My (ex) instructor called me and nagged me because..

[jordane93]

FWIW I do all of my planning with a 1 hour reserve

Me too.

 

[Henning]

This.

My only issue with flying that low on fuel in my DA20 is that the gauge has a nifty pucker factor feature, once you get close to a quarter tank of fuel it'll swing in the yellow caution area back and forth a bit which compels you to put it on the ground sooner than later. Once I'm near ~6gal or so I make sure I'm awfully close to the field.

This is why I always put flow meters in my plane.

 

[RV10flyer]

I think everyone is hung up on what seems a low quantity. If he said he landed with 15 gallons of fuel in something with a TIO-520/40/50 no one would say a thing.

I have an IO-540 that burns 10.5-11.0 gph at 160kt cruise. So that would be like me landing with 8-9 gallons. No way, intentionally

I also consider this prior post by the OP where he knows better than his instructor on how to execute steep turns in the DA-20...

"And yes, I felt like sometimes my instructor would tell me to do certain things which I felt could be done differently.. not to go into deep detail but one of the things he never told me to do was to trim the airplane for a steep turn, I pretty much add a bit of power maybe half a second before I start the turn, then once my wings are starting to bank I would turn the trim wheel 2-3 times, depending on speed, etc.. And when he saw that I did that he told me to just control it with the stick, no trim needed.. Well I executed the steep turn very, very nicely and I respectfully told him that for ME, trimming helped me keep my nose up during the turn..I stuck with that technique, and for my checkride I did it and I lost maybe 25ft during my turns.
What I am trying to say is, within reason of course, YOU are the one flying the airplane, and if you perform better by doing something a certain way (which will not compromise safety or FARs of course) then by all means go for it! Dont be shy to let your instructor know."

 

[Henning]

Ok, I've just put some numbers together and see something that I think the OP either wasn't pointing out or was just missed.

His departure time was 6:30 from Atlanta. According to Skyvector, at 130 kts that's a 2:20 flight from Fulton Cty to Sanford, with arrival around 8:50, maybe 9:00 with 5 gallons of fuel on board. But sunset was at 8:15. His arrival was at night by plan. At 8 gph at low altitudes, he had 5/8 of an hour of fuel on board.

Does that change anything for the instructor to call and say "Hey, you landed our airplane with too little fuel"?

No, over half an hour left over is perfectly acceptable by all counts, even the FAA's standard for how much planned reserve. It may have warranted a call asking, "Did you realize you only had 5 gallons left?", not some freaking out diatribe.

 

[bflynn]

No, over half an hour left over is perfectly acceptable by all counts, even the FAA's standard for how much planned reserve. It may have warranted a call asking, "Did you realize you only had 5 gallons left?", not some freaking out diatribe.

Even after sunset? If you arrive at night, then you'll be flying into your reserve at night so i presume 45 minutes is required.

And perhaps he was calling in both the capacity of the instructor and an employee of the rental company.

 

[weilke]

This is a rental plane, right ? Have you ever flown the plane down to near empty and double checked the fuel burn as indicated on your fuel totalizer against the fueling records ?

'I didn't want to fly at night' doesn't really cut it as an excuse. As is, you were bumping up against the evening low on fuel. A quick-turn to pick up 10gallons wouldn't have cost you more than 30min.

Had you come up short and bent the plane/injured your pax, the FAA would have asked your CFI on what he taught you about aeronautical decisionmaking and flight planning. Yes, you have your ticket, as long as you rent their plane you are going to have to live with someone from the school looking over your shoulder.

 

[Clark1961]

I also consider this prior post by the OP where he knows better than his instructor on how to execute steep turns in the DA-20....

Seems like his instructor needs work on teaching methods. The trim in steep turns vs. no trim in steep turns is an old question that can be handled by demonstrating both methods and finding out what works best for the student. No need to ever let the question become a problem.

In other words, the OP needs to find an instructor who isn't a "do it my way" guy. OTOH, the OP and his instructor were enough of a team to get him through the check ride so prolly no big deal. OP just needs to keep learning (as we all do) and keep things in perspective. And maybe plan for a little more fuel on arrival.

 

[EdFred]

I have an IO-540 that burns 10.5-11.0 gph at 160kt cruise. So that would be like me landing with 8-9 gallons. No way, intentionally

Why not?

When I did my 9D9->SRQ trip in my Comanche, I dry tanked the tips, and based on the math was burning 11.4gph - which agreed with what the JPI said I was burning. I burned on the left tank for an hour plus (was also my climb tank) and then dry tanked the right tank. I had the calculations done, I knew how much was in the left, and where my right tank should have went dry. I was within 5nm of where I expected the engine to cough and I had 20ish minutes to go on the flight.

