Salty
Touchdown! Greaser!
The clear answer is that you can’t possibly understand the answer.
The 7 Deadly Sins of Radio Communications
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SkyDog58
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Canis Non Grata
I don’t understand that answer.
I can see a corporate operator calling the FBO on the common traffic frequency (assuming the FBO did not have its own separate frequency), to let them know that they're inbound and need a fast turn, so they can get the gas jockey out sooner (although, at most airports small enough that the FBO does not have its own separate frequency, I doubt it can make much difference anyway).
Making other arrangements, like catering orders and the car rental, is something that should be done sparingly, with due consideration given to other users of the airport and frequency.
As for the "ANY TRAFFIC IN THE AREA…" Calls, I cannot fathom any time when this phrase could be useful; if you make a regular traffic call, anyone who is in a position that, in their judgment, makes them relevant to your operations will pipe up and tell you who they are, and where they are; if they are not in a location they believe relevant, they are unlikely to respond to the "Any traffic…" Call either, because they don't think they are "in the area."
Making other arrangements, like catering orders and the car rental, is something that should be done sparingly, with due consideration given to other users of the airport and frequency.
As for the "ANY TRAFFIC IN THE AREA…" Calls, I cannot fathom any time when this phrase could be useful; if you make a regular traffic call, anyone who is in a position that, in their judgment, makes them relevant to your operations will pipe up and tell you who they are, and where they are; if they are not in a location they believe relevant, they are unlikely to respond to the "Any traffic…" Call either, because they don't think they are "in the area."
Kritchlow
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Okay.... as a corporate pilot departing a quiet pattern, before take off I ask “any traffic in the area please advise”. I know I’m departing to the SW (whatever) and a slow C152 is far from making a call. The aoproaching student has no idea about a jet approaching them at 250 kts (almost 300 mph. Closure rate at more than 1/2 the speed of sound).
I believe me, as a professional pilot, has the responsibility to at least try to learn of traffic in the area and might be in our way.
More examples?
Palmpilot
Touchdown! Greaser!
The people who have ARGUMENTS on CTAF are much worse, IMO. (Fortunately I don't hear that very often.)
Salty
Touchdown! Greaser!
Doesn’t work. Stating you are a jet and departing to the south west accomplishes the same thing, and gives the other pilot useful information, unlike your request devoid of info.
As stated above, the 150 isn’t going to consider himself relevant because you said atitppa. If he didn’t before, he won’t with a vague atitapa, but he might if you tell him something useful.
Try again?
Kritchlow
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Kritchlow
Doesn’t work?
Just how long have you been doing this?
Me: 30 years and 20,000 hours.
Granted, You could be more experienced and have formed other viewpoints.
Salty
Touchdown! Greaser!
Your appeal to authority is once again meaningless. You’ve not shown how providing zero info and only a request is better than simply providing info.
Kritchlow
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Kritchlow
Truly trying to understand what you are asking.
I believe it’s real life examples?
k9medic
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ATP-H, CMEL, CSEL, CFI/CFII Airplanes and Helicopters
Can we add an 8th? It's exhausting to hear "on the go" when somebody is taking off
Kritchlow
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Kritchlow
Well that depends on their previous calls.
Why? Just a courtesy really for anyone else in the patch that works in conjunction with other radio calls. I don’t view it any different than saying the word ‘take-off’.
Palmpilot
Touchdown! Greaser!
I recognize that this probably does not warrant the importance that we're giving it, but here's what I don't get: I'm assuming that your atitapa calls have resulted in replies. How do you know that those same pilots would not have replied to a simple position-and-intentions report?
Hank S
En-Route
I call "departing Runway XX" as I pull across the hold short line. "On the go" works well when advancing the throttle on a touch-n-go, to make sure others know the landing I just made is now becoming a takeoff. But an "on the go" call for a regular takeoff is really unnecessary.
Hank S
En-Route
So again, if there are multiple planes "in the area," how do those pilots know which order they should answer you in? Most likely they will answer together, blocking part of each transmission, and you won't learn anything. Or they won't say anything, each waiting for the other to talk first, and again you learn nothing.
Once that's done, I'll answer and call you stupid for ignoring the FAA's radio advice, and I'll talk r-e-a-l . . . s-l-o-w, so's you kin understand what I'm a-sayin'.
