Is this PIC time or no?

CC268

CC268

Final Approach
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CC268
Hey guys,

Just went up this morning with my instructor as I haven't been up since I got my PPL. I wanted to make sure I was still safe so we flew from Scottsdale over to Mesa Gateway and then Falcon...then had him hop out and I did a few touch and goes at Scottsdale - my landings were beautiful!

Anyways...can I count the trip as PIC time or no? I wasn't sure since my instructor was with me?
 
was there any mention of your CFI being PIC of that flight? if not, you were PIC.
 
eman1200 said:
was there any mention of your CFI being PIC of that flight? if not, you were PIC.
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Irrelevant. The question was about logging PIC.

The correct questions are, were you the sole manipulator of the controls, and were you rated for the aircraft? See 14 CFR 61.51(e).
 
MAKG1 said:
Irrelevant. The question was about logging PIC.

The correct questions are, were you the sole manipulator of the controls, and were you rated for the aircraft? See 14 CFR 61.51(e).
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NOT irrelevant. Although I shouldn't be using AOPA as a source:

Before we get started, we must define pilot in command. The PIC is, by Federal Aviation Regulations (FARs), responsible for the safe operation of the flight (FAR 1.1, 91.3). At any given time, there can only be one acting PIC on a flight, no matter how many pilots are on board the aircraft. To legally act as PIC, a private, commercial, and airline transport pilot must have a current medical certificate and have all required endorsements, ratings, and recency of experience for the type of aircraft being flown and the flight conditions under which the flight is conducted (FAR 61.3, 61.31, 61.56, 61.57). Before a flight is initiated, an agreement should be made to determine who is to be acting as PIC.

and I pretty much knew you'd be the one to immediately shoot down my response.
 
Once you're rated in the aircraft, you should always be logging PIC when you're with an instructor unless for some odd reason you specifically make him PIC. It would be a waste of perfectly legitimate hours to not do so.
 
eman1200 said:
Before a flight is initiated, an agreement should be made to determine who is to be acting as PIC.
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What MAKG said still stands though. The OP didn't ask if HE was PIC. He asked if IT was PIC. It was PIC no matter how you look at it. He may not have been the PIC however.
 
eman1200 said:
NOT irrelevant. Although I shouldn't be using AOPA as a source:

Before we get started, we must define pilot in command. The PIC is, by Federal Aviation Regulations (FARs), responsible for the safe operation of the flight (FAR 1.1, 91.3). At any given time, there can only be one acting PIC on a flight, no matter how many pilots are on board the aircraft. To legally act as PIC, a private, commercial, and airline transport pilot must have a current medical certificate and have all required endorsements, ratings, and recency of experience for the type of aircraft being flown and the flight conditions under which the flight is conducted (FAR 61.3, 61.31, 61.56, 61.57). Before a flight is initiated, an agreement should be made to determine who is to be acting as PIC.

and I pretty much knew you'd be the one to immediately shoot down my response.
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Yes it IS irrelevant.

Whether it counts as PIC and whether the pilot acts as PIC are not the same question. Not even close, actually.

The question was about logging. You gave the wrong answer.

Something else that trips people up is that "rated" does not depend on endorsements. Only category and class, plus type if a type rating is required. So an ASEL pilot can't log PIC time in a twin or a seaplane, but he can log PIC time in a retract even without the complex endorsement. Though without that endorsement, someone else must ACT as PIC, usually an instructor. There are similar issues for logging PIC during instrument training in actual IMC. Yes, it's legal provided the acting PIC is instrument rated and current.

A fun case is logging of PIC time during a checkride. You aren't rated, but you also aren't the sole occupant. Yet, the examiner doesn't normally act as PIC.
 
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NJP_MAN said:
What MAKG said still stands though. The OP didn't ask if HE was PIC. He asked if IT was PIC. It was PIC no matter how you look at it. He may not have been the PIC however.
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yup, I never said what he said wasn't accurate. and I don't know what you mean by "IT being pic". what is "IT" ?
 
Okay thanks I texted my instructor and he said the same.
 
You were the sole manipulator of the plane, so yes, log as PIC.
 
It's all PIC time for you,unless you stated that the instructor was the PIC for any of the trip.
 
frfly172 said:
It's all PIC time for you,unless you stated that the instructor was the PIC for any of the trip.
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It's still PIC unless the instructor flys the airplane as well as acts as PIC. When I fly with an instructor they are always PIC. This way we all log PIC.
 
mscard88 said:
"It" was a character on the B&W TV series 'The Adams Family". Probably before your time. :D
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IT was also the main villain in A Wrinkle In Time by Madeline L'Engle. Still not PIC.

As has been pointed out there is a difference between acting as PIC and logging PIC. Acting as PIC makes you responsible for the flight whether you ever touch the controls or not. You may log PIC if you meet the conditions outlined in @EdFred's excellent flow chart which I can't find right this minute. But's in on here somewhere...
 
