Tesla Model 3 - Finally.

Tantalum said:
..wonder how much current draw it would require to keep the door handle area at just above freezing when conditions dictate, IE, if ambient < 0*C then heat door handles to 1*C..
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Macaulay Culkin has you covered.

sub-buzz-9156-1606789347-9.jpg
 
flyingcheesehead said:
Wait, what?!? Cool! Does it let me set it to pop automatically when I approach a la Model X? :D
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Didn’t see that feature yet.

opening door via app requires software 2022.36 (which I don’t have yet. Currently I have 2022.20)
 
Tantalum said:
..wonder how much current draw it would require to keep the door handle area at just above freezing when conditions dictate, IE, if ambient < 0*C then heat door handles to 1*C..
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Wouldn't take much current, but the amount of power used across potentially hours may not be worth it. Use all the current for a very short period of time and you could melt anything that got in there in seconds I'm sure. However, that would also mean more part$ and increased production complexity... I do know of people who have merely used the app to turn the heat on high inside the car and waited a few minutes.

FWIW, I went all winter last year without either the handles or the door freezing, but there are sure times it'd be convenient for the door to pop itself open hands free.
 
AggieMike88 said:
I have done the remote hvac in summer. It's a favorite feature
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Likewise. And the HVAC is impressively fast. Last winter (in Wisconsin) I timed it once. 20ºF in the cabin to 70ºF in the cabin in two minutes flat! So I generally tap the button on the app widget, close my laptop and stuff it in my backpack, put on my jacket, put on my backpack, and take the 20-second walk out to the car and it's already warm. That is a heavenly feature.
 
For the Model3 owners…

I am driving out to Charlotte for this round of training to avoid spending on 3 weeks of rental car. As I drive, I plan on keeping myself occupied during the drive by reviewing scans, flows, checklists, memory items.

I have those on PDFs. And to make sure I am remembering the details and practicing correctly, I found a website that helps display PDF’s on the screen using the browser. And yes, the browser can be accessed when driving.

Look at http://teslapdf.com/

And add in usual disclaimer to not get too distracted while driving; keep arms, legs, hands, feet, and unmentionables inside the car at all times; during a certain weekend in April, if the resurrection lasts for more than 4 hours, please seek immediate medical assistance; and liquid heat added to jock straps might be the real inspiration to Jerry Lee’s famous song.
 
Got the latest app and tried out the remote door open last night. Very nice. I also rearranged the icons in the app and widget so I now have driver's door, frunk, trunk, and climate on as single taps from my phone's home screen. Two armloads of groceries, being able to pop frunk and driver's door was pretty nice!

I love that this thing keeps getting better.
 
how did we ever manage... before these remote apps, before remote garage door openers, before TV remotes.

It's a wonder...
 
Bob Noel said:
how did we ever manage... before these remote apps, before remote garage door openers, before TV remotes.

It's a wonder...
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My grandfather used to have a picture of my dad and his siblings when they were young that had a caption "Kids, the best TV remote there is" or something along those lines.
 
AggieMike88 said:
It’s nice when you’re the only one at a level 3 charger
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At version 3 Superchargers, the 250kW ones, it doesn't matter how many other people are there. You get the full 250kW at every charger. It is only at the 150kW Superchargers that two chargers share the available power.

Can't see your current state-of-charge in that pic. I had just over 1,100 mi/hr at a V3 charger at 250kW with a SoC of 14%.
 
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Larry in TN said:
At version 2 Superchargers, the 250kW ones, it doesn't matter how many other people are there. You get the full 250kW at every charger. It is only at the 150kW Superchargers that two chargers share the available power.
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The 250kW-at-every-plug ones are version 3.

Version 2 has 150kW shared between two plugs - It used to max out at 120kW per car and 150kW total, but they were able to make some software changes and enable the full 150kW for each car. There's still a ton of V2 Superchargers in the wild.

Version 1 was 100kW max. I don't think any of these exist any more.
 
For you diehard Tesla lovers, do you have yours yet.??

