Even the lane change thing is totally bogus. He was driving fine, not weaving, nothing. So he didn't signal (yes, I always do) - so what???? She's got better things to do. If that was significant in her opinion, then she has issues. Gun at the head? LEAVING THE KIDS ALONE IN THE VAN???????????????????????? What the hell is up with that?????? Take the keys from him and let him at least sit with the kids.

No. this is an outrage. Typical tough-a## cop crap. Did you hear the music she was listening to? Not exactly professional. Now he has terrified kids and an expensive repair bill. Get her stupid a$$ off the street.
 
Ron Levy said:
I think you pull over and stop when you see the lights -- the cop will tell you over the PA if s/he wants you to move to another location. They normally hold the lights until they want you to stop. BTDT.
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I've noticed LEOs who, in their stops, really didn't care that traffic was slowed, that lots of people were inconvenienced, and that an unsafe condition was created. They can inconvenience me plenty for their murder investigation, but for some guy who didn't signal when he changed lanes?

I was pulled over once on a steep berm by the commands of an officer. Trying to keep my bike upright I was ordered off, at which time it promptly fell over (something I told the officer it would do). The damage would up stalling the bike in one of the worst neighborhoods in LA, and created a really scary situation for me.
 
lancefisher said:
I believe you are correct but it seems that there ought to be some room for disagreement on the place to stop when the driver feels it's not safe. Something equivalent to dropping your gear and following after an intercept but then refusing to land at the first airport offered by raising the gear and circling. There has been more than one serious accident when a third vehicle rammed into a traffic stop around here.
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Driver is still PIC. Maybe we need to use the interception signals with the cops - "no that landing area is unsuitable".
 
In Tennessee at least, you are permitted to drive to a well lit/congested area prior to following orders to pull over. YMMV
 
flyersfan31 said:
Absolute overreaction. That ****ole cop has a big attitude problem. I say she should lose her job. To serve and protect, not hassle and abuse. Indefensible. Even the lane change thing is totally bogus. He was driving fine, not weaving, nothing. So he didn't signal (yes, I always do) - so what???? She's got better things to do. If that was significant in her opinion, then she has issues. Gun at the head? LEAVING THE KIDS ALONE IN THE VAN???????????????????????? What the hell is up with that?????? Take the keys from him and let him at least sit with the kids.

No. this is an outrage. Typical tough-a## cop crap. Did you hear the music she was listening to? Not exactly professional. Now he has terrified kids and an expensive repair bill. Get her stupid a$$ off the street.
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The one time I was involved with local law enforcement you never drew your weapon unless it was necessary to protect life. If there was no imminent threat or crime in progress but you were uncomfortable you were supposed to wait for backup before proceeding.

There are times when you're the only one on the scene and have to make rapid life/death decisions. This incident did not appear to be one of those times.
 
TMetzinger said:
The one time I was involved with local law enforcement you never drew your weapon unless it was necessary to protect life. If there was no imminent threat or crime in progress but you were uncomfortable you were supposed to wait for backup before proceeding.
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The driver immediately jumping out and turning towards the police car is a big "uh-oh" for cops. See the Chris Rock video in the Patty Wagstaff thread -- sit, put your hands on the wheel, and wait. Anything else is perceived as threatening to a lone officer at night. I suspect that's when the officer drew her weapon. While I have questions about her other conduct, I don't about that particular action and then having the driver back up and be cuffed for a pat-down.
 
She tried to PIT a van going 5mph? So she's an ass AND stupid. Great.

Take her off the street for a few months and retrain her. Also deduct the repair costs from her pay. At least no one got shot in this incident.
 
Ron Levy said:
The driver immediately jumping out and turning towards the police car is a big "uh-oh" for cops. See the Chris Rock video in the Patty Wagstaff thread -- sit, put your hands on the wheel, and wait. Anything else is perceived as threatening to a lone officer at night. I suspect that's when the officer drew her weapon. While I have questions about her other conduct, I don't about that particular action and then having the driver back up and be cuffed for a pat-down.
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Agreed. I still do not believe he should've been hit with "felony fleeing" and arrested. And this is one of those cases where I think accountability should be enforced, and maybe these types of incidents will dwindle. Any restitution to the guy should come from the officer's pay.
 
