Question on Pre-buy on Experimental and Amatuer Built

AggieMike88

AggieMike88

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The original "I don't know it all" of aviation.
Pre-buys on C, P, M, and B aircraft are common occurrences and finding A&P's to conduct the inspections are easy to find. Also working with the seller to fix correctable issues is an easy to understand thing.


But how different is it when the aircraft of your desire is something like an RV or other EAB aircraft? Are there easy to find experts on the airframe that can find the good and bad on an aircraft that an "average joe" built?

And how understanding are the sellers when addressing flaws that have a significant cost to bring back to standard?


Seeing Tim's RV-8a when he had it and the RV-10 he has now (the same one he brought to Gastons) and Geico's RV-8 has me adding such aircraft to my future wish list.


Another question.... say I had one, and then obtained a new bit of kit that I am capable of installing myself. Once that is done, what paperwork and inspection requirements need doing to be legal?
 
AggieMike88 said:
Another question.... say I had one, and then obtained a new bit of kit that I am capable of installing myself. Once that is done, what paperwork and inspection requirements need doing to be legal?
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If you install a different model engine or prop you'll need to fly off some test hours again like when it was newly-built. Aside from that you or anyone else including your child or dog, can install or modify anything you want. The only thing you need a piece of paper for is the (annual) condition inspection. For that you either need an A&P or the repairman's certificate for that SN aircraft.
 
That is the issue, and with an RV, you shouldn't have trouble finding someone who know the type extremely well to do the inspection. With less well know types, it's not as simple, you need to know someone whose overall knowledge is sufficient to be able to critically judge what they are seeing, and have the aviation knowledge to understand the affects and ramifications of what they are seeing. I find evaluating the owner/builder to be of as much value as evaluating the airplane with regards to determining build quality.
 
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You gonna fly it? You gonna maintain it? You gonna inspect it yerself.

(OK, one should also involve the A&P that you expect to use for the condition inspections since he/she/it would be expected to sign on the dotted line each year. And, the first condition inspection is not the time to hear "YGTBFSM")
 
For Vans RV's there are plenty of knowledgeable folks out there. Just join the Vansairforce forum and ask.

For major modifications such as a prop change you will typically have a 5 hour reversion to phase 1 local flight testing then some specific verbage to enter in the logbook and you may fly as before.

Experimentals will require an annual condition inspection which may be done by either the builder or any A&P (need not have IA).
 
FORANE said:
For major modifications such as a prop change you will typically have a 5 hour reversion to phase 1 local flight testing then some specific verbage to enter in the logbook and you may fly as before.
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A lot depends on when your operating limitations were written - there have been significant changes over the years.
 
AggieMike88 said:
Another question.... say I had one, and then obtained a new bit of kit that I am capable of installing myself. Once that is done, what paperwork and inspection requirements need doing to be legal?
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You can do any maintenance and / or modifications you wish. Documentation requirements are pretty slim, but the criteria I use on my 'purchased flying' RV is 1) What documentation and paperwork would I like to see as a buyer of said airplane, and 2) what does my mechanic need to see at the condition inspection.

Personally, number 1 is the overriding guidance, as my mechanic only slightly tongue-in-cheek says "Hell, you have to fly the thing, if it's good enough for you . . ."
 
Mike,
As you know I purchased both my RV's, due to the amount of time required to assemble the air frame. Both aircraft I used a experienced builder / A&P to do the pre-buy, any issues they found were addressed and corrected before purchase. Keep in mind although they are experimental the builder is following a strict set of instructions that spell out every move made, so for the most part you wont find the air frames with a large variance in construction. It's hard to find a aircraft that has exactly what you are looking for, and the great thing about experimental you can change it to suit your needs and wants. Like someone else stated you keep the same set of log books that you would in a certified aircraft its just I can make any changes and make my own log book entries without sign off of an A&P. I am required to have a condition inspection once a year by a A&P, which most follow a similar check list just like you would on a certified aircraft. If you hang out on the local forum and learn the world of experimental you will find out pretty quick that there is a ton of support in the area including the best avionics shop at your home airport. Any local pre-buys you have two ace A&P's here at Northwest.
Anything I can do to answer questions just let me know.
Tim
 
FORANE said:
Experimentals will require an annual condition inspection which may be done by either the builder or any A&P (need not have IA).
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Only as long as the builder is the owner AND has gotten the repairman certificate from the FAA (it's not automatic) - once the plane is sold the builder no longer has repairman certificate authority for that aircraft, and an A&P is required.
 