Waterproof, Windproof Electric Lighter?
Yep Waterproof Tesla Inspired Electric Lighter
mail

mail
 
Larry in TN said:
I had just over 1,100 mi/hr at a V3 charger at 250kW with a SoC of 14%.
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A year or so ago the first time at one of the V3 chargers I noticed over 1k mi/hr at < 20% SoC, too. This was a charger on I-40 in the middle of nowhere AR so was quite pleasantly surprised it was a V3.

We've had our M3 for 4 years and mostly charge at home very, very cheaply thanks to TVA's rates, but I have to say with the expansion of the SC network in the past couple of years it's made visiting family even in rural areas of Arkansas doable.
 
A lot of HV batts starting to fail on the Model S. See it on the FB fan page on a regular basis these days. $18K to replace. Owners are starting to offload their Ss that are approaching warranty like crazy. I’ll keep rolling the dice.
 
Velocity173 said:
A lot of HV batts starting to fail on the Model S. See it on the FB fan page on a regular basis these days. $18K to replace. Owners are starting to offload their Ss that are approaching warranty like crazy. I’ll keep rolling the dice.
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Are replacements using updated battery tech/chemistry?

Are the reports including time in service or mileage?
 
AggieMike88 said:
Are replacements using updated battery tech/chemistry?

Are the reports including time in service or mileage?
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Most are going with bigger batteries. Basically switching out their 60,75 and 85 KWH packs for 90 KWHs. Some under warranty, others having to pay between $15-18K out of pocket. No real conclusions can be drawn as to when they fail. For the most part, it’s the older 2012-2016 models. Just reading some of the comments over the last few days, one failed at 56,000 and another at 117,000 miles. My impression is that a bunch of members are seeing these failures and are trying to offload their cars before the 8 year warranty is up.

Mine (85 KWH)has 124,000 miles but I’m fairly sure it was part of the 2019 software upgrade that limits full charge. Those packs were the ones catching fire. Teslas fix was a software patch to limit charging. That action created a few law suits from owners who thought they were buying 265 miles of range, only to find out it’s substantially less.
 
mark.staggs said:
A year or so ago the first time at one of the V3 chargers I noticed over 1k mi/hr at < 20% SoC, too. This was a charger on I-40 in the middle of nowhere AR so was quite pleasantly surprised it was a V3.
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Whether it's a V3 or not depends mostly on when it was installed, not where it is. Once the V3s came out, all new SuCs were V3s (with maybe some limited exceptions in the beginning as inventory of V2s cleared out).

Velocity173 said:
A lot of HV batts starting to fail on the Model S. See it on the FB fan page on a regular basis these days.
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Really? I'm a member of the Tesla Owners Worldwide group on FB, which has very close to 100,000 members. I haven't seen that, but maybe that's "the algorithm"... So I searched the group for "Battery". There are several that have talked about replacement in there, but only about half said they actually did it (or needed to do it) while the others were asking questions. There were also a LOT more posts asking about whether it needed to be done, and a lot more than that asking about replacing the 12V battery (the same battery that's on any other car). There were also posts about key fob batteries, the USB battery they sell online, lots of random discussions about battery technology, etc...

Given the size of the group and the likelihood of someone posting about such a bad situation, I figure there's maybe a 0.25% chance of someone needing to replace a high voltage battery pack over the course of 10 years of ownership. I'm not going to spend much time worrying about it. How many gas cars need engine replacements eventually? I've only owned five gassers in my life and one of them went away when it needed a new engine, so my small sample size is 20%.
 
flyingcheesehead said:
Whether it's a V3 or not depends mostly on when it was installed, not where it is. Once the V3s came out, all new SuCs were V3s (with maybe some limited exceptions in the beginning as inventory of V2s cleared out).



Really? I'm a member of the Tesla Owners Worldwide group on FB, which has very close to 100,000 members. I haven't seen that, but maybe that's "the algorithm"... So I searched the group for "Battery". There are several that have talked about replacement in there, but only about half said they actually did it (or needed to do it) while the others were asking questions. There were also a LOT more posts asking about whether it needed to be done, and a lot more than that asking about replacing the 12V battery (the same battery that's on any other car). There were also posts about key fob batteries, the USB battery they sell online, lots of random discussions about battery technology, etc...