I knew where all my fuel was, I had calculated where my 3rd tank was to go dry within 0.5% of where it should have, and when I landed I had exactly what I thought I should have had - which was just under an hour of fuel. When they topped me off the next morning, I was less than half a gallon off from what I calculated and what the fuel totalizer said.

So what's the problem?

 

[N801BH]

Even after sunset? If you arrive at night, then you'll be flying into your reserve at night so i presume 45 minutes is required.

And perhaps he was calling in both the capacity of the instructor and an employee of the rental company.

And when the FBO topped off the plane, they very well may have filled it to the brim and not to the bottom of the filler neck.. That alone means they could have "stuffed" a gallon of more to each side so to make it look like it took alot of fuel.... The OP could have landed with 7 gallons, and that would NOT have triggered the call from the instructor.....

 

[Mike Smith]

And when the FBO topped off the plane, they very well may have filled it to the brim and not to the bottom of the filler neck.. That alone means they could have "stuffed" a gallon of more to each side so to make it look like it took alot of fuel.... The OP could have landed with 7 gallons, and that would NOT have triggered the call from the instructor.....

Or they could have not and he landed with 3. It's all speculation.

 

[weilke]

When I did my 9D9->SRQ trip in my Comanche, I dry tanked the tips, and based on the math was burning 11.4gph - which agreed with what the JPI said I was burning. I burned on the left tank for an hour plus (was also my climb tank) and then dry tanked the right tank. I had the calculations done, I knew how much was in the left, and where my right tank should have went dry. I was within 5nm of where I expected the engine to cough and I had 20ish minutes to go on the flight.

This is a plane you have been flying for a long time, you have plenty of total hours, years of weather experience and a fuel totalizer.
A very different scenario from a 40hr PPL with some portable electronics taking his girlfriend on a flight into the evening with 4.5gallons useable sloshing in his tank.

 

[EdFred]

This is a plane you have been flying for a long time, you have plenty of total hours, years of weather experience and a fuel totalizer.
A very different scenario from a 40hr PPL with some portable electronics taking his girlfriend on a flight into the evening with 4.5gallons useable sloshing in his tank.

At the time I hadn't even had the plane a year. But I was more addressing Wayne's comment of never going below an hour of fuel. If you know what you have and where it's at, what's the issue?

 

[weilke]

At the time I hadn't even had the plane a year. But I was more addressing Wayne's comment of never going below an hour of fuel. If you know what you have and where it's at, what's the issue?

You had two tools to know your fuel by the tenth. A fuel totalizer and the ability to run a tank dry to double-check.

I agree that there is no need for a hard-wired 1hr reserve.

 

[Piperonca]

This is a plane you have been flying for a long time, you have plenty of total hours, years of weather experience and a fuel totalizer.
A very different scenario from a 40hr PPL with some portable electronics taking his girlfriend on a flight into the evening with 4.5gallons useable sloshing in his tank.

Highly experienced pilots look at things differently from lowly experienced pilots. Most in this thread are trying to say, "be careful, grasshopper".

 

[RV10flyer]

This is a plane you have been flying for a long time, you have plenty of total hours, years of weather experience and a fuel totalizer.
A very different scenario from a 40hr PPL with some portable electronics taking his girlfriend on a flight into the evening with 4.5gallons useable sloshing in his tank.

Exactly. I think I read he has 90 hrs, but just the same. I doubt he has a fuel totalizer, as I did not see that mentioned previously.Foreflight gives you a total fuel number with tenths, but I have to plug in 12 gph for it to even be close, and then it is only for planning purposes.

 

[weilke]

Highly experienced pilots look at things differently from lowly experienced pilots. Most in this thread are trying to say, "be careful, grasshopper".

I am not 'highly experienced', I just know that flying yourself out of fuel in a rental is a dumb way to die.

The CFI called him and had a private conversation. He didn't give him a dressing-down in the FBO lobby in front of the assembled staff and students.

Kids these days First they fly around with their newfangled blue-tooth ADS-B thingmajigs and think they are invincible, then when someone asks them questions, they run off to the internet to complain.

Now I have to go and shoo some kids off my lawn.

 

[Piperonca]

I am not 'highly experienced', I just know that flying yourself out of fuel in a rental is a dumb way to die.

The CFI called him and had a private conversation. He didn't give him a dressing-down in the FBO lobby in front of the assembled staff and students.

Kids these days First they fly around with their newfangled blue-tooth ADS-B thingmajigs and think they are invincible, then when someone asks them questions, they run off to the internet to complain.

Now I have to go and shoo some kids off my lawn.

Sorry, I wasn't clear. We are in violent agreement. Of all the stupid things I have done in my many decades of flying in peace and in war, the absolute stupidest was running low on fuel when I didn't have to. In a rental, as it turns out.

