Car leasing

Let's put this into "pilot speak" :D
What is the cheapest way to fly a NEW Skyhawk 100 hours per year? Rent or buy??:dunno:
The answer on this forum will always be to BUY a 1970 something 172, it will do the same thing, right? But that's not what the question asked.
Obviously it's cheaper to rent a new 172 for 100 hours vs buying a new one for $3-400K. $150X100 hours is $15,000 per year, no way to own a new one for that, even using zero cost of funds, the depreciation alone is probably $50K the first year.
Leasing can work for some, just like renting vs owning. I say that as someone who doesn't lease many cars, but certain circumstances make it make sense. :D
 
Just for fun. I used to think leasing was stupid, but I'm not convinced that it is all that bad as some people make it out to be anymore.

As an example.

One of my prior co-workers was bragging about her car lease and said she could guarantee she was paying less than any of us for our cars. So I ran the numbers over a 3 year period. She has a Cadillac, not sure which model but the cheapest lease is advertised at $299/month for 36 months + $2439 due at signing.

Over the last 36 months I have spent $8,310 in maintenance costs on my car, which is higher than I would like but not much I can do about it. A good portion of that was a rebuilt transmission. Maintenance is included on the Cadillac leases.

If you go back 4 years, she would have had two signings so total $19230. Price for me if you add in the car purchase, $28310. So a $9000 difference in her favor, however I still have something I can sell. OTOH that $9000 invested over the 4 years might eat that equity benefit quickly.
Are you comparing cars bought or leased new? I would have thought the transmission (and other repairs) would have been covered by warranty on a 36 month old car.
 
Let's put this into "pilot speak" :D
What is the cheapest way to fly a NEW Skyhawk 100 hours per year? Rent or buy??:dunno:
The answer on this forum will always be to BUY a 1970 something 172, it will do the same thing, right? But that's not what the question asked.
Obviously it's cheaper to rent a new 172 for 100 hours vs buying a new one for $3-400K. $150X100 hours is $15,000 per year, no way to own a new one for that, even using zero cost of funds, the depreciation alone is probably $50K the first year.
Leasing can work for some, just like renting vs owning. I say that as someone who doesn't lease many cars, but certain circumstances make it make sense. :D

That calculation didn't include residual value of the new plane at the end of the year or rental income during that period.. Like Wayne always said, the deal isn't done until it's over and you're rid of the plane. Airplanes also provide other income opportunities than cars, so it's really not a accurate comparison.
 
Are you comparing cars bought or leased new? I would have thought the transmission (and other repairs) would have been covered by warranty on a 36 month old car.

I don't buy new cars. And it was out of warranty at 70k miles for a second owner.

Those maintenance costs include typical oil changes, belt change, alignments, tire rotations, etc that would be covered in a lease.

I suppose that is another variable though - should compare new car to new lease car. :dunno:
 

This is one of the places where Dave is laughably wrong. Mind you, I like Dave. Most of the people who end up in his seminars or listening to his radio show are so screwed up that they can hardly go wrong listening to his advice.

Once you get past the: Pay cash and buy used, his math falls apart when you apply it to real life situations. Assuming you're going to make 12% on your 'car fund' every year is laughable.
 
Okay, so I love my credit union, but why would I pay 2.69% through them when the manufacturer is offering 0%?

Well, the interest rate is important, but it's not the only factor. In the case of my recent car purchase, my credit union was actually cheaper than the dealer's financing when the gap insurance and life / disability insurance were factored in, despite a slightly higher interest rate.

Rich
 
Leases are awful almost always for the average Joe. A few "reasons" above are correct for having a lease on a massively depreciating asset, but mostly are based in attempting to limit the effects of a severe lack of self control.

If you do a lease, make sure you have gap coverage insurance. Watched two friends get the joy of totaling vehicles and making payments on them for a couple of years after the vehicles were hauled away. This can happen with leveraged standard purchases also, of course.

The dealer you lease from will make sure you have gap insurance.....for sure. It's in the fine print that no one reads and you pay for it. I drove a company leased ford crown Vic for years. At 70,000 you were told to go get a new one. The reason being that to keep it longer proved not a smart idea due to repairs and downtime. This worked out to two and a half to three years.
 