airguy said:
Only as long as the builder is the owner AND has gotten the repairman certificate from the FAA (it's not automatic) - once the plane is sold the builder no longer has repairman certificate authority for that aircraft, and an A&P is required.
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The repairman's certificate on that aircraft lasts for the lifetime of the holder of the certificate. In other words, any subsequent owner may have the Repairman (essentially the builder) conduct the condition inspection if the Repairman can be enticed to do so. Most can't be.
 
airguy said:
Only as long as the builder is the owner AND has gotten the repairman certificate from the FAA (it's not automatic) - once the plane is sold the builder no longer has repairman certificate authority for that aircraft, and an A&P is required.
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I spoke with an FAA inspector on this at a meeting a few weeks ago. A non builder owner can be issued a repairman certificate if they disassemble and reassemble enough of the aircraft (you start square 1 on the test phase again). Exactly how much and what assemblies he said would be an issue of negotiation on each application, but with some probing he admitted that the process could be fulfilled simultaneously with a very thorough tear down and condition inspection and wouldn't necessitate drilling and driving rivets or doing lay up level reconstruction. So if one was really wanting to get the certificate, it appears there is a viable avenue.
 
The OP raises some good issues, since purchasing an amateur built aircraft has some extra gotchas that certificated aircraft lack. When purchasing an aircraft built at a factory you simply examine issues related to maintenance and wear. To purchase an experimental aircraft you must also evaluate the actual fabrication of the ship, which is a different issue and can't be addressed by every pilot.

Not that the latter issues are insurmountable, but they do have to be surmounted to make a wise decision.
 
kyleb said:
The repairman's certificate on that aircraft lasts for the lifetime of the holder of the certificate. In other words, any subsequent owner may have the Repairman (essentially the builder) conduct the condition inspection if the Repairman can be enticed to do so. Most can't be.
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Correct. I received my repairman's certificate a couple of weeks ago for my RV-10 and it's tied to that specific airframe by serial number, not to the actual owner.

Interestingly enough, the repairman's certificate for an E-LSA aircraft, unlike E-AB, is not limited to a single airframe. You take the course and you can do any of a specific model, say RV -12 for example. I assume that's because E-LSAs have to conform to the original S-LSA on which the E-LSAs are based so there's no uniqueness prior to certification that you'll find for a given model in the E-AB world.
 
tsts4 said:
I assume that's because E-LSAs have to conform to the original S-LSA on which the E-LSAs are based...
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No they don't. Once taken to Experimental status, pretty much anything goes, as long as the alteration does not take the plane out of LSA limitations. Anyone can perform maintenance on and alterations to them with no certificate required.

It's the LSRM-I that is issued to an owner of an E-LSA, and that's only needed to perform the Annual Condition Inspection on an E-LSA that that person owns.
 
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FastEddieB said:
No they don't. Once taken to Experimental status, pretty much anything goes, as long as the alteration does not take the plane out of LSA limitations.
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Yes they do prior to certification-- it has to match. After certification you can alter it as long as any alterations don't exceed LSA parameters.
 
Henning said:
I spoke with an FAA inspector on this at a meeting a few weeks ago. A non builder owner can be issued a repairman certificate if they disassemble and reassemble enough of the aircraft (you start square 1 on the test phase again). Exactly how much and what assemblies he said would be an issue of negotiation on each application, but with some probing he admitted that the process could be fulfilled simultaneously with a very thorough tear down and condition inspection and wouldn't necessitate drilling and driving rivets or doing lay up level reconstruction. So if one was really wanting to get the certificate, it appears there is a viable avenue.
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To get a repairman certificate the previous owner would have to deregister the airplane and the new owner would have to prove he did 51% of the build. In other words he would have to disassemble it past the 51% and reassemble not using any of the pre fabricated parts. Pretty much impossible to do (legally).
 
yakdriver said:
To get a repairman certificate the previous owner would have to deregister the airplane and the new owner would have to prove he did 51% of the build. In other words he would have to disassemble it past the 51% and reassemble not using any of the pre fabricated parts. Pretty much impossible to do (legally).
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Well I have no insight on a non-builder getting a repairman's certificate, but what I do know is the 51% rule (aka the major portion rule) has absolutely nothing to do with issuance of a repairman's certificate. Group builds happen all the time where one member of the group gets the cert. When you apply for the cert no where is the percentage of the build performed by the apllicant annotated on the application or discussed with the FSDO

The 51% rule applies only to airworthiness certification for the aircraft under the E-AB category.
 