I got rid of it of my personal web repository because it wasn't being referenced before asking the question that's been asked and answered a bazillion times, would not be made a into a sticky by the **** *** management council (@jason @jesse @TangoWhiskey @SCCutler @AdamZ @Everskyward @Greg Bockelman ) along with the all things answered so you never have to ask about anything PIC again thread. So **** it, people can figure out the **** for themselves - and most likely get it wrong.
 
NJP_MAN said:
It's still PIC unless the instructor flys the airplane as well as acts as PIC. When I fly with an instructor they are always PIC. This way we all log PIC.
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No need to make them PIC for both of you to log it.
 
EdFred said:
I got rid of it of my personal web repository because it wasn't being referenced before asking the question that's been asked and answered a bazillion times, would not be made a into a sticky by the **** *** management council (@jason @jesse @TangoWhiskey @SCCutler @AdamZ @Everskyward @Greg Bockelman ) along with the all things answered so you never have to ask about anything PIC again thread. So **** it, people can figure out the **** for themselves - and most likely get it wrong.
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Well, don't sugar coat it!

Anyway, I liked it...
 
EdFred said:
No need to make them PIC for both of you to log it.
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Well they need to know they are "instructing" me. Thats what I meant by making them PIC. Otherwise they are just a passenger.
 
NJP_MAN said:
Well they need to know they are "instructing" me. Thats what I meant by making them PIC. Otherwise they are just a passenger.
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In that case, yes. But a CFI without a current medical can't be PIC, but can still log it.
 
@EdFred I really liked the flowchart too. I thought one part of it was wrong and argued with you about it, but came to understand that I was wrong. It seems like I wasn't the only one that wanted to argue about your chart.
 
EdFred said:
I got rid of it of my personal web repository because it wasn't being referenced before asking the question that's been asked and answered a bazillion times, would not be made a into a sticky by the **** *** management council (@jason @jesse @TangoWhiskey @SCCutler @AdamZ @Everskyward @Greg Bockelman ) along with the all things answered so you never have to ask about anything PIC again thread. So **** it, people can figure out the **** for themselves - and most likely get it wrong.
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Please, Tell us how you really feel? :)
 
mscard88 said:
"It" was a character on the B&W TV series 'The Adams Family". Probably before your time. :D
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Cousin Itt... the correct spelling...spoke with a slightly British accent.

Addams-Family-Cousin-Itt-addams-family-5684028-356-288.jpg


But he was never PIC....
 
Zeldman said:
Cousin Itt... the correct spelling...spoke with a slightly British accent.

Addams-Family-Cousin-Itt-addams-family-5684028-356-288.jpg


But he was never PIC....
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Other than needing a trim, not trim :D, you sure Itt wasn't a decorated fighter pilot and had to have had some PIC time....I mean he looks like Joe Cool pilot with those shades....sure he shot down some Migs somewhere...
 
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Cajun_Flyer said:
Yes.
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Now just wait a dog-gone minute, CF. Where in the FARs does it permit you to use a one-syllable answer just 'cause you are right? Where, he asks again. :confused: This thread was good for 20 pages at least until you jumped in and tried to short stop it... :rolleyes:

-Skip
 
Sigh.


....why do we make things so difficult, log it all as PIC
 
Its your logbook. Log it how ever you want.
 
Skip Miller said:
Now just wait a dog-gone minute, CF. Where in the FARs does it permit you to use a one-syllable answer just 'cause you are right? Where, he asks again. :confused: This thread was good for 20 pages at least until you jumped in and tried to short stop it... :rolleyes:

-Skip
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FAR 0.1, Page iii, Section 9.364, Luke 12:46-58

Besides, I've been told once or twice both here and IRL that I tend to be long-winded o_O I'm trying to be a changed woman.
 
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Greg Bockelman said:
Sigh.
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Care to explain?

He's rated in the aircraft. So we know that he can BE PIC even with the instructor giving him instruction. He has the OPTION to tell the CFI, hey, I want you to be PIC today, but that's not what we're talking about.

<redacted because I'm an idiot>

"Sole manipulator" is completely irrelevant in the situation described by the OP.
 
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cheap weenie said:
Care to explain?

He's rated in the aircraft. So we know that he can BE PIC even with the instructor giving him instruction. He has the OPTION to tell the CFI, hey, I want you to be PIC today, but that's not what we're talking about.

As for my statement, consider this: Let's say I know a CFI who's well known for good short field technique. So I ask him to come fly in my plane with me, and demonstrate his famous technique. We do a few laps around the pattern, and he does every bit of the flying. I never touch the controls. I would STILL legitimately log PIC. Doing that flight in my aircraft, the fact that he was doing all the flying wouldn't cause me to give up my responsibility over and control of the flight. He's flying, but it's my show.

"Sole manipulator" is completely irrelevant in the situation described by the OP.
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As others have mentioned, you seem to be confusing being/acting PIC with logging PIC. In your case here, you might be the PIC, but you can't log it as PIC if you are not the sole manipulator of the controls.
 
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