So maybe the CAA / FAA's almost century of experience has taught them more than you've learned in your 20 years? But just carry on with your anti-authority attitude, because you so obviously know everthing. After all, you done told us so.
WannFly
Final Approach
I will add every color I got on the plane in my traffic call as well and all the equipment onboard
I have personally ordered pizza over the unicom frequency, before they started calling it CTAF. When I said they could all have a slice, I was guaranteed the absolute fastest fueling by ramp monkeys you have ever seen... I was one of those monkeys once, and appreciated it.
Grum.Man
En-Route
Sheesh might as well phrase it as "Corporate snob departing More important than Youville. Any traffic in the area BE advised that I am faster thus superior to you so get out of my way."
And for the record, I fly an airplane that is as fast as any jet should be below 10k feet and have never once felt the need to ATITPA. Part of training to fly fast airplanes is planning ahead which includes monitoring CTAF further out to compensate for your faster ground speed.
And for the record, I fly an airplane that is as fast as any jet should be below 10k feet and have never once felt the need to ATITPA. Part of training to fly fast airplanes is planning ahead which includes monitoring CTAF further out to compensate for your faster ground speed.
tspear
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Timothy
The only justification I have read for atippa is single pilot jet/setp operating on IFR in a busy airspace going to a reliever airport. E.g. flying into KGAI where Potomac does not give you long enough pauses to listen to a second frequency.
When I flew the Aerostar and was descending at 180 KIAS toward the field; slowing to an approach speed of 130 KIAS (blue line is 117), I ran into this problem also. Never used atippa but I can see it being useful there because I never had a solid feel for what was in the pattern and depended on ATC to let me know.
Tkm
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When I flew the Aerostar and was descending at 180 KIAS toward the field; slowing to an approach speed of 130 KIAS (blue line is 117), I ran into this problem also. Never used atippa but I can see it being useful there because I never had a solid feel for what was in the pattern and depended on ATC to let me know.
Tkm
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k9medic
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For the same reason that every other word is being discussed in this thread. It's NOT part of the pilot controller glossary and it does not make you a professional.
I fly out of a busy Class D airport that sees a high volume of flight training aircraft coming from other areas to train. Fundamentals of learning...
While we are at it, let's add "with a flash" and "fish finder" to the list.
Mooney Fan
Line Up and Wait
It's hard for us slow guys not to feel like an atitapa call from a fast mover is essentially a call for us to get out of the way
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Nope. The FBO UNICOM station licnese permits them as a ground station to use that frequency. The legitimate aviation station licenses (or in these days the exemption that covers them) allows them to converse on the frequency (which indeed *IS* shared, not just with users of that one airport but other airports around that have the same assigned CTAF).
I don't. I consider it a sign of them being lazy, self-centered louts, who feel they are above following the safe and effective published procedures.
Salty
Touchdown! Greaser!
Agreed.
tspear
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Timothy
Ron,
I posted a scenario in #179.
What would you suggest is an effective answer?
Tim
Salty
Touchdown! Greaser!
Don’t plow into the pattern until you have time to monitor? Adjust your approach to give you more time. Trusting everyone else to get back to you quick enough can’t be the safest way to do things.
At work it is expected to use "over" and "out" in every transmission. Then in the plane I'll accidentally say them to ground or FSS till I revert to pilot speak. So embarrassing.
Also doesn't help that work has you say "who is talking" then "who you're talking to". It's retarded, you always end up saying the first transmission twice because they weren't listening/ expecting your call. The aviation way is much better.
Sac Arrow
Touchdown! Greaser!
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Snorting his way across the USA
Well, yes, I used 'over' and 'out' in military radio transmissions as well.
I think a lot of pilots don't realize that 'say again' is a carryover from military radio procedures where 'repeat' has one and only one meaning - you wish to fire another artillery barrage.
FlySince9
En-Route
I worked 5 years at a busy Jet Center. This stuff should have been set up/coordinated by you or your flight department prior to arriving in the area.... Maybe when you get a little lower you can just confirm the stuff is ready without a giving/requesting a detailed list from the FLvls... If it wasn't pre-coordinated, most of it isn't going to get done in the last 20 minutes anywayze.