Ron Levy said:
The driver immediately jumping out and turning towards the police car is a big "uh-oh" for cops. See the Chris Rock video in the Patty Wagstaff thread -- sit, put your hands on the wheel, and wait. Anything else is perceived as threatening to a lone officer at night. I suspect that's when the officer drew her weapon. While I have questions about her other conduct, I don't about that particular action and then having the driver back up and be cuffed for a pat-down.
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No argument. I missed that.
 
Not everyone knows what is and isn't what an LEO wants or doesn't want to see. Some of us have jobs. It is also a pretty natural thing after your vehicle suffers a collision to get out and see what happens. The cop was way, way, way out of line. Sadly, I doubt anything will happen to her, although if it does it will only be because the case made it into the national spotlight.
 
steingar said:
Not everyone knows what is and isn't what an LEO wants or doesn't want to see. Some of us have jobs. It is also a pretty natural thing after your vehicle suffers a collision to get out and see what happens. The cop was way, way, way out of line. Sadly, I doubt anything will happen to her, although if it does it will only be because the case made it into the national spotlight.
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Especially someone ramming your car when your kids are in there.
 
Ron Levy said:
The driver immediately jumping out and turning towards the police car is a big "uh-oh" for cops. See the Chris Rock video in the Patty Wagstaff thread -- sit, put your hands on the wheel, and wait. Anything else is perceived as threatening to a lone officer at night. I suspect that's when the officer drew her weapon. While I have questions about her other conduct, I don't about that particular action and then having the driver back up and be cuffed for a pat-down.
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I pretty much agree although I'm pretty certain the driver would have sat in his seat if the police car hadn't rammed his van while he was parking it. Is there any rules about an officer creating a threatening situation and then "reacting" to it by pulling a gun? In any case, considering her actions up to that point I'm not surprised she went for containment, but I'm nowhere near convinced it was truly justified.
 
Sorry, but that's one piece of crap cop that should not be interacting with the public. There was NO sign of fleeing. The father should file civil claims for both the vehicle damages and emotional damage to the children. She needs a desk job or termination. No more patrol.

Can anyone here honestly say they are going to be calm when it appears the cop is trying to run them off the road while their children are in the car? Particularly with the very slow speed?
 
LearDriver said:
This will cost the agency a lot of money to fix. This cop will be lucky if she doesn't do time when it is all said and done.
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Apparently not.

Salter was taken to jail where he stays for almost two days. His kids ages two, three, six, all saw the altercation with the trooper and are traumatized.

Salter was not charged with the felony by Ramsey County because the county attorney said there was insufficient evidence that he was fleeing.

He was left with $1,500 damage to his van, a ticket for illegal lane change and a $140 towing fee.

Rindal is not on paid administrative leave and has been a trooper for 11 years.
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flyersfan31 said:
Absolute overreaction. That ****ole cop has a big attitude problem. I say she should lose her job. To serve and protect, not hassle and abuse. Indefensible. Even the lane change thing is totally bogus. He was driving fine, not weaving, nothing. So he didn't signal (yes, I always do) - so what???? She's got better things to do. If that was significant in her opinion, then she has issues. Gun at the head? LEAVING THE KIDS ALONE IN THE VAN???????????????????????? What the hell is up with that?????? Take the keys from him and let him at least sit with the kids.

No. this is an outrage. Typical tough-a## cop crap. Did you hear the music she was listening to? Not exactly professional. Now he has terrified kids and an expensive repair bill. Get her stupid a$$ off the street.
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You know why she stopped him for a minor infraction. ( which is still an infraction) It was New Years eve she was looking for a DUI.
 
AdamZ said:
Once again I'm betting that most good LEOs would be angry at this person's actions. IF everything you said is accurate that person needs some serious disciplinary action at the least and the State needs to pay for the guys van to be fixed.
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Absent other facts not in the linked article I think you will likely see both of those things happening.
 
And people wonder why I don't like cops...
 
come on Ted ya can't lump any group all together. Cops, lawyers , Corp exeucs, politicians plumbers, Car Salesman. There are good and bad.
 
AdamZ said:
come on Ted ya can't lump any group all together. Cops, lawyers , Corp exeucs, politicians plumbers, Car Salesman. There are good and bad.
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You're right, of course, Adam. As an attorney friend of mine always says:

"95% of the attorneys ruin the reputation of the 5% who are ethical"
 
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"I believe the defendant's right to a fair trial before he is executed!"
 