Given the size of the group and the likelihood of someone posting about such a bad situation, I figure there's maybe a 0.25% chance of someone needing to replace a high voltage battery pack over the course of 10 years of ownership. I'm not going to spend much time worrying about it. How many gas cars need engine replacements eventually? I've only owned five gassers in my life and one of them went away when it needed a new engine, so my small sample size is 20%.
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Model S battery failures are a well known issue. The batteries themselves are designed to last 10 years. Not saying that’s a bad thing. ICE is comparable in longevity. Just saying, packs are starting to fail on the older cars and people are starting to off load their vehicles approaching warranty. It’s a common saying to never buy a Tesla out of warranty. I’ve heard the same thing on the Volt FB page. GM is charging a fortune now for batteries because they’re getting low on inventory.

https://www.cnet.com/roadshow/news/tesla-model-s-battery-problem-safety-investigation/

https://www.autoevolution.com/news/...warns-about-battery-pack-failures-199550.html

https://www.autoevolution.com/news/...ding-design-flaw-in-battery-packs-198780.html
 
Velocity173 said:
Model S battery failures are a well known issue. The batteries themselves are designed to last 10 years. Not saying that’s a bad thing. ICE is comparable in longevity. Just saying, packs are starting to fail on the older cars and people are starting to off load their vehicles approaching warranty. It’s a common saying to never buy a Tesla out of warranty. I’ve heard the same thing on the Volt FB page. GM is charging a fortune now for batteries because they’re getting low on inventory.

https://www.cnet.com/roadshow/news/tesla-model-s-battery-problem-safety-investigation/

https://www.autoevolution.com/news/...warns-about-battery-pack-failures-199550.html

https://www.autoevolution.com/news/...ding-design-flaw-in-battery-packs-198780.html
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Minor nit: ICE only lasting 10 years? I think that's a pretty big stretch. Most ICE vehicles aren't replacing/rebuilding powerplants in 100-120K miles these days, it isn't 1960. If an engine lasts less than 160K miles on average, I'd consider it a poor design. Most of the engines that are in car models Tesla is competing against will run 200K miles without issue (that's about 17yrs at 12K miles per year).
 
SoonerAviator said:
Minor nit: ICE only lasting 10 years? I think that's a pretty big stretch. Most ICE vehicles aren't replacing/rebuilding powerplants in 100-120K miles these days, it isn't 1960. If an engine lasts less than 160K miles on average, I'd consider it a poor design. Most of the engines that are in car models Tesla is competing against will run 200K miles without issue (that's about 17yrs at 12K miles per year).
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Well my DeLorean is 40 years old so yeah, an engine / systems are taken care of should last more than 10 years. I think 200,000 miles is probably a better estimate.
 
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One source of data is the Tesloop fleet which includes several of the earliest Model S, Model X, and Model 3 vehicles with many over 300,000 miles and some approaching 500,000.

https://insideevs.com/features/383640/tesla-500000-mile-in-depth-look/
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It’s no secret that most owners love their Tesla vehicles, but not many can say from experience how they hold up over the really long haul. One that can is Tesloop, a shuttle service in Southern California that operates a small fleet of Models S, X and 3. Each of Tesloop’s vehicles logs around 17,000 miles per month. Most have been on the road for well over 300,000 miles, and several are approaching the 500,000-mile mark.
...
For fleet operators, it’s all about the cost per mile. Tesloop says its cost per mile for maintenance is around $0.06, which is comparable to the industry average for legacy vehicles. However, the company’s Teslas spend less time in the garage, and they’ve been serving long past the usual fleet vehicle retirement age of 100,000 miles. Sonnad predicts Tesloop’s Model 3s will serve for over 500,000 miles, and will reach a total cost per mile (including depreciation) as low as $0.18 to $0.25 per mile - far lower than the current average of $0.32 to $0.35 for legacy sedans.
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Here's an article about a specific Model X which has accumulated 400,000 miles; 300,000 on its first battery pack.

https://electrek.co/2020/06/06/tesla-battery-degradation-replacement/

The older Model S and X, which make up most of the Teslas in the 300,000+ mile range, have different battery designs and battery management systems than the Model 3 and Y which make up the majority of Teslas built.
 