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Well, the interest rate is important, but it's not the only factor. In the case of my recent car purchase, my credit union was actually cheaper than the dealer's financing when the gap insurance and life / disability insurance were factored in, despite a slightly higher interest rate.

Rich


You bought Life Insurance with a car transaction?
 
No my comparision is based flying a new airplane 100 hours per year. This group would eat the person alive that tried to justify buying a new airplane. The residual value of a new airplane after 12 months would certainly be $30-40K less than the purchase price. And I didn't mention renting the airplane or car for additional income. ;)

That calculation didn't include residual value of the new plane at the end of the year or rental income during that period.. Like Wayne always said, the deal isn't done until it's over and you're rid of the plane. Airplanes also provide other income opportunities than cars, so it's really not a accurate comparison.
 
GAP is included on Ford credit leases, no charge, for whatever that's worth. They are protecting themselves on the leases. :D

The dealer you lease from will make sure you have gap insurance.....for sure. It's in the fine print that no one reads and you pay for it. I drove a company leased ford crown Vic for years. At 70,000 you were told to go get a new one. The reason being that to keep it longer proved not a smart idea due to repairs and downtime. This worked out to two and a half to three years.
 
Meaning it's build into the lease rate. Ain't no free lunch.

Of course it is. Car dealers don't miss a trick. It's kind of weird to be discussing car leases and how expensive they are when one considers flying and its costs, expecting nothing but some good scenery , bs sessions , spine tingling escapes from weather, expensive hamburgers, and in the end, oftentimes lose lots of dough.
 
My normal MO in the past has been to buy used cars and run 'em for a long time. I'm 40 years old and this will only be my third car in my life. So I get that viewpoint - And it's still something I'm considering - but due to my desires this time around and the fact that almost all cars seem to have gotten a refresh since 2013, I'll be buying newer than I ever have before even if I do buy used.

" ... I'm looking for modern powertrain options that have only come into existence in the last 2-3 years and are very difficult to find on the used market. ... " When you want to rationalize something, a good way to do it is to set some ground rules that appear to force you into the decision that you have already made. If you do the mathematical analysis comparing the total costs of car that you can afford (maybe your current car!) and the total costs of that zippy hybrid, you will almost certainly find that the "modern powertrain" does not come close to generating a payback.

It's not all about a payback. I'm willing to spend a little extra on the car to avoid buying so much gas, even if the purely financial equation says the gas will be a bit cheaper. And I am smart enough to do the ROI study and figure out what the exact differences are.

" ... we're likely to end up with two car payments soon. ..." Ack! Someone with a gun is going to force you? You expect to accidentally sign some loan agreements without realizing it -- maybe in your sleep? There isn't any "likely" or "unlikely," there is only a choice.

And that choice is that I would rather not put a ton of maintenance dollars into old cars. My car is a 2001, my wife's is a 2004. It's simply reality that the 2004 is likely to cost more in maintenance to keep for another 5 years than it's worth - In fact, it's almost there now.
 
Kent, it sounds like it's just that you want a new car. It's hard to get that out of one's head. So finance the thing and then either keep it forever or sell it when it's time for a different one.

I bought a new vehicle precisely once in the 30+ vehicles I've owned. It was a mistake, and one I don't see repeating again.
 
Kent, buy a used car. Save some money. Our newest car is 11 years old.

My newest is 13 years old with my daily driver being 17 years old. My girlfriend has the same model car that is 3 years old. I prefer my 17 year old one, it has more character, and doesn't have a cracked windshield.

Yes, but you guys do a lot more work on your own cars than I do - I can do the simple stuff like oil changes, but I've never even done a brake job, though a friend and I are going to do that to my wife's car together soon. So, it's more expensive for me to keep my car than it would be if I could do a lot more of the work on them.

So far I've bought an 8-year-old car and a 5-year-old car, and run them both until they weren't worth maintaining any more.
 