I'm no cop, but one thing I know 100% is a PIT manuver just doesnt work at those speeds, and also seriously doubt that its department policy for an officer to PIT a suspect that early in a chase. I know when my dad was a state trooper in Arizona, PIT was the absolute last option, its extremely hazardous.
 
SNewlin06 said:
I'm no cop, but one thing I know 100% is a PIT manuver just doesnt work at those speeds, and also seriously doubt that its department policy for an officer to PIT a suspect that early in a chase. I know when my dad was a state trooper in Arizona, PIT was the absolute last option, its extremely hazardous.
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Her department is mostly making noises about how she acted within department guidelines. Just the fact that she's still on active duty says a lot about her superior's opinions on this.
 
AdamZ said:
You know why she stopped him for a minor infraction. ( which is still an infraction) It was New Years eve she was looking for a DUI.
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Oh no doubt. But, I'm no LEO and I could tell that wasn't a drunk driver. Somethin tells me she was hepped up on her music and just wanted to kick some ass. Probably PO'd about being alone on New Years because she is short and ugly. Who knows? Regardless, she should be kicked off the force.

I got stopped in a very bogus situation once, again, simply a DUI dragnet. I told the cop, no officer, I was just out at hockey practice (1am, and absolutely true). One look at the gear in back, or more likely, the stench emanating from my car (goalies are by far the most awful smelling critters on earth) and he let me go.
 
I think the problem is that police officers are self policed. If we actually had power over them (as we should, since they exist to protect us), this crap wouldn't happen. That horrible woman would be in jail, and police officers would actually respect their position.

There are lots of good cops. The problem is that if a good cop makes a bad mistake, they know their department will back them up, so hey, no worries.

Its disgusting, and unfortunately, there's nothing that can be done about it, because we've let police officers become too powerful. The police force, as a whole, is no longer serving the people, but scaring the people. Speeding, illegal lane change, failure to hold a valid registration, jaywalking, etc. How do the most commons crimes even warrant "public protection" status? Police officers should ONLY be out enforcing things like violent crime and true safety issues. As much as I hate to see them, cameras should handle the rest.

If this happened, police forces would not be so understaffed, since there'd be a LOT less to watch over.

Police officers should not be revenue generators for the state. That's what they've become. As a whole, they've become power hungry, right stealing revenue generators.
 
I once had a similar situation happen:

I got busted on a seatbelt violation where I pulled up to a red light, took off my safety belt, leaned over to pick up my cigarettes, which had fallen on the passenger's floor. When I leaned up, there was a police officer standing at my window, who had been walking the line of stopped cars to bust people. He demanded my license, and the light turned green.

"Let me pull into that parking lot so I don't obstruct the traffic, sir."

"NO, give me your license, NOW! I'm NOT going to ask again."

So I did, and we held up traffic for a little bit. He told me to go park.

In hind sight, I wish I had refused to park, since he was asking me to drive without my license present. Would have served the jerk right, since I got a ticket for something that was BS to begin with.
 
What's with the music blaring in the officers car? Might she have been partying a bit too much?

The pit was done less than 2 minutes into the pursuit. While she may have suspected the guy driving on was drunk, 2 minutes hardly demonstrates fleeing.
 
AdamZ said:
You know why she stopped him for a minor infraction. ( which is still an infraction) It was New Years eve she was looking for a DUI.
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And people in another thread wonder why I think the DUI laws are so out of whack.
 
AdamZ said:
come on Ted ya can't lump any group all together. Cops, lawyers , Corp exeucs, politicians plumbers, Car Salesman. There are good and bad.
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You are correct, Adam. My problem is that my experience with cops has been more in line with Tim's friend's comment:

timwinters said:
You're right, of course, Adam. As an attorney friend of mine always says:

"95% of the attorneys ruin the reputation of the 5% who are ethical"
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There are good ones and there are bad ones, just like in any profession. The problem is that in a lot of cases, stereotypes exist for reasons. I've come across some cops who do their profession justice, even when they cite me for speeding (I can't argue on that ticket when I get pulled over for 98 in a 65). However the vast majority of cops I come across yell at me and treat me like a criminal just for asking the time of day. It's that sort of treatment that causes the negative impression that I have of them. It will change when I feel I can actually trust police as a law abiding citizen (which I should be able to) rather than fear them.
 
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