Does an annual confirm the compliance with all ADs? Can compliance be assumed?

[German guy]

The pre-buy inspection revealed that it is not documented that the AD94-05-05R1 for the Continental O-300 of the plane we want to buy had been complied with.
The AD requires that when a cylinder is removed, the cylinder rocker shaft bosses need to be inspected.

All cylinders had been removed / replaced since the AD came out, no log book entry regarding the compliance with the AD was however made.
The broker, who represents the seller, tells me that the guy who did the annual also automatically confirmed the compliance with all ADs by signing it off and that we could legally fly the plane at least until the next annual. Most mechanics would however assume that when the cylinders had been pulled, the AD had also been complied with.

I did some research and understand that the compliance with an AD needs to be specifically stated in the log book.

So, what do you think? The engine has ran 1500 hours and was overhauled 40 years ago. I would think that the efforts to do the inspection of the cylinder rocker shafts would be so high that it would make more sense to do a complete overhaul instead!?

 

[Checkout_my_Six]

I would not assume anything.

If it were me.....it would be out of compliance without an AD signoff....even with a signed Annual Inspection.

Have the seller go back to the installer and have him provide the AD signoff for the required.

 

[poadeleted20]

The general answer to that question is "trust, but verify" -- the IA doing the inspection is supposed to confirm compliance with all applicable AD's, but IA's are human and sometimes they make mistakes. One cannot rely on an IA's signing of an annual inspection to be 100% reliable in confirming that an AD was complied with, and the FAA will not accept that annual inspection endorsement as proof of compliance without specific documentation of compliance with that particular AD somewhere in the aircraft's maintenance records.

So, I'm with Sixie:

Have the seller go back to the installer and have him provide the AD signoff for the required.

Either that, or get agreement to deduct the cost of compliance from the selling price, or make properly documented compliance by the seller a condition of the sale. But as you describe it, that plane isn't legal to fly as it is.

 

[James331]

What the others said, your AP prebuy should first start with the logs, FAA CD, and NTSB search, then to the plane, that wouldn't be the first plane to be flying fat, dumb and happy with outstanding ADs.

 

[N801BH]

The rocker bosses are cast into the cylinder assemblies..... Once NEW cylinders are installed... the AD goes away.... IMHO....

 

[bnt83]

The rocker bosses are cast into the cylinder assemblies..... Once NEW cylinders are installed... the AD goes away.... IMHO....

Now to really blow your top, I've seen a letter from an ACO saying that even brand new airplanes need to comply and document compliance with AD 70-22-04.

"Applies to all aircraft incorporating Wood electric Corp ... circuit breakers..." "...to detect jammed circuit breakers on all Wood electric models 105, 106, 107, 108..."

I'm not sure I've ever seen one in an airplane before

http://rgl.faa.gov/Regulatory_and_G...E0EB694F30CB003A86256E01005ACB4E?OpenDocument

 

[tyndall]

If the broker is that confident then he shouldn't have a problem getting the IA to fix the logs or explain why the AD isn't applicable.

A bigger concern is your confidence in the engine. It seems like every little thing is reason to justify an overhaul now instead of later. If you are so worried, do it now. Otherwise every time you take it up you're going to be wondering if it's going to fail, no matter what the experts say.

 

[Dan Thomas]

In Canada it's the owner that is responsible to see that all applicable ADs are complied with. Most of them will ask the mechanic to check the logs and AD database to see that they're all up to date.

I would imagine the FARs also place the burden of compliance on the aircraft owner.

Dan

 

[RotorAndWing]

In Canada it's the owner that is responsible to see that all applicable ADs are complied with. Most of them will ask the mechanic to check the logs and AD database to see that they're all up to date.

I would imagine the FARs also place the burden of compliance on the aircraft owner.

Dan

You are correct.

 

[poadeleted20]

The rocker bosses are cast into the cylinder assemblies..... Once NEW cylinders are installed... the AD goes away.... IMHO....

The AD says otherwise. Initial compliance was required...

At the next cylinder removal from the engine, or engine overhaul, whichever occurs first, after the effective date of this AD...

and then reaccomplished...

(c) Thereafter, at each subsequent cylinder or engine overhaul, reinspect cylinder rocker bosses and rocker shafts in accordance with paragraphs (a) and (b) of this AD.

So, if "All cylinders had been removed / replaced since the AD came out" (as the OP said), then the AD had to be complied with and documented at that time, and the airplane has been legally unairworthy since the first cylinder was removed/replaced without that AD being complied and the compliance documented.

