Don't be a dick

FastEddieB said:
Let me play devil's (dick's?) advocate for a moment.

Flight instructors are primed to look for errors. From small to large, it takes up a lot of their time and attention, and is a large part of what they're being paid to do.

So its almost a reflex to point out errors.

But they do need to be couched so as to not always appear negative and nitpicky.

For instance, "Very nice landing! MUCH better!!! Still, you had a little more back stick to go and you let the plane drift left just a tad right at the end. But really good job - let's try another!"

Similarly, this correction of "left final" might have been almost automatic. I don't think I would have jumped on the air to say anything, but later in conversation I might have mentioned it if I came into contact with the pilot - solely for his edification.

"By the way, good job out there in the pattern today! But technically, final isn't left or right, so that sounds a bit funny."

But bear in mind, I might just be a dick!
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I agree with you, but like the OP said, short final isn't the time or place to give someone a lecture on semantics. Kinda like someone saying that your lawn needs to be cut when your house is on fire.
 
bartmc said:
It seems that software developers are an easy target.
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It's interesting you mention that, because as a software developer myself, and with about 30 years in the IT field, I definitely think there's a connection.

For myself, I think it's because I've spent so much time "digging around in the weeds" with code development, that it'll be easier for me to ignore things I should be ignoring (while training, while handing an issue in the air, etc) and focus on the things I should be. With code development and debugging, you have to have the skills to ignore red herrings or you'll never get anything done.

Also...I love checklists. I have tons of checklists and procedures, and I use them. And, I expect others to use them if they're working on my systems. I would envision myself using aviation checklists religiously and not deviating from them at all (except to modify them when needed to make them more complete or safer).

I'm actually one of the (few?) engineers who read manuals, so going through a POH won't be an issue. Memorizing things won't be so easy, because I hate memorizing things - I learn and retain knowledge better by doing something, not reading about it (one reason I hated history in school so much).

But, I definitely think there's a correlation between aviation and engineers or software developers.
 
bartmc said:
....Also, I work with a lot of Indians. As a group they seem far far far more interested in general aviation than Americans. Perhaps because it's something available to them here that wasn't in India.
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I took up an Indian buddy who said it was actually a "really big deal" for him to be in a plane. He posted pics on facebook and like a gazillion of his Indian friends responded about how awesome it was that he got to fly. He still over-thanks me to this day, and I'm like dude, anytime you wanna go, let's go!
 
The Indian thing is interesting. I took a co worker flying and one of my devs overheard us discussing.

She said "you are a pilot?" I'm like "Duh!, can't you tell just by looking? I mean, look at my perfect hair and my jawline. Listen to my voice"

Ok, that's all lies.

So I explained how being a pilot works.

2 weeks later cut to her saying "Hey, can you meet me in the breakroom. I made you a meal." ummmmm ok. She is a vegeterian but made this very elaborate Indian chicken recipe for me for lunch.

I asked what the deal was and she said she wanted to thank me for letting her know about aviation. She said she wasn't even aware that this was an option. She had gone the weekend after I talked to her and signed up for flying lessons. I think she has had 2 or 3 now and just takes lessons for fun.

I have had 3 more of the developers from that part of the world sit me down and ask about it. I think it is a very foreign concept that anyone can just go take flying lessons. They all thought you had to be ex military to fly anything.

When it cools down a little, I am going to take my team flying for lunch.
 
Reminds me of some chatter on tower frequency at KAPC a while back.

Tower: Skyhawk, make (garbled transmission) and report (garbled transmission).

Skyhawk: You were stepped on, can you repeat?

Skylane: "Pilots don't use the word 'repeat.' We say 'say again' in pilot speak."

Tower: "And as I was TRYING to say, Skyhawk, make straight in for 18R, report the quarry."

Mumbled incoherently without keying the mike:

Skyhawk: "What a ********."
CFI in Skyhawk: "What a ********."
Tower: "What a ********."
Sac Arrow: "What a ********."
FBO: "What a ********."
 
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SixPapaCharlie said:
The Indian thing is interesting. I took a co worker flying and one of my devs overheard us discussing.

She said "you are a pilot?" I'm like "Duh!, can't you tell just by looking? I mean, look at my perfect hair and my jawline. Listen to my voice"

Ok, that's all lies.

So I explained how being a pilot works.

2 weeks later cut to her saying "Hey, can you meet me in the breakroom. I made you a meal." ummmmm ok. She is a vegeterian but made this very elaborate Indian chicken recipe for me for lunch.

I asked what the deal was and she said she wanted to thank me for letting her know about aviation. She said she wasn't even aware that this was an option. She had gone the weekend after I talked to her and signed up for flying lessons. I think she has had 2 or 3 now and just takes lessons for fun.

