So does everyone B.S. their bill of sale?

SixPapaCharlie

SixPapaCharlie

May the force be with you
Joined
Aug 8, 2013
Messages
16,068
Display Name
Display name:
Sixer
I did a record request on a few different planes that I vetted.
Today one came back and it had changed hands maybe 6 times over the years.

Every single bill of sale says something lke
"for and in consideration of $ 1.00 the undersigned owner of the full legal and beneficial title of the aircraft described as follows"

Most are $1 or $1 and OVC
A couple are $1000 and one is $3000

So what is this about?
 
Avoiding the tax man. Go to the courthouse and look up the deed to your house. You probably bought it for $10 and OVC.
 
I just bought a plane and did this exact thing. Saw what they were doing before and figured what the heck, might as well keep it going.
 
Example, Did this guy in 1989 claim to buy it for $1,000?


Capture.PNG
 
Like stated above it's simply for privacy so no one in the future will know what you paid for it.

You'll still pay taxes on what you actually bought it for.
 
SixPapaCharlie said:
So you pay no taxes?
Click to expand...

Sales taxes. Unless the auditors find the deposits. Which they will. Unless the deal was cash. And that's still just a good audit away on income vs spending unless someone is hiding it under their mattress.

Which is also why anything over a certain dollar amount withdrawn in cash needs extra paperwork nowadays sent off to whomever under the auspices of stopping drug trafficking and organized crime.

Being in possession of large amounts of cash is seen today as de facto evidence of crime.

Numerous criminals have gone to prison for tax evasion and not their alleged "real" crimes.
 
I am wiring my guy money but I offered to bring it to him in a comical bag with a giant dollar sign on the side of it.
He declined.
 
SixPapaCharlie said:
I am wiring my guy money but I offered to bring it to him in a comical bag with a giant dollar sign on the side of it.
He declined.
Click to expand...

A friend joked that he wanted to be paid in cash when I bought his truck. I filled out all the anti-drug lord anti-terrorism stuff at the bank and then the teller proceeded to count out a lot of one hundred dollar bills on the counter in front of everyone in the bank, loudly.

I was pretty alert while walking to my truck with that envelope in my breast pocket of my jacket.

I locked the cash up in the safe and the next time it came out was taking it directly to him at his workplace. I made sure nobody else knew he was carrying that much cash, unlike the utterly retarded bank teller.
 
Sales tax: every state has different rules. \
In Texas, some will pay tax on a plane, some won't depending on the circumstances.

I know that some states are 'non-disclosure states' when it comes to property tax (in Texas you mostly don't have to reveal the purchase price of your house despite the form the county sends around trying to bait you) - maybe the same applies to airplanes and the state.
 
cowman said:
Possessing any significant amount of cash is proof of a crime.

I don't know how anyone can read that and not be horrified at where our legal system has gone...l
Click to expand...
Yep. Do a little research on asset forfeiture. It will make you go buy some more freedom supplies.
 
I've bought a few cars, farm machinery, and other things found on craigslist with significant amounts of cash. It's the standard for these kinds of trades since it's pretty hard to scam someone with cash.

Nobody knows I have it, it would be either secured on my person or locked and hidden in the car. With robbery being rare around these parts, I might actually have more to worry about from overzealous law enforcement than criminals. That's just not right, this asset forfeiture has got to go.

Apologies for the thread hijack.
 
cowman said:
I've bought a few cars, farm machinery, and other things found on craigslist with significant amounts of cash. It's the standard for these kinds of trades since it's pretty hard to scam someone with cash.

Nobody knows I have it, it would be either secured on my person or locked and hidden in the car. With robbery being rare around these parts, I might actually have more to worry about from overzealous law enforcement than criminals. That's just not right, this asset forfeiture has got to go.