Actually, it's not your world to disrupt at your convenience either... Just Say'n...
excuse me while I duck and cover...
Lowflynjack
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Jack Fleetwood
Doesn't drive me nuts as much as the "any traffic in the area" call, but I always laugh when I hear someone say, "Hey Bob, are you up on 22.75?" Why are you calling out the frequency? If he's on this frequency, he'll answer you, otherwise he probably can't hear you! Just makes me laugh, no harm!
falconkidding
Line Up and Wait
Heard a new one from a gulfstream at khbg. "Atitppa this includes those aircraft in the area with radios not talking." Felt like answering him even though im 100miles to the SE.
Palmpilot
Touchdown! Greaser!
Speaking of artillery barrages, that's what this thread is beginning to sound like!
Kritchlow
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Kritchlow
Perhaps you should read a bit slower.
As I said, sometime it’s aporopriate, and sometime it’s not.
Kritchlow
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I don’t. That said, there are times I find the call beneficial to help give me the big picture of where traffic may be.
I do understand the limitations, and I also understand the downside of the call.
ETA: Now that I’m out of corporate aviation I rarely, if ever, go to uncontrolled airports (yes, I know... non towered airports). ATITPPA is a thing of the past for me.
tspear
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Timothy
No option when in the SFRA, under most class Bravos.
Then when you leave the major metro areas and head further out with marginal weather you get the following. I have been headed to an airport in the smoky mountains with traffic in pattern, class G airspace, a Citation in trail, and marginal weather.
Tim
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Hank S
En-Route
So have I. And I have yet to ever ask for "any traffic in the area" to advise me of anything . . . Just made my normal calls starting 10 miles out, and was listening before then. It's not hard to do--one mouth, two ears, etc.
If the field is VFR, nothing in the SFRA or FRZ procedures bars you from using a traffic pattern or normal traffic callouts.
If the field is IFR, there shouldn't be any traffic to worry about much.
I was one of the first to get FRZ clearance (I was based at VKX on 9/11). Don't make excuses about what you can and can't do.
I remember years ago someone bizjet making an initial call and hearing someone snidely say "I suppose you're going to make a straight in". He responded that he was intending to fly a proper procedure and was just making the courteous and recommended calls.
If the field is IFR, there shouldn't be any traffic to worry about much.
I was one of the first to get FRZ clearance (I was based at VKX on 9/11). Don't make excuses about what you can and can't do.
I remember years ago someone bizjet making an initial call and hearing someone snidely say "I suppose you're going to make a straight in". He responded that he was intending to fly a proper procedure and was just making the courteous and recommended calls.
Tantalum
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San_Diego_Pilot
The best part with all this bickering is that for all the radio calls being made, there is nothing really stopping someone from not even using the radio.. or actually listening to the call outs.. you could say "anyone in the pattern, please advise" or "entering 45 left downing rwy 27" and the guy flying into rwy 9 with a tailwind because it's closer to his hanger doesn't even have a radio!
^which, these airports are so close, and OKB is even closer to the water... but is uncontrolled.. so it seems like many people quasi-legally scud run into OKB *kind of* in the clouds because they can get away with it where at towered CRQ they cannot
^the skydiving planes there also find very clever ways to get around the marine layer there. No way those guys are making the legal VFR minimums on cloudy days
One would THINK. But Oceanside here gets a suspicious amount of VFR traffic spending the night when CRQ goes IFR. The notes in our schedule master say something to the effect of "left plane at Oceanside, will grab in the morning, CRQ IFR"
^which, these airports are so close, and OKB is even closer to the water... but is uncontrolled.. so it seems like many people quasi-legally scud run into OKB *kind of* in the clouds because they can get away with it where at towered CRQ they cannot
^the skydiving planes there also find very clever ways to get around the marine layer there. No way those guys are making the legal VFR minimums on cloudy days
One skydiver or a lonesome scudrunner can be dealt with. The problem is an IFR straight in with six in the pattern and two waiting to go on the ground.
KaiGywer
Line Up and Wait
Please don't take the runway. The next plane needs it.
My local Class D shuts down at night and it can be funny listening to the airline 737 making a CTAF call since they do it so rarely.