Southern California isn't exactly tough on batteries
 
Yeah, some Model S packs last 500,000 miles, some 50,000 miles. NYC Crown Vic taxis racked up well over 400,000 miles when they were in service as well. Also we’re known for being very reliable and cheap to operate.
 
Velocity173 said:
Yeah, some Model S packs last 500,000 miles, some 50,000 miles. NYC Crown Vic taxis racked up well over 400,000 miles when they were in service as well. Also we’re known for being very reliable and cheap to operate.
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Tesloop's experience is that the Tesla's total cost to operate is significantly less than the cost of their Towncar fleet.
 
Larry in TN said:
Tesloop's experience is that the Tesla's total cost to operate is significantly less than the cost of their Towncar fleet.
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Not sure how they’re calculating that up. You can get a used Town Car for a fraction of the cost of a used S or X. Insurance will be a heck of a lot cheaper as well. Not to mention you get into a wreck in a Tesla and it’ll cost a fortune and time to get fixed. They still have parts supply issues. Read complaints on customer service all the time on Tesla club and FB.
 
SoonerAviator said:
Most ICE vehicles aren't replacing/rebuilding powerplants in 100-120K miles these days, it isn't 1960. If an engine lasts less than 160K miles on average, I'd consider it a poor design
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If only I still had my data from the auto salvage yard.

Our average age of engine sales was about 6-8 years behind current model year and an off the cuff survey of customers purchasing a gas engine for their car was the original one quitting at about 130k-150k.
 
Velocity173 said:
Not sure how they’re calculating that up. You can get a used Town Car for a fraction of the cost of a used S or X. Insurance will be a heck of a lot cheaper as well. Not to mention you get into a wreck in a Tesla and it’ll cost a fortune and time to get fixed. They still have parts supply issues. Read complaints on customer service all the time on Tesla club and FB.
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They aren't buying used cars, they buy them new.

The energy costs for the cars is less as is the maintenance costs. The Teslas also last significantly longer.

Teslas are not cheap to maintain, but no vehicle being driven 400,000 miles (643,737 km) in just a few short years is going to be cheap to maintain. Tesloop’s Model S racked up $19,000 in maintenance costs over 400,000 miles, which, in comparison to what a comparable executive sedan like a Lincoln Town Car or Mercedes GLS class vehicle would cost, is actually cheap.

Tesloop estimates maintenance costs on a Lincoln Town car to be closer to $88,500 and for a Mercedes GLS class, $98,900 over the same 400,000 miles. That nets out to a savings of $0.17 or $0.20 per mile in maintenance by driving a Tesla instead of the much more traditional Lincoln and Mercedes offerings.

On cost alone, these numbers make Teslas no-brainers as luxury transportation, undercutting the competition on maintenance and fuel cost by a significant margin.
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https://cleantechnica.com/2018/07/17/tesloop-shares-lessons-learned-in-400000-miles-in-a-tesla/
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AggieMike88 said:
If only I still had my data from the auto salvage yard.

Our average age of engine sales was about 6-8 years behind current model year and an off the cuff survey of customers purchasing a gas engine for their car was the original one quitting at about 130k-150k.
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Sure, but I highly doubt that the entire fleet of Chevy Silverados in 2010 were needing new engines in 2018 with 120K on them. There will always be low mean time failures, especially on engines where maintenance was an afterthought. People are also generally reluctant to bother with an engine replacement on a 20yr old car with 200K on it when the cost is often close to the value of the car as it is.
 
SoonerAviator said:
Minor nit: ICE only lasting 10 years? I think that's a pretty big stretch. Most ICE vehicles aren't replacing/rebuilding powerplants in 100-120K miles these days, it isn't 1960. If an engine lasts less than 160K miles on average, I'd consider it a poor design. Most of the engines that are in car models Tesla is competing against will run 200K miles without issue (that's about 17yrs at 12K miles per year).
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Instead of doubting, a little search gives you the following:
https://www.cnet.com/roadshow/news/average-us-car-age-2022-report/
https://www.cars.com/articles/avera...s-hits-record-high-surpasses-12-years-437017/

You will notice that EV owners keep their cars longer (first owner of the car). :)

If you split cars away from light trucks. Cars are now just pushing past 13 years.