That said, it's not clear to me from that AD whether installation of a new cylinder means the AD doesn't apply to that new cylinder upon installation. But even if that's true, I think it would be appropriate to note that fact in the aircraft's maintenance records (specifically, the AD list). But even then, the AD clearly still applies if those new cylinders are later overhauled. IOW, there's no terminating action for this AD. And it is clear that it applies to an overhauled cylinder, so if the cylinders were overhauled or replaced with overhauled assemblies rather than replaced with factory-new cylinders, there is no question the AD needs to be covered in the aircraft's records.

 

[timwinters]

Is this the same airplane with the 40 year old engine? If so, then if your offer is already reflective of the engine being "run out" then it doesn't matter as far as price goes.

It only matters if you planned to see how many hours you can get out of the current engine AND it's illegal to fly because of non-compliance with the AD. If it's not illegal to fly then fly it!

Sounds like a question to pose of someone at the FAA and not to those who wish they were.

 

[poadeleted20]

Is this the same airplane with the 40 year old engine? If so, then if your offer is already reflective of the engine being "run out" then it doesn't matter as far as price goes.

But it does matter if you aren't going to get the engine overhauled where it is now -- as I read the AD, you'd need a ferry permit to fly it anywhere else legally now (assuming the FAA would give one).

Sounds like a question to pose of someone at the FAA and not to those who wish they were.

Agreed -- show the engine log to an Airworthiness Inspector at your FSDO.

 

[German guy]

Thank you for all your responses. Yes, it is the same plane as the one I was asking about in the O-300 thread. As this is however a different issue, which might also be of interest for other pilots, I started a new thread. The price and our budgeting indeed reflects the run out engine, the expectation is however to at least fly it until next winter. If it lasts longer, fine. If it need to be overhauled earlier – OK, bad luck, this is what I expected.
Want I however don’t want is to fly home with a not airworthy aircraft or to get a ferry permit and I also don’t want to have it taken apart, as soon as it gets into our possession.

I also did some more own research, but found no indication that an annual would automatically confirm the compliance with all ADs. Or, that the logged work on a component also confirms that all AD related to it had been followed.

At the end it is me, the pilot, who is responsible for the airworthiness of the aircraft he is flying.

As I don’t want to take any chances, I told the broker that we take the plane only if the compliance with all ADs is recorded in the logbooks. The broker responded that the mechanic who did all the work on the engine is on a 3 month assignment abroad and therefore won’t be able to make any entries into the logbook. He will now ask him, whether he would be able / willing to send a written statement, confirming the compliance with the AD. I believe this should be sufficient and therefore agreed to his suggestion.

 

[poadeleted20]

As I don’t want to take any chances, I told the broker that we take the plane only if the compliance with all ADs is recorded in the logbooks.

Wise choice.

The broker responded that the mechanic who did all the work on the engine is on a 3 month assignment abroad and therefore won’t be able to make any entries into the logbook. He will now ask him, whether he would be able / willing to send a written statement, confirming the compliance with the AD. I believe this should be sufficient and therefore agreed to his suggestion.

Just make sure that whatever is written fully complies with 14 CFR 43.9 and the AD requirements, and is entered into the engine log.

 

[Tom-D]

The pre-buy inspection revealed that it is not documented that the AD94-05-05R1 for the Continental O-300 of the plane we want to buy had been complied with.

Three questions does the engine have Continental cylinders on it?

Is there an engine sign off that says that this engine complies with FAR 43.2 for overhauled ?

Has any cylinders been replaced after that entry?

 

[Tom-D]

Just make sure that whatever is written fully complies with 14 CFR 43.9 and the AD requirements, and is entered into the engine log.

ADs can have a separate log.

and this AD may not apply to the engine.

 

[German guy]

[...] That said, it's not clear to me from that AD whether installation of a new cylinder means the AD doesn't apply to that new cylinder upon installation. But even if that's true, I think it would be appropriate to note that fact in the aircraft's maintenance records (specifically, the AD list). [...]

I just re-read my initial post and saw that I did not make myself sufficiently clear - according to the Cessna Center, which did the pre-buy inspection, only some of the cylinders had been replaced with new parts. Others had just been repaired.

[...] Just make sure that whatever is written fully complies with 14 CFR 43.9 and the AD requirements, and is entered into the engine log.

Do I understand you right that it is not sufficient to simply keep the confirmation letter with the logbook, even if the letter's content is in compliance with the regulation you mentioned?

 

[Tom-D]

When at the last annual, the aircraft was declared airworthy, the IA implied that the ADs were done and the aircraft was in compliance with
far 39.

 

[poadeleted20]

and this AD may not apply to the engine.