Apologies for the thread hijack.
Click to expand...
Anecdote, perhaps fuzzy on exact details, but as I recall, two guys with $25K in cash were driving some distance to buy restaurant equipment from a place that was shutting down. Traffic stop, cash confiscated, and after a long fight, they got half back. Apparently happens all the time - basically legal robbery by LE, and a serious source of income for 'em. . .some pushback began, I think, some pendulum swing the other way now. . .
 
Bryan: check FB Messenger.
 
cowman said:
Possessing any significant amount of cash is proof of a crime.

I don't know how anyone can read that and not be horrified at where our legal system has gone...l
Click to expand...

 
Let'sgoflying! said:
oh, sir! you forgot your target!
Click to expand...

Yeah, no kidding. Between needing three of them
to figure out the anti-terrorism stuff and then the last one counting like it was a Sesame Street episode, I was thinking about letting the branch manager know I was somewhat displeased with their inability to be discreet. But I never got around to it.

Interestingly, if you have an account there with a big enough balance, they were quite happy to tell me over the phone that day without any identification other than the account info, whether they had that much cash on hand for a cash withdrawal. They don't always, and the main number tells you they'll just transfer you to the closest branch and you can ask... if they don't have it, you can call back and they'll try the next closest branch.

Criminals I know are pretty stupid, but so is answering the phone and when asked if you have lots of cash at a small branch one day, telling the truth about it. Haha.

Great customer service though. Good thing I wasn't a bank robber with someone else's account information. LOL. I bet you could also get info on multiple close by branches without triggering any questions at the main number either, since they're the ones who told you to call them back if the branch says they're no-go on the cash.

Weirdest conversations ever.

"So um, I'm supposed to call and ask if you have enough cash to make a cash withdrawal of X?"

And I swear they just yelled across the office... "Hey Bob, can we do a withdrawal of $X today?"

Probably imagined a bit in my head but it was still a very weird day.

If any friends joke they want cash for a vehicle that expensive (and it wasn't hideously expensive but it was a little way into the five figures range) ever again... I'll be quick to say "Oh hell no... I'll go get you a nice cashier's check and YOU can deal with converting that to cash if you want cash..."

Funny thing was, he joked he wanted it in "unmarked $20 bills". I didn't even attempt that... that would have been insanity.

Interesting thing was, $100 bills for that still wasn't a very physically thick stack. Which kinda put those drug deal confiscation videos where you see huge stacks of confiscated $100s in perspective. That's a LOT of money.
 
denverpilot said:
Criminals I know are pretty stupid, but so is answering the phone and when asked if you have lots of cash at a small branch one day, telling the truth about it. Haha.
Click to expand...

First, it's insured. Second, if it were me my attitude would be "it's not my money". Third, no policy = no problem. Fourth, bank robbers usually get caught eventually.
 
asicer said:
First, it's insured. Second, if it were me my attitude would be "it's not my money". Third, no policy = no problem.
Click to expand...

Yeah, I'm sure working there, they develop a different sense for cash than most of us do.

It's just the dirty stuff they have to count in the drawer that was in some stripper's underwear the night before. LOL.
 
denverpilot said:
Yeah, I'm sure working there, they develop a different sense for cash than most of us do.

It's just the dirty stuff they have to count in the drawer that was in some stripper's underwear the night before. LOL.
Click to expand...

Maybe that's why they counted out $100 bills instead of $5 bills. :p
 
denverpilot said:
Interesting thing was, $100 bills for that still wasn't a very physically thick stack. Which kinda put those drug deal confiscation videos where you see huge stacks of confiscated $100s in perspective. That's a LOT of money.
Click to expand...

It takes around 22 pounds of hundred dollar bills to equal one million dollars IIRC. :D

This is the approximately $205 million that was found in the house of Zhenli le Gon, a methamphetamine manufacturer.

YeGon_millions.jpg
 
Last edited:
I have never given second thought to placing the amount I purchased the airplane in the "amount" line of the bill of sale. I sincerely don't know what's the cultural hangup people have towards such simpleton artifact of living. Sure, advertising one's actual liquid household balance-in-possession could be a personal security risk, but speaking plainly about one conveyance or property as a one-off? Meh.