Tim
 
Velocity173 said:
Model S battery failures are a well known issue. The batteries themselves are designed to last 10 years.
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How have I never heard that before?!?

Is this true of the newest ones still? They are using the 18650 still.

3 and Y are currently using 2170, though Ys have started to roll out of Giga Texas with the 4680 cells.

Chemistry is probably more important than geometry, though, and presumably if they have a better chemistry now, they'd apply it to the 18650s at some point as well. I think they've adjusted the formula somewhat, but I don't know if there's an easy distinction like NMC vs LFP, I think the materials are mostly the same still?

Personally, my car has the LFP chemistry that's supposed to hit 80% at 750,000 miles so I'm not too worried about it!

GM is charging a fortune now for batteries because they’re getting low on inventory.
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Probably because they had to replace the entire fleet. They were prone to lighting on fire when fully charged due to a couple of manufacturing defects that, when present in the same cell, could short that cell out when it neared a full charge, which quickly led to thermal runaway and a crispy critter car.

That's why I own a Tesla now. (Previous car was a Chevy Bolt.)

Bob Noel said:
Southern California isn't exactly tough on batteries
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It's not great either. Heat is what kills lithium batteries. One of the worst EV battery issues was with the early Nissan LEAFs that were in hotter climates, particularly Arizona. A large number of those needed replacement.

And while SoCal is not as hot as Arizona, I suspect that there's a higher proportion of cars that live in climate-controlled garages in AZ than CA, which would make AZ better overall.
 
flyingcheesehead said:
How have I never heard that before?!?

Is this true of the newest ones still? They are using the 18650 still.

3 and Y are currently using 2170, though Ys have started to roll out of Giga Texas with the 4680 cells.

Chemistry is probably more important than geometry, though, and presumably if they have a better chemistry now, they'd apply it to the 18650s at some point as well. I think they've adjusted the formula somewhat, but I don't know if there's an easy distinction like NMC vs LFP, I think the materials are mostly the same still?

Personally, my car has the LFP chemistry that's supposed to hit 80% at 750,000 miles so I'm not too worried about it!



Probably because they had to replace the entire fleet. They were prone to lighting on fire when fully charged due to a couple of manufacturing defects that, when present in the same cell, could short that cell out when it neared a full charge, which quickly led to thermal runaway and a crispy critter car.

That's why I own a Tesla now. (Previous car was a Chevy Bolt.)



It's not great either. Heat is what kills lithium batteries. One of the worst EV battery issues was with the early Nissan LEAFs that were in hotter climates, particularly Arizona. A large number of those needed replacement.

And while SoCal is not as hot as Arizona, I suspect that there's a higher proportion of cars that live in climate-controlled garages in AZ than CA, which would make AZ better overall.
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While the battery warranty on the original Model S is 8 years, Franz (7:30) claims a 10 year “life.” I’ve also read 150-200K life which I’d estimate to be 10-15 years. Newer batts are twice that.

 
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TCABM said:
Took a page right out of the Textron ruddervator playbook.
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Yep. This is the issue I see happening with early gen Model S customers. I’ve read complaint after complaint about high cost of parts and long waiting times. I think Tesla has a short term memory problem. Get the initial deliveries out and then move on to newer models hoping the early Model S adopters won’t care about lack of support for their vehicles.

While this guy’s situation is exaggerated, this is the problem when vehicles approach the end of life and no longer supported. I used to be on the Volt FB page as well and while people loved their cars, they were worried about the dreaded $10-12K HV batt replacement.

https://backthetruckup.com/30000-volt-battery-invoice-is-real/
 
Battery life is measured in cycles, not years or miles. Cycles is comparable to miles, though not exactly the same, as different kinds of driving results in a different amount of miles from one charge/discharge cycle. Years would diverge even farther from cycles as the number of miles a person drives per year can vary significantly.