Hey Mike, if you're looking at an RV you're in the right spot. Go over to Hicks and get in contact with Jay Pratt. He lives there in his hanger. He is probably the foremost expert on RV's in Texas and one of the best in the country. He's built several for himself, has built several for others, and rents hanger/shop/tools for still others to build with his assistance. And he'll know exactly what to look for in a pre-buy situation.

In fact, if it's even on the wish list, go over and meet Jay and let him show you around. It's interesting to see four or five RV's in various stages of construction. You'll learn more in an hour with him... super friendly guy as well.
 
yakdriver said:
To get a repairman certificate the previous owner would have to deregister the airplane and the new owner would have to prove he did 51% of the build. In other words he would have to disassemble it past the 51% and reassemble not using any of the pre fabricated parts. Pretty much impossible to do (legally).
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I don't think that's completely accurate or has a complete consensus at the FSDO. There is no requirement for a person to do 51% of the build, that number applies to being able to apply a kit instead of a scratch build. Also it's not 51% of the work, it's 51% of the tasks.
 
tsts4 said:
...
Interestingly enough, the repairman's certificate for an E-LSA aircraft, unlike E-AB, is not limited to a single airframe. You take the course and you can do any of a specific model, say RV -12 for example. I assume that's because E-LSAs have to conform to the original S-LSA on which the E-LSAs are based so there's no uniqueness prior to certification that you'll find for a given model in the E-AB world.
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That's not exactly correct.
There are two courses that someone can/must take:

A 16 hour course is for a builder/owner to obtain a repairman certificate with Inspection Authority over HIS OWN SINGLE AIRCRAFT.
Unlike an E-A/B builder, his repairman certificate is not "automatic" -- he has to go to school to be certified. He can make mods and repairs, but not do the annual condition inspection without the certification --- and he can do that ONLY on HIS airplane (after his FSDO records the certificate).

The second course is a 120 course that allows the graduate to do repair and certification/condition inspection on ANY LSA.
 
If you look at Form 8000-38 it spells out what tasks need to be done by the builder. Anything pre built by the previous owner could be considered commercial assistance. Also you need documentation that you actually did the tasks (pictures etc). You have to show receipts and it the case of a Vans airplane a bill of sale for the kit to you. Any DAR or FAA inspector will ask questions of the builder to determine if he actually built the airplane. You will not get away with just taking it apart and doing a condition inspection. As for the opinion of one FSDO you have to realize each one is like a little fifedom and one guys opinion won't hold water in another district. I have been through this process several times both as the builder (I have two repairman certificates one for a RV7 and one for a Backcountry Supercub) and as commercial assistance with 4 other planes I helped build. I have been present at all the inspections with three different DARs and one FAA inspector and there is no way they would issue an airworthiness to someone who assembled a previously flying experimental. Don

http://www.zenithair.com/stolch750/data/faa-8000-38.pdf
http://www.faa.gov/documentlibrary/media/order/8130.2f ch 4.pdf
 
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yakdriver said:
To get a repairman certificate the previous owner would have to deregister the airplane and the new owner would have to prove he did 51% of the build. In other words he would have to disassemble it past the 51% and reassemble not using any of the pre fabricated parts. Pretty much impossible to do (legally).
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yup.....one tickie....one bird.:yes:
 
Henning said:
I don't think that's completely accurate or has a complete consensus at the FSDO. There is no requirement for a person to do 51% of the build, that number applies to being able to apply a kit instead of a scratch build. Also it's not 51% of the work, it's 51% of the tasks.
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that is wrong....the ticket goes with an airframe (data plate)....and only one per airframe is given....and yes, they must be the primary builder.:rolleyes:
 
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oldShar said:
That's not exactly correct.
There are two courses that someone can/must take:

A 16 hour course is for a builder/owner to obtain a repairman certificate with Inspection Authority over HIS OWN SINGLE AIRCRAFT.
Unlike an E-A/B builder, his repairman certificate is not "automatic" -- he has to go to school to be certified. He can make mods and repairs, but not do the annual condition inspection without the certification --- and he can do that ONLY on HIS airplane (after his FSDO records the certificate).