Unlikely.

Teledyne Continental Motors (TCM) Model ... O-300 series reciprocating engines, installed on but not limited to Cessna Models 120, ...172, 172A-H...

Further...

This airworthiness directive (AD) applies to each engine identified in the preceding applicability provision, regardless of whether it has been modified, altered, or repaired in the area subject to the requirements of this AD.

And nothing I see in the limits its effectivity to Continental cylinders or that a cylinder signed off as overhauled are not included.

 

[poadeleted20]

I just re-read my initial post and saw that I did not make myself sufficiently clear - according to the Cessna Center, which did the pre-buy inspection, only some of the cylinders had been replaced with new parts. Others had just been repaired.

Then those repaired cylinders are definitely affected.

Do I understand you right that it is not sufficient to simply keep the confirmation letter with the logbook, even if the letter's content is in compliance with the regulation you mentioned?

As long as the letter remains part of the engine's maintenance records, it should be OK. However, it would probably be better if the signed entry was pasted into the logbook -- less chance of being separated from the records.

 

[poadeleted20]

When at the last annual, the aircraft was declared airworthy, the IA implied that the ADs were done and the aircraft was in compliance with
far 39.

The FAA does not accept that implication. You can confirm that with any FAA Airworthiness Inspector.

 

[Tom-D]

Others had just been repaired.

What was the brand name of those cylinders..??

This AD only applies to Continental Cylinders, there are three major after market cylinders that could be in service on your engine.

add the fact the cylinders may or may not have been removed.

IF IF IF in doubt, remove the valve covers and check for cracks of the rocker arm cross shaft bosses of the head casting. = no cracks sign the AD off as complied with by inspection should only require an hour labor.

 

[Tom-D]

The FAA does not accept that implication. You can confirm that with any FAA Airworthiness Inspector.

they certainly do.. They will bust your ticket when they are not complied with.

 

[poadeleted20]

What was the brand name of those cylinders..??

This AD only applies to Continental Cylinders,

I'm not seeing that in the AD. Can you quote the section of the AD which says that?

 

[German guy]

Three questions does the engine have Continental cylinders on it?

Is there an engine sign off that says that this engine complies with FAR 43.2 for overhauled ?

Has any cylinders been replaced after that entry?

1.) I don't know
2.) I don't know either, I was however told by the Cessna Center that it had been overhauled 40 years ago.
3.) Yes, but only 2 or 3 of them.

ADs can have a separate log.

and this AD may not apply to the engine.

According to the Cessna Center all ADs, except of this one, are recorded in the logbook. They also said that this AD applies to this engine. When I looked at the AD, I also came to the conclusion that it applies to a wide variety of engines, including this one.

[...] As long as the letter remains part of the engine's maintenance records, it should be OK. However, it would probably be better if the signed entry was pasted into the logbook -- less chance of being separated from the records.

The thing is that the seller lives in Florida, we live in Michigan and I would rather not to send engine logbook, if not necessary.

 

[Tom-D]

I'm not seeing that in the AD. Can you quote the section of the AD which says that?

The application list does not include the Superior or ECI cylinders, When it applies to them they will be listed.

If it does not apply, it is not required to list it.

 

[German guy]

[...] IF IF IF in doubt, remove the valve covers and check for cracks of the rocker arm cross shaft bosses of the head casting. = no cracks sign the AD off as complied with by inspection should only require an hour labor.

When I read the AD, I understood that a visual inspection, while everything is still assembled, would not be sufficient!?

 

[Tom-D]

When I read the AD, I understood that a visual inspection, while everything is still assembled, would not be sufficient!?

If in this case if they are not cracked now, they couldn't have been cracked when installed.

A little common sense goes a long way.

 

[Tom-D]

Your first question to your pre-buy inspector should be, "who manufactured the cylinders in question"

and where does the AD say it applies to after market cylinders?

 

[Dan Thomas]

If that AD applies to this airplane and it hasn't been addressed, how many other ADs are outstanding on it?

Could get expensive. Or could make the airplane worthless, depending on the cost of doing some of those ADs.

 

[German guy]

If that AD applies to this airplane and it hasn't been addressed, how many other ADs are outstanding on it? [...]

The Cessna Center went through everything. This AD and that the installation of the (generally correct) prop had not been recorded, were the only findings in this regards.

 

[Tom-D]

If that AD applies to this airplane and it hasn't been addressed, how many other ADs are outstanding on it?

Could get expensive. Or could make the airplane worthless, depending on the cost of doing some of those ADs.