 

[vintage cessna]

Even after sunset? If you arrive at night, then you'll be flying into your reserve at night so i presume 45 minutes is required.

And perhaps he was calling in both the capacity of the instructor and an employee of the rental company.

Five gallons for a 125 HP engine should be at least 45 minutes.

 

[vintage cessna]

The OP said he cruised at 2400 RPM and leaned. He was continuously tracking time elapsed and updating ETA and calculating time to the next nearest airport.

He didn't mention wx, but let's assume it was good VFR with no chance of lowering. There were 4 airports within 10 minutes of home base, all VFR.

Is this really a nail biter, tempting fate?

 

[Checkout_my_Six]

yes....he could have died.

 

[Jimmy cooper]

yes....he could have died.

True! And I'll bet he never measured his gas by hand either using a dip stick. I was always taught never to trust the fuel Gauges in any light aircraft. That instructor was only trying to impress this low timer and help him. Instead of that he's being portrayed as a "meanie". Move on.

 

[vintage cessna]

I guess some people are very meticulous about fuel management, while others ball park it and land to refuel before a certain comfort point is reached.

Nothing wrong with having a lot more fuel than needed, although the more fuel you carry, the more fuel you will burn.

 

[Everskyward]

The instructor may have commented on the OP's fuel situation because he cares about the OP. Or the instructor may have been a busybody. We can't tell with only one side of the story. Some people don't respond well to unsolicited advice and some people don't give it in a tactful way.

 

[vintage cessna]

The instructor may have commented on the OP's fuel situation because he cares about the OP. Or the instructor may have been a busybody. We can't tell with only one side of the story. Some people don't respond well to unsolicited advice and some people don't give it in a tactful way.

True. Although it sure sounds like an admonishment to me. If the CFI is going to admonish someone he needs to be on solid ground.

 

[EdFred]

If I were to have said anything as the instructor, and I probably wouldn't have, but it would have probably went something like this:

"Yo, Marco, what's shakin' man?"

"Uh, who is this?"

"Your old CFI, what's going down?"

"Nothing much."

"Wrong answer. You if you don't watch your fuel management, brah!"
"Hey, I see you flew the plane last night, was it a good flight?"

"Yeah, pretty good, joined the half mile club with my gf."

"Only went to 2640, eh?"

"No, was at 5280, but I just had her take her top off."

"Ha! Gotcha. Speaking of topping off, do you know how much fuel we put in after your flight?"

"Oh, I would have to say, I probably had 5-6 gallons left when we landed, that's like 25 gallons or so you put in I should have had 45 mins of fuel left if I did the numbers right."

"Alright, just checkin' out for ya. Oh, and just for the record going to 10,560 and having her go topless doesn't count as the mile high club either, I'm out!"

 

[vintage cessna]

If I were to have said anything as the instructor, and I probably wouldn't have, but it would have probably went something like this:

"Yo, Marco, what's shakin' man?"

"Uh, who is this?"

"Your old CFI, what's going down?"

"Nothing much."

"Wrong answer. You if you don't watch your fuel management, brah!"
"Hey, I see you flew the plane last night, was it a good flight?"

"Yeah, pretty good, joined the half mile club with my gf."

"Only went to 2640, eh?"

"No, was at 5280, but I just had her take her top off."

"Ha! Gotcha. Speaking of topping off, do you know how much fuel we put in after your flight?"

"Oh, I would have to say, I probably had 5-6 gallons left when we landed, that's like 25 gallons or so you put in I should have had 45 mins of fuel left if I did the numbers right."

"Alright, just checkin' out for ya. Oh, and just for the record going to 10,560 and having her go topless doesn't count as the mile high club either, I'm out!"

I wouldn't have called either. What are you supposed to say? "I see you landed with more than the required reserve, what's up with that?"

It would be like a cop stopping you for doing 70 in a 70 mph zone and letting you off with a warning.

 

[Kritchlow]

Sorry, I wasn't clear. We are in violent agreement. Of all the stupid things I have done in my many decades of flying in peace and in war, the absolute stupidest was running low on fuel when I didn't have to. In a rental, as it turns out.

I think everyone agrees with that. The question is, what is "running low on fuel"?

 

[Clark1961]

I think everyone agrees with that. The question is, what is "running low on fuel"?

The lawyers have answered that one.

I propose working out a more practical solution. Let's set some boundry conditions on the definition.