As to negotiation leverage towards future sale because the buyer knows what I paid for it? I'm not swayed by that position/argument in the least. Things are only worth what one party is willing to sell, and the other buy/borrow for. The psychology and emotional hangups over buyers wanting to feel as though they "s tole" something from a seller is not a particular concern of mine. My personal motivations are already baked into the asking price, so the concern is moot. We either agree on a price or we don't. Telling me you know how much I paid for it doesn't change my calculus.
 
It's the seller that fills out the bill of sale, why would they risk legal problems of falsifying the BOS?
 
teejayevans said:
It's the seller that fills out the bill of sale, why would they risk legal problems of falsifying the BOS?
Click to expand...

What would be their legal problem?
 
no worries....the tax man will get his due. :yes:

In my state, if you choose to pay tax on less than blue book....you will provide a signed bill of sale.
 
teejayevans said:
It's the seller that fills out the bill of sale, why would they risk legal problems of falsifying the BOS?
Click to expand...
What legal problems? What falsification? I'm really curious what you imagine are the serious consequences of writing, in effect, "I choose not to disclose the full purchase price on a public document if I am not required to." That is quite literally all it means in this context.

if you think it's some weird aviation thing, it's not. The phrase, "$1 and other valuable consideration" (with some variations) has been used for centuries. It's based on a ancient legal formality - concerns that a promise without some kind of stated exchange of value ("consideration") is unenforceable. Its more modern incarnation is still as a statement of "some" value (often used in family transfers if real estate), but more to avoid disclosing the financial details of a transaction on a public document if you are not required to do so.

The aircraft bill of sale is a formality necessary to transfer title. An amount is on the form to show the parties agree there has been the ancient exchange of value. It doesn't have to represent the actual deal between the parties. It might mean $10 Million and if might mean a gift from parent to child, both of which might have to be disclosed to someone else, but not to the FAA when transferring title.

It's a choice. Some choose to enter the full dollar amount amount to the penny. Others choose this common phrase. Either way, it's meaningless beyond informed personal preference.
 
Last edited:
midlifeflyer said:
What legal problems? What falsification? I'm really curious what you imagine are the serious consequences of writing, in effect, "I choose not to disclose the full purchase price on a public document if I am not required to." That is quite literally all it means in this context.

if you think it's some weird aviation thing, it's not. The phrase, "$1 and other valuable consideration" (with some variations) has been used for centuries. It's based on a ancient legal formality - concerns that a promise without some kind of stated exchange of value ("consideration") is unenforceable. Its more modern incarnation is still as a statement of "some" value (often used in family transfers if real estate), but more to avoid disclosing the financial details of a transaction on a public document if you are not required to do so.

The aircraft bill of sale is a formality necessary to transfer title. An amount is on the form to show the parties agree there has been the ancient exchange of value. It doesn't have to represent the actual deal between the parties. It might mean $10 Million and if might mean a gift from parent to child, both of which might have to be disclosed to someone else, but not to the FAA when transferring title.

It's a choice. Some choose to enter the full dollar amount amount to the penny. Others choose this common phrase. Either way, it's meaningless beyond informed personal preference.
Click to expand...

Thanks for the explanation. I never thought about it before. How is the bill of sale a "public" document? I didn't think anyone saw it other than the buyer and seller and whatever government petty bureaucrat wants to see it. Am I forgetting something?
 
Rushie said:
Thanks for the explanation. I never thought about it before. How is the bill of sale a "public" document? I didn't think anyone saw it other than the buyer and seller and whatever government petty bureaucrat wants to see it. Am I forgetting something?
Click to expand...

Its public, pay $5 and you can get every bill of sale for the history of an aircraft

http://aircraft.faa.gov/e.gov/nd/
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top