The second course is a 120 course that allows the graduate to do repair and certification/condition inspection on ANY LSA.
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an eab repairman cert is not automatic. you must apply for it and show the examiner through builder logs ect that you have built the aircraft and that you meet the regs to be issued the repairman cert. I do not hold a repairman cert for my aircraft as I am an a&p so I never felt the need to apply for it.

bob
 
unsafervguy said:
an eab repairman cert is not automatic. you must apply for it and show the examiner through builder logs ect that you have built the aircraft and that you meet the regs to be issued the repairman cert. I do not hold a repairman cert for my aircraft as I am an a&p so I never felt the need to apply for it.

bob
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In my case the inspector was not interested in my builder's log at all. He knew I built it and knew my knowledge of the airframe was more than sufficient to maintain it. His concern was firewall forward and whether I had sufficient knowledge on the engine and its related systems. So he spent about 45 minutes quizzing me on various FWF operational and maintenance related topics and inspected my logs before we moved on the application itself. But every FSDO and inspector is different so YMMV.....
 
When I built my RV7 I knew the DAR and he said since he was at the airport almost weekly and knew I was the builder so he didn't really need any pictures or much of a build log. I had a different DAR for the Cub and had to show him a log and pictures. He spent about two hours going over the airplane with me and asked a lot of questions do he could determine if I was truly the builder. The other DAR and the FAA guy also were very thorough when inspecting the planes I had helped on. Don
 
unsafervguy said:
an eab repairman cert is not automatic. you must apply for it and show the examiner through builder logs ect that you have built the aircraft and that you meet the regs to be issued the repairman cert. I do not hold a repairman cert for my aircraft as I am an a&p so I never felt the need to apply for it.

bob
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Not right Bob. You can get an elsa repairman if you are the owner of the airplane and have done the 16 hour repairman course. An elsa has the manufacturer named as the builder not any individual. Here is the registration on my friend's RV12 that he built.

http://registry.faa.gov/aircraftinquiry/NNum_Results.aspx?nNumberTxt=792rv
 
Gsxrpilot said:
Hey Mike, if you're looking at an RV you're in the right spot. Go over to Hicks and get in contact with Jay Pratt. He lives there in his hanger. He is probably the foremost expert on RV's in Texas and one of the best in the country. He's built several for himself, has built several for others, and rents hanger/shop/tools for still others to build with his assistance. And he'll know exactly what to look for in a pre-buy situation.

In fact, if it's even on the wish list, go over and meet Jay and let him show you around. It's interesting to see four or five RV's in various stages of construction. You'll learn more in an hour with him... super friendly guy as well.
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Thanks for the info. Do you have his hangar number by chance?
 
AggieMike88 said:
Thanks for the info. Do you have his hangar number by chance?
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So are you buying a RV or just talking about it???
I had a couple of posts on here about prebuy and price but deleted them. Figured it wasn't worth wasting my breath.
 
Hey Mike,

Jay's main hangar is directly across from TangoWhiskey's. Mine is two rows away.

For any of you that are considering RV's, go over to Vansairforce.net

See ya there!
 
rolivi said:
Hey Mike,

Jay's main hangar is directly across from TangoWhiskey's. Mine is two rows away.

For any of you that are considering RV's, go over to Vansairforce.net

See ya there!
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Since I have been to Troy's hangar, that helps a lot. And I wasn't aware you were there.... We need to schedule a breakfast meet at the Beacon for all of the DFW folk soon.

Pigpen, provide any and all info you wish. It is likely helpful to all folks, me included.
 
So if I buy an all ready built rv and I want to switch the panel to glass am I allowed to do that? Or I buy one with the wings off it. And I want to put the wings back on?
 
You can do the work BUT you still have to work with an A&P as he will have to sign off the annual condition inspection and any major alterations like a glass panel will require putting it back into phase 1 for a 5 hour test period and also require an A&P to sign off the work. Don
 
Criitter7 said:
So if I buy an all ready built rv and I want to switch the panel to glass am I allowed to do that? Or I buy one with the wings off it. And I want to put the wings back on?
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Gopher it.

In the first case, you might wish to take a close look at the operating limitations and decide if this is a major modification and if it requires an agreement with the FAA with respect to your plan for the test flight hours, but, there is no reason you can't do the work.

In the second case https://youtu.be/inHNNG1EDig
 
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