My normal MO in the past has been to buy used cars and run 'em for a long time. I'm 40 years old and this will only be my third car in my life. So I get that viewpoint - And it's still something I'm considering - but due to my desires this time around and the fact that almost all cars seem to have gotten a refresh since 2013, I'll be buying newer than I ever have before even if I do buy used.



It's not all about a payback. I'm willing to spend a little extra on the car to avoid buying so much gas, even if the purely financial equation says the gas will be a bit cheaper. And I am smart enough to do the ROI study and figure out what the exact differences are.



And that choice is that I would rather not put a ton of maintenance dollars into old cars. My car is a 2001, my wife's is a 2004. It's simply reality that the 2004 is likely to cost more in maintenance to keep for another 5 years than it's worth - In fact, it's almost there now.

What about that 2004 car needs to be done that will cost more than it's worth?
 
Kent, it sounds like it's just that you want a new car. It's hard to get that out of one's head. So finance the thing and then either keep it forever or sell it when it's time for a different one.

I bought a new vehicle precisely once in the 30+ vehicles I've owned. It was a mistake, and one I don't see repeating again.

I want a new-ish car - I'm looking at used still, as I do prefer that. I'm just looking at newer used ones than I've bought before. If I could find what I want in a used car for a reasonable price, I'd be all over it.

I'm curious, what makes you say the new car was a mistake, other than depreciation eating your lunch?
 
Kent, it sounds like it's just that you want a new car. It's hard to get that out of one's head.

I actually like new cars. I buy new, usually order exactly the model/color I want with the options I want. Then I drive it until it's useless and start over. Having access to "real" employee pricing (Ford A-plan) helps a lot to take some of the sting out of new.
 
I actually like new cars. I buy new, usually order exactly the model/color I want with the options I want. Then I drive it until it's useless and start over. Having access to "real" employee pricing (Ford A-plan) helps a lot to take some of the sting out of new.

Obviously to each his own, and if you can get an inside deal, it'd be a different story.
 
A-plan is a wonderful benefit for Ford employees and families, we have a lot of A-plan customers and most of them are a joy to deal with. :D
I actually like new cars. I buy new, usually order exactly the model/color I want with the options I want. Then I drive it until it's useless and start over. Having access to "real" employee pricing (Ford A-plan) helps a lot to take some of the sting out of new.
 
I became used to new cars from company leased cars. I like them. We usually drive new cars for about three years. I currently lease a cayman and will never own a porsche outright as too many things can go wrong, ......real expensive things! Like an engine, etc. I'm always under warranty. . but they are lots of fun to drive, I worked hard all my life so toad hall it do be!
 
Kent, it sounds like it's just that you want a new car. It's hard to get that out of one's head. So finance the thing and then either keep it forever or sell it when it's time for a different one.

I bought a new vehicle precisely once in the 30+ vehicles I've owned. It was a mistake, and one I don't see repeating again.

Exactly, buying a new car only works out if you drive it 'till the rims fall off'. However, if you are buying a car to drive for 10-15 years, it's not an altogether bad deal as you trade the depreciation hit at the beginning for warranty and maintenance costs. Then you do like you do now and drive it until it is no longer economically feasible to keep on the road. How you care for and treat the vehicle in the mean time determines how far down the road that will be, and even then there will still be residual value at the junk yard (excuse me, auto recyclers).

I bought one new vehicle, a 97 Ram 2500 with a Cummins. It worked out quite well, but that truck earned a living as well.
 
Buy new and run them until they are no longer economical to keep running. My son has my 1999 Jeep Wrangler parked at his place for when it snows (his 1999 Ford Mustang is USELESS in the snow). About 188,000 miles on the clock and it runs fine. I replaced it last year with a new 2013 Ford Escape because my wife was having too much trouble getting into the Wrangler. She's driving a 2006 Jeep Commander that has well over 100,000 miles on it. I'll need to put new tires on it "soon". The Escape was a good buy because Ford was offering 0% financing. Needless to say, I let them give me all the money interest free for 5 years. And that car has 25,000 miles on it in 17 months. Leasing wouldn't be a good idea at that run rate.