1) if then engine dies from fuel starvation which doesn't include pulling the mixture then that is definitely "running low on fuel"

2) if one lands with textbook reserves as planned in a textbook situation (weather, alternates, etc.) then that is not "running running low on fuel"

if you wind up somewheres between 1 and 2 then maybe you were "running low on fuel"

 

[bflynn]

The instructor may have commented on the OP's fuel situation because he cares about the OP. Or the instructor may have been a busybody. We can't tell with only one side of the story. Some people don't respond well to unsolicited advice and some people don't give it in a tactful way.

You could also consider that the instructor is an employee of the rental organization, who probably has a strong interest in their airplane not running out of fuel.

 

[vintage cessna]

You could also consider that the instructor is an employee of the rental organization, who probably has a strong interest in their airplane not running out of fuel.

The best any FBO can hope for is that the customers conduct their flight within the confines of the FAR's. That is usually what the rental agreement requires. Any FBO that requires more than that is just hurting their own business and not really affecting safety.

 

[Kritchlow]

The lawyers have answered that one.

I propose working out a more practical solution. Let's set some boundry conditions on the definition.

1) if then engine dies from fuel starvation which doesn't include pulling the mixture then that is definitely "running low on fuel"

2) if one lands with textbook reserves as planned in a textbook situation (weather, alternates, etc.) then that is not "running running low on fuel"

if you wind up somewheres between 1 and 2 then maybe you were "running low on fuel"

Yup...

 

[James331]

Exactly. I think I read he has 90 hrs, but just the same. I doubt he has a fuel totalizer, as I did not see that mentioned previously.Foreflight gives you a total fuel number with tenths, but I have to plug in 12 gph for it to even be close, and then it is only for planning purposes.

Forefligt is nearly useless when it comes to fuel planning, it's so so on flight times, fltplan is a way better option, after entering all your performance numbers, it's actually quite spot on.

 

[Piperonca]

The lawyers have answered that one.

I propose working out a more practical solution. Let's set some boundry conditions on the definition.

1) if then engine dies from fuel starvation which doesn't include pulling the mixture then that is definitely "running low on fuel"

2) if one lands with textbook reserves as planned in a textbook situation (weather, alternates, etc.) then that is not "running running low on fuel"

if you wind up somewheres between 1 and 2 then maybe you were "running low on fuel"

When the engine quits on taxi to the fuel pump that's pretty close to condition 1).

 

[N801BH]

I wouldn't have called either. What are you supposed to say? "I see you landed with more than the required reserve, what's up with that?"

It would be like a cop stopping you for doing 70 in a 70 mph zone and letting you off with a warning.

...

 

[bflynn]

I wouldn't have called either. What are you supposed to say? "I see you landed with more than the required reserve, what's up with that?"

It would be like a cop stopping you for doing 70 in a 70 mph zone and letting you off with a warning.

You're starting with a presumption that there wasn't an infraction. There might have been. The OP left Atlanta at 6:30 and landed at KTTA something like 30-45 minutes after sunset. 5 gallons on a 8gph plan is not 45 minutes of reserve required for night flying.

What are you supposed to say? You left 5 gallons in the airplane, you didn't refuel it and you landed with less than the legal fuel reserve. I'm sure I covered each of these points.

 

[Tom-D]

"Hey, you landed our airplane with too little fuel"?

Tell them to suck a rope. you were with in limits.

 

[vintage cessna]

You're starting with a presumption that there wasn't an infraction. There might have been. The OP left Atlanta at 6:30 and landed at KTTA something like 30-45 minutes after sunset. 5 gallons on a 8gph plan is not 45 minutes of reserve required for night flying.

What are you supposed to say? You left 5 gallons in the airplane, you didn't refuel it and you landed with less than the legal fuel reserve. I'm sure I covered each of these points.

No matter how you look at it, day/night, the numbers are so close it just amounts to quibbling . I think the OP mis typed when he wrote 8 gph. Six to seven gph would be more like it, especially leaned and at 2400 RPM.

Did the CFI refuel above the full mark ? The CFI would know how much time remained with 5 gallons for that engine, and it would be at least 45 minutes at a normal power setting.

 

[Clark1961]

You're starting with a presumption that there wasn't an infraction. There might have been. The OP left Atlanta at 6:30 and landed at KTTA something like 30-45 minutes after sunset. 5 gallons on a 8gph plan is not 45 minutes of reserve required for night flying.

What are you supposed to say? You left 5 gallons in the airplane, you didn't refuel it and you landed with less than the legal fuel reserve. I'm sure I covered each of these points.

You aren't required to land with the reserve, only plan for it.

 

[AustinPilot]

I always wondered how it was pilots managed to run out of fuel in the air. Now I have a giant thread that explains it.

 

[Vf6cruiser]

You are fine and doing an above average job as PIC........the buck stops with you and you were on top of it........I like the comment you should fuel the plane as soon as you land and leave the peanut gallery out of it..............