I have had 3 more of the developers from that part of the world sit me down and ask about it. I think it is a very foreign concept that anyone can just go take flying lessons. They all thought you had to be ex military to fly anything.

When it cools down a little, I am going to take my team flying for lunch.
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I had to re-read your post three times. The first thing that my mind keyed in on was "Indian Chick." Indian chicks are hot.
 
Sac Arrow said:
I had to re-read your post three times. The first thing that my mind keyed in on was "Indian Chick." Indian chicks are hot.
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You scared me. I thought I might have typed "Indian chick". lol
 
FastEddieB said:
Let me play devil's (dick's?) advocate for a moment.

Flight instructors are primed to look for errors. From small to large, it takes up a lot of their time and attention, and is a large part of what they're being paid to do.

So its almost a reflex to point out errors.

But they do need to be couched so as to not always appear negative and nitpicky.

For instance, "Very nice landing! MUCH better!!! Still, you had a little more back stick to go and you let the plane drift left just a tad right at the end. But really good job - let's try another!"

Similarly, this correction of "left final" might have been almost automatic. I don't think I would have jumped on the air to say anything, but later in conversation I might have mentioned it if I came into contact with the pilot - solely for his edification.

"By the way, good job out there in the pattern today! But technically, final isn't left or right, so that sounds a bit funny."

But bear in mind, I might just be a dick!
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Agreed, but I'd leave it to HIS flight instructor to make the correction. Every instructor who hears him make a radio call doesn't need to be telling him how to fly, that defeats rather than reinforces his training...IMO of course.
 
I always see all these people griping about certain terminology used on the radio, and I do see why you want to keep things uniform for clarity and brevity but the primary reason for having radios is to communicate.

Did your radio transmission communicate what you needed someone else to know? If so, then good enough.
 
Want some radio calls heard on non towered airfields that are made by thousand hour pilots that are wrong?

1. 'clear of the active' (what runway is the 'active' is it stenciled on the ground?)
2. its where, who, what, where (not 'over the river, cessna (no tail number), turning downwind (while still on a 45), dildo city traffic)
3. 'will do the best we can', swell, should we expect less?
4. misuse of roger, wilco, affirmative and acknowledged
5. landing with unstated intent, full stop? touch and go? low pass?
6. not declaring 'clear of runway xx' to let others know they can takeoff or land

There are tons of others. And add to that guys that cross midfield at PA, or worse, fly straight in, or drop into downwind on a midfield cross in front of other traffic.
 
What do you expect flying in dildo city?
 
I really don't give a hoot if the guy calls his tail number (albeit you're suppose to) I can't read it when flying anyway! At least tell me type and a location to look toward.


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PAustin said:
I really don't give a hoot if the guy calls his tail number (albeit you're suppose to) I can't read it when flying anyway! At least tell me type and a location to look toward.


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The reason for the tail number is not so you can verify it on the guys plane, its so you can DISTINGUISH between two Cessna's in the air at the same time. It's part of standard radio technique, and it's REQUIRED when communicating with ATC.
 
Again, how do you read the tail number when 1/4 or 1/8 mile away. Typically if you can really read it you're to close to them in the first place. Again, this is at an uncontrolled airport - not talking to ATC. Of course you have to a tail number to them.


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All this reminds me of the first time I used the radio in the plane when I was a student. Both my CFI and I were Extra class amateur radio operators. You'd think I would know how to talk on the radio. You'd think incorrectly. That was in 2000 and I think the guys in the tower are still laughing. I don't remember what I said, but whatever it was it sure wasn't right. Don't worry, it's a different lingo than you are used to at this point. You'll figure it out. Then it will be second nature. In the meantime, have fun learning. :yes:
 
CTLSi said:
The reason for the tail number is not so you can verify it on the guys plane, its so you can DISTINGUISH between two Cessna's in the air at the same time. It's part of standard radio technique, and it's REQUIRED when communicating with ATC.
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That is the reasoning, but that is more for ATC than for other pilots. At an untowered airport, knowing there is a Cessna on short final and another on the 45° to enter downwind is enough, I don't need to know their tail numbers to tell them apart.

Position is critical, tail number not so much.
 
Agreed!


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Ghery said:
All this reminds me of the first time I used the radio in the plane when I was a student. Both my CFI and I were Extra class amateur radio operators. You'd think I would know how to talk on the radio. You'd think incorrectly. That was in 2000 and I think the guys in the tower are still laughing. I don't remember what I said, but whatever it was it sure wasn't right. Don't worry, it's a different lingo than you are used to at this point. You'll figure it out. Then it will be second nature. In the meantime, have fun learning. :yes:
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Dido!