I find the complaints in Consumer Reports on quality interesting. Either I've been lucky, or people are really hard to please. My Wrangler has had a few problems over the decade and a half that I've owned it, but gee whiz, 188,000 miles? The Escape has been great, other than one recall that has been fixed and another waiting for parts. The Commander hasn't been so bad, either. Now, in the past I had far more trouble with cars. The worst was a 1974 Subaru that would blow the head gaskets every 50,000 miles. And, with sleeved cylinders sitting on crush washers that had to be replaced anytime the heads came off this wasn't just a "pull the heads and replace the gaskets" job. And, modern engines don't need a tune-up every 12,000 miles, either. I love new cars.

Oh, there's another approach, too. My original CFI (who had an MBA) bought the best car he could find for about $2000. If it only lasted a year it was still cheaper than buying new in his mind. And he typically drove Cadillacs.
 
The 12,000 mile tune up went away in 1975 with electronic ignition and unleaded gas, at that point it went to around 70,000 miles before you started seeing issues. Nowadays 120,000 isn't uncommon.
 
Okay, so I love my credit union, but why would I pay 2.69% through them when the manufacturer is offering 0%?

Is the manufacturer offering cash in lieu of a the discounted financing? If so, that cash may more than offset the credit union rate. At one time, if the manufacturer was offering a good rebate, you were better off taking the cash, buying down the credit union loan & paying it off early. On an NPV calculation cash up front makes a huge difference.

Also, see if the cash price would be less than the "0%" deals - sometimes the dealer will jack the price if you finance. Not always, but it is part of the game for some.

Finally, I nearly got burned on one deal with proposed dealer financing where they had a pretty stiff "pre-payment" penalty in the loan docs. The financial institution I used offered no pre-payment fees, meaning that I was able to pay it off much more quickly and save even more money.
 
I want a new-ish car - I'm looking at used still, as I do prefer that. I'm just looking at newer used ones than I've bought before. If I could find what I want in a used car for a reasonable price, I'd be all over it.

I'm curious, what makes you say the new car was a mistake, other than depreciation eating your lunch?

Basically the depreciation without a benefit. I got to absorb a lot of it for a truck that was no more reliable than my last one would've been with a new engine.

Now, if I'd bought a 4x4 version, I'd probably still have it today with around 250k miles on it. I might feel a bit differently then, but I don't typically keep vehicles forever.
 
I bought one new vehicle, a 97 Ram 2500 with a Cummins. It worked out quite well, but that truck earned a living as well.

Funny, mine was an 04 Ram 2500 with a Cummins that also worked for a living.
 
We belong to a credit union, have for years. The minute you tell the car sales manager this they become easier to deal with. Cars can go wrong at any milage. 2007 forester, turbo. 500 miles over warranty engine light came on. Was told it would cost 1200 bucks to find out what was wrong. They did however, reset the computer. I immed. Drove it to Another dealer and traded it. Never abused it, treated it well. One never knows. Or.....how about porsche. They have built a horizontally opposed engine for many many years yet, their more recent 911 series have had major, expensive problems with internal bearings and main seals. Some shooting craps at fifty thousand miles or less, never raced, and not backed up by the factory in some instances. Not good for a very expensive car. So much for German engineering.
 
0% APR isn't free money when you purchase a rapidly depreciating asset.
 
Funny, mine was an 04 Ram 2500 with a Cummins that also worked for a living.

Yeah, mine had more than paid for itself in the 250,000 miles I put on it in 3 years, and still had near a $12,000 residual value when I sold it, plus I claimed a warranty transmission in that period. The personal and farm use were pure cream off the deal.
 
People who say the worst things about leases are people who have never leased a car in their life. They just repeat the stereotypical rhetoric they hear from others who have never leased a car.:lol::lol::lol:

In this thread, I see words like complicated, expensive, large down payment, but I wouldn't use any of them to describe car leasing. The process is pretty straight forward. It's a simple formula to calculate a lease price, give or take. You are paying for the depreciation of the car (the manufacturer tells you that the residual value of the car after 3 years @ 12k miles/yr will be 60%, for example, so you are using 40% of the car value).