In order to determine if the cylinder AD complies is to determine how many cylinders were changed after the effective date of the AD. which is 1994. there may be a chance that all cylinders that were replaced were completed prior to the AD. If so, the AD does not apply. Simply because they were not changed after that.

Secondly, this AD only applies to cylinders that were removed and returned to service, it does not apply to new cylinders so we must know what the replaced cylinders were ? new ? used ? or ?

So the questions will be:
date of last overhaul?
Date of cylinder changes?
Make of cylinders replaced?
If :::
the cylinders that were replaced, were they new? used?
If they were used and reworked, do you have a yellow tag to go with them?

There is a very good chance that this 1994 AD does not apply to this old engine. with a 40 year old overhaul.

 

[German guy]

In order to determine if the cylinder AD complies is to determine how many cylinders were changed after the effective date of the AD. which is 1994. there may be a chance that all cylinders that were replaced were completed prior to the AD. If so, the AD does not apply. Simply because they were not changed after that.

Secondly, this AD only applies to cylinders that were removed and returned to service, it does not apply to new cylinders so we must know what the replaced cylinders were ? new ? used ? or ?

So the questions will be:
date of last overhaul?
Date of cylinder changes?
Make of cylinders replaced?
If :::
the cylinders that were replaced, were they new? used?
If they were used and reworked, do you have a yellow tag to go with them?

There is a very good chance that this 1994 AD does not apply to this old engine. with a 40 year old overhaul.

I understand that this will be a part of the confirmation letter, the mechanic will have to provide. I want to see a written explanation for each cylinder he had removed. I demanded a written statement in compliance with '14 CFR 43.9 and the AD requirements' as as suggested by Ron. I looked at this regulation, it includes all the points you mentioned and more. If the seller doesn't comply, we are out.

Even though the price for the plane is only in the mid 20s and even though we are prepared to have the engine overhauled if necessary, we certainly don't want to start our first ownership with an unairworthy aircraft, a ferry permit or a immediate overhaul of the engine.

 

[Henning]

What would it cost to just comply with the AD?

 

[Tom-D]

What would it cost to just comply with the AD?

Until I saw the records I'd not guess, the AD can be complied with the cylinders installed, remove 6 valve covers, 12 rocker arms, 6 cross shafts. and dye check the bosses. About 2-3 hours labor.

But the kicker is, when these old cylinders have been in service a long time (1400 hours) you will probably find a couple cracked.

 

[German guy]

What would it cost to just comply with the AD?

I have no exact idea, I however thought that it will be quite expensive: If I understand the AD correctly, the rocker shafts must be removed and the bosses be inspected.

Frankly, I don't want to deal with this. Even though it is a really nice plane, the price is already on the edge for an aircraft with a run out engine.

 

[Henning]

Until I saw the records I'd not guess, the AD can be complied with the cylinders installed, remove 6 valve covers, 12 rocker arms, 6 cross shafts. and dye check the bosses. About 2-3 hours labor.

But the kicker is, when these old cylinders have been in service a long time (1400 hours) you will probably find a couple cracked.

So what's a new set of jugs go for? Freshen up the top end.

 

[German guy]

[...] But the kicker is, when these old cylinders have been in service a long time (1400 hours) you will probably find a couple cracked.

You would expect them to fail at any time?

 

[Tom-D]

I understand that this will be a part of the confirmation letter, the mechanic will have to provide. I want to see a written explanation for each cylinder he had removed. I demanded a written statement in compliance with '14 CFR 43.9 and the AD requirements' as as suggested by Ron. I looked at this regulation, it includes all the points you mentioned and more. If the seller doesn't comply, we are out.

Even though the price for the plane is only in the mid 20s and even though we are prepared to have the engine overhauled if necessary, we certainly don't want to start our first ownership with an unairworthy aircraft, a ferry permit or a immediate overhaul of the engine.

I'd not allow this minor AD ruin a sale, you are going to overhaul it anyway. you will use new cylinders then. or you can top it now, 6 cylinders now or later -- which?

 

[Henning]

You would expect them to fail at any time?

That is an over statement. This is a minor issue, engines are the cheapest thing to deal with in overall cost/value. It's the airframe condition that means everything in the overall ownership cost equation, any airframe repairs have negative residual value, and they usually put your plane out of commission for a year.

With this deal you are buying a run out engine anyway. What I would try to do if the airframe is a good speci mine is work the deal you buy new cylinders, seller pays the labor. Get a nice new set. Cylinders are engine accessories, and in 2 years/200 hours if/when you decide to overhaul the engine, they can be put back onto the reworked lower end.

Or just go ahead and hang a 180hp kit on it.