When we talk about battery life that is the expected time until the battery wears out which means it no longer holds a sufficient charge, typically less than 70% or 75% of it's original capacity. Very few EV batteries have reached that point. Most of the battery replacements have been from battery failures where they fail prematurely, often due to a battery defect. This was more common in early EVs, particularly before they had battery thermal management and more sophisticated battery management systems and when battery manufacturing processes were just ramping up.

According to Musk, the design life of the 2170 battery packs in most Model 3 and Model Y cars is 300,000 to 500,000 miles. The design life of the newer 4680 packs in some Model Ys is 1,000,000 miles. Without premature failure, the batteries should last the life of the car, under average usage, and still be usable in fixed location applications when removed from the car.

flyingcheesehead said:
It's not great either. Heat is what kills lithium batteries. One of the worst EV battery issues was with the early Nissan LEAFs that were in hotter climates, particularly Arizona. A large number of those needed replacement.
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I don't know a lot about the Leaf, but I believe that they did NOT have a battery thermal management system, which later EVs do have, and that contributed to a shorter-than-expected battery life.

Velocity173 said:
Yep. This is the issue I see happening with early gen Model S customers.
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The Model S was always a low-volume car in Elon's master plan. I think that's a formula for high parts prices and limited availability as the car ages for all such cars and isn't specific to EVs or Teslas.
 
tspear said:
Instead of doubting, a little search gives you the following:
https://www.cnet.com/roadshow/news/average-us-car-age-2022-report/
https://www.cars.com/articles/avera...s-hits-record-high-surpasses-12-years-437017/

You will notice that EV owners keep their cars longer (first owner of the car). :)

If you split cars away from light trucks. Cars are now just pushing past 13 years.

Tim
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So, what you're saying, is that 13 years @ 12K miles per year (average annual mileage) is right around 160K miles. Which is right where I said an engine should get, at a minimum. However, in the articles listing that the average age is about 13 years, it doesn't specify if that is largely driven by engine/drivetrain failures or simply people choosing not to own a car with high mileage or outdated tech. Cars are often quite functional when people decide to upgrade rather than sink money on repairs or maintenance (suspension/brakes/HVAC/etc.).
 
Larry in TN said:
Battery life is measured in cycles, not years or miles. Cycles is comparable to miles, though not exactly the same, as different kinds of driving results in a different amount of miles from one charge/discharge cycle. Years would diverge even farther from cycles as the number of miles a person drives per year can vary significantly.

When we talk about battery life that is the expected time until the battery wears out which means it no longer holds a sufficient charge, typically less than 70% or 75% of it's original capacity. Very few EV batteries have reached that point. Most of the battery replacements have been from battery failures where they fail prematurely, often due to a battery defect. This was more common in early EVs, particularly before they had battery thermal management and more sophisticated battery management systems and when battery manufacturing processes were just ramping up.

According to Musk, the design life of the 2170 battery packs in most Model 3 and Model Y cars is 300,000 to 500,000 miles. The design life of the newer 4680 packs in some Model Ys is 1,000,000 miles. Without premature failure, the batteries should last the life of the car, under average usage, and still be usable in fixed location applications when removed from the car.


I don't know a lot about the Leaf, but I believe that they did NOT have a battery thermal management system, which later EVs do have, and that contributed to a shorter-than-expected battery life.


The Model S was always a low-volume car in Elon's master plan. I think that's a formula for high parts prices and limited availability as the car ages for all such cars and isn't specific to EVs or Teslas.
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The Model S is still in production. Customers shouldn’t wait months to get a part. As far as the 2012 Chevy Volt example, sure at 12 years owners shouldn’t expect parts to be readily available. Still doesn’t change the fact that it’s becoming a problem for those owners.

The other issue is all the hype about EVs being so Co2 friendly compared to their ICE counterparts. The EV fanboys fail to mention that once the HV battery fails, you’re back to square one again because the manufacturing of that replacement battery is far more Co2 intensive than an ICE.

Just on FB today and a Model S owner just bought a 2012 Model S with 117K miles and the got the dreaded BMS_u029 code. Then a half dozen comments below about how their batteries have failed recently as well. And while cycles are the primary indicator of life, there are batteries that fail long before a predicted life cycle for other reasons.

https://www.autoevolution.com/news/...-pack-has-moisture-ingress-issues-199073.html
 
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