If the negotiated sale price (you negotiate a price even though you are not buying it, this price will be used to calculate the monthly payment) is 30K for example, 40% is $12,000. That's the depreciation cost. Divided by 36 is the monthly depreciation cost, $333.

Then there's a financing cost. Since you are getting the car upfront, the bank is putting up the money for you and you pay the bank back, so there's a finance portion of the monthly payment, usually 2-3% annually, depends on popularity of the car and market conditions, similar to new car loan. It could be $40-80. And then add sales tax and you have your monthly payment. You also have a bank fee and DMV fees but those come with new cars too. I have never paid any document fees or any other made up fees that some people fall for. I leased a brand new Toyota Rav 4 in 2009. The sticker was 31,000. I negotiated it down to 28k I think. The residual was like 60%, I ended u paying $350 all in.

You CAN put money down to offset the sales price, but not recommended when leasing. Those commercials that say $199/mo with $2999 down are for suckers. With no money down, that car will be about $279/mo + tax.

As for the "complications"... Yes, if you drive more than the allowed contracted mileage, you're gonna get screwed (about $0.20-.30/mile over the limit). So if you plan on driving 15k miles per year don't sign a lease for 10k/year. DUH!!! You can customize the lease according to what you'll need. It will increase depreciation and your monthly payment but no crazy overage charges. And if you bring it with holes in the seats, dents, or missing carpets, you're probably gonna get charged.

I take decent care of my cars, so I've never been hit with excess wear and tear. My cars are not spotless but I don't have tears in the leather or dents all over the place. Some parking scratches on bumpers and door dings are acceptable. I was told once that you do get about $1500 allowance for tear and wear before they start charging you.

In fact, my last Toyota was in such nice shape and had less than 27k miles when the lease was for 36k, that they took back the old one and put almost $2000 towards my new one. They bought out my lease and then resold it and probably made a few grand, so they put 2k towards my next lease.

Yes, I agree if you are looking to buy the car at lease end, don't lease, just finance it, you'll save a couple thousand. But if you like driving new cars every 3 years, lease it!

The good things about a lease are that you pay a much lower monthly rate on a 3 year lease than if you were to finance a car for 5 years. For example, my current car is worth about 42k, I lease for $401/month all in for 3 years/12k miles per year. If I were to finance the car for 5 years, even at 0%, it would be $720/mo with tax. Good luck finding 0% loans, and with no down payment. You will need to put down a couple grand for a new car loan. I have never put down anything more than 1st month's payment and DMV fees when leasing. So while you always have a monthly payment, you pay much less and are always driving a new car under warranty, so no out of pocket expenses when crap breaks. And now, manufacturers are including services. My latest Toyota came with 2 years of service free (oil changes only but I don't do anything more than that). After all, it's technically their car, if they think oil changes are enough, then it's all good. I did 1 oil change since the free services ended in March this year and the lease is up in March, but I'll probably get a offer to turn it in a couple months early and get a new lease. But I'm getting my first Beamer (X5 or X3) next so I'll probably keep it till March so I don't have to drive my new car in winter.

I have always leased, never bought a car. Since age 24, I have had five 3-year leases (2 Jeep SUV's, and 3 Toyota SUV's).

For me, it's a no brainer, but each person should look at their situation and do what best for them. To me, the best part about leasing is the lemon protection part of it. If I lease a car and it's a lemon (meaning it's always breaking down--when I was a kid, my parents bought a Chevy that was in the shop literally from the moment it left the lot. It had a tranny overhaul in the first year...wtf!), I just drive the lease out and repair using warranty. With leasing, all repairs are covered under warranty (as with buying), but at the end of the 3 years, you return their lemon and don't have to deal with it anymore. If you buy, after the warranty ends in 3 years, that's when you'll start pumping cash into it. Good luck selling a car like that.

FYI-I'm not a car salesman or loan officer. They are all grease balls who look to screw you if they think you won't call them on it.
 
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I don't buy new cars. And it was out of warranty at 70k miles for a second owner.



Those maintenance costs include typical oil changes, belt change, alignments, tire rotations, etc that would be covered in a lease.



I suppose that is another variable though - should compare new car to new lease car. :dunno:


Yeah, I suspect that people who lease new cars would otherwise be buying them new.
 
Orange, no real arguments, if you negotiate the lease well and want to always drive a new car with a full warranty, replacing it every 2-3 years, the leasing model is an effective one. However, that at the heart of it is an inefficient financial method of owning a car.

The first three years of new car ownership are the most expensive per mile due to depreciation effects. Many people people feel that having a warranty is a fair trade for those dollars, especially since it has residual value at sale, that's why 2 year leases under 12,000 miles a year are popular, it retains a year and 12,000 miles on the factory warranty which makes them great on the used car lot where he'll make more money the second time around than on the original deal, the used car side is the money maker in the sales division. New car sales is just the feed stock for a much more profitable industry.

What a 'trade every 2-3 years' policy does, whether it is purchase or lease, is denies you the least costly miles on the vehicle and those are the ones form 120,000 onward until the rims fall off, and the longer you can stretch that period of economically viable operations, the more it offsets the cost of those first 36,000 miles.

The overall best deal is to get one coming off a 36/36 lease that gets a factory extended warranty to 70,000 miles and drive it until the rims fall off.
 
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While I know that a lot of people make car payments that blows me away. Over 9% interest rates??? Someone would actually knowingly sign up for a loan at that high of a rate? :yikes:

Also, 12% return on mutual funds? I would like to know which fund that is...

Back to the subject at hand though, what's wrong with spending $6000 on a car that's a few years old but it good shape? Some of those will last you a decade with minimal repairs? Just go find some car enthusiasts and they'll tell you what lasts forever and what doesn't.

Anyway this whole notion of a car payment just continues to blow my mind. It's a terrible terrible deal I don't see why anyone would do it.
 
While I know that a lot of people make car payments that blows me away. Over 9% interest rates??? Someone would actually knowingly sign up for a loan at that high of a rate? :yikes:

Also, 12% return on mutual funds? I would like to know which fund that is...

Back to the subject at hand though, what's wrong with spending $6000 on a car that's a few years old but it good shape? Some of those will last you a decade with minimal repairs? Just go find some car enthusiasts and they'll tell you what lasts forever and what doesn't.

Anyway this whole notion of a car payment just continues to blow my mind. It's a terrible terrible deal I don't see why anyone would do it.

One of the issues that terminated my sales relationship at Landrum Chevrolet, directly by Sheppard AFB was that I would not participate in the "Airman Finance Program". Basically there is a company called "The Finance Company" that specializes in financing military personnel. What they do is figure out half of the remaining pay in the soldiers hitch, reverse calculate 21% interest, kick back 3 points to the dealer and keep 18%. When this fee was subtracted from the 50% residual income figure, it would determine what was available to spend on the car. So, since these figures were pretty constant by grade as this was often their first training base, the management wold buy cars that would fit these $ amounts with a 50-100% margin, then segregate these groups into E-1, E-2, E-3... Sections to direct people. The loans would be secured by them signing over an allotment against their pay. Their car costs them half their pay for the rest of their hitch basically, and most of them won't last that long. This is a huge ripoff and I refused to participate. I would however put an airman in a new Cavalier for a smaller payment, if a parent or grandparent had decent credit to co-sign, I could get them 0.9-2.9% interest on a three year loan with $750 down and a $189 a month payment.

I think it's morally wrong to take advantage of the stupid, to take advantage of a stupid soldier makes it kinda reprehensible even. I sold enough Cavaliers and GEO Metros and Trackers that he couldn't *****, but neither he nor I made the money that could have been made by ripping them off. What ended our relationship was cold calls. That's right, he wanted us to get in the phone book and cold call 40 people a day, I refused, I don't SPAM be it on computer or phone. "But you have to." "No, I don't. Now you can choose to further employ me or not, but I will not be making those calls."

He was out of business in another year anyway. The only way to survive long term in the car business is by being morally scrupulous and upstanding. By providing a benefit to the locals, not taking advantage of them or alienating them.
 
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