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bullwinkle said:
That is the reasoning, but that is more for ATC than for other pilots. At an untowered airport, knowing there is a Cessna on short final and another on the 45° to enter downwind is enough, I don't need to know their tail numbers to tell them apart.

Position is critical, tail number not so much.
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Since the tail number is used in controlled airspace, why unlearn the use of it? Consider if you can see the traffic, you need no radio info at all...but it's still good to have it...it costs no more to give out the make/tail#.

You are referring to guys near or in the pattern, another same model aircraft can be enroute and make initial call at any time. Wanna drop some useless information? Leave out all the prepositions like 'to' and 'from' and 'on' and 'ing' from all verbs.
 
To further push this off topic: how many of you say what you're flying in? Do you just say the type, or the color, something else? I've been announcing the whole tail number, but I don't think that would be as useful to someone trying to see me as "red and white cessna 150":confused:
 
JoeFromKS said:
To further push this off topic: how many of you say what you're flying in? Do you just say the type, or the color, something else? I've been announcing the whole tail number, but I don't think that would be as useful to someone trying to see me as "red and white cessna 150":confused:
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ATC expects the make and full tail number on initial contact. If approach or the tower shortens your tail number, you are allowed to shorten it too. If not, repeat the whole thing.

Sometimes ATC will ask you for the type of your aircraft if they don't recognize your make. In a Cessna you may never hear that, in my Flight Design I get it at each new airfield. They need to know your make/type so they can assess your performance levels.
 
I always have to provide my type code to ATC.
Towers never ask but just call me whatever.

"Tampico 6PC inbound with the numbers"
"Alright Golden Eagle 6PC"

One time @ Alliance doing TnG and they kept calling me Cirrus
I was all "How dare you call me that. I hate those planes"

Then the tower mumbled something about class envy. :)
 
JoeFromKS said:
To further push this off topic: how many of you say what you're flying in? Do you just say the type, or the color, something else? I've been announcing the whole tail number, but I don't think that would be as useful to someone trying to see me as "red and white cessna 150":confused:
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Just like 95% of everyone else out here I use my abbreviated tail number. But I hear "Yellow Warrior" and "Red Mooney" from time to time and I don't have a problem with it. "Yellow Warrior" is more informative than "Piper 74T" which could be anything from a Cub to a Cheyenne.
 
docmirror said:
I would have keyed the mike every 10 seconds and work the words "left final" Or "left short final" or "left rollout" or "left clear of runway". Basically, the word left would be in every radio transmission I made until I shut down.

But - that's just me.
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I would have done the same thing. But maybe I am a dick. :)
I only a short time ago was that student pilot, saying left/right final. I know how rattled something like that would have made me. And no one likes to make mistakes, hopefully it doesnt sour this student on flying altogether.
 
So when flying a flight design, can you just call out "Approach, Sperm Cell N1234 inbound to land with Echo"?


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LDJones said:
AOPA and others have adopted the concept of mentoring....same concept.

I've had students use "Left Final"....I just smile, realizing its a fairly easy error since I encourage use of "Left Crosswind", "Left Downwind", etc. Our closest uncontrolled field uses left traffic for 30, and right traffic for 12, so adding the pattern side aids awareness. You can argue hearing "Left Final" would let me know the pattern side he flew....but I teach just "Final, 30"
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Does that mean they came in from a left downwind or they are turning left onto final? I don't see clarity, I see confusion by adding left/ right.
 
When I did it, once, during training, I was just proud of myself for even remembering to make the position calls. Then my CFI said, "Uhh, you know, there is just one 'final'."
 
CTLSi said:
What's bad is how the ones that are like that are influencing the new pilots who may be taking tips from them...
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As long as nobody takes tips from YOU, we'll be pretty far down the road.
 
Matthew said:
When I did it, once, during training, I was just proud of myself for even remembering to make the position calls. Then my CFI said, "Uhh, you know, there is just one 'final'."
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I did it once too during training, "turning left final". CFI informed me, I haven't said it since. pretty simple, no need to be a d!ck. however, like bart said, "5 year ago eman1200" would def have told that dude to go fark himself. I don't consider that arguing.
 
bartmc said:
I took a coworker up for a flight, less than a week later he's at the FBO signed up for lessons. He's 25 hours in and comes to me today to ask about correct terminology when self announcing a turn to final. I'm wondering why, out of all the PPL course material, he's worrying about something this inconsequential. Apparently, someone called him a "moron" for announcing "left final" and proceed to give him a lesson on why there was no such thing as "left final" while he's trying to land as a 25 hour student pilot. He asked what I would have done and in the interest of being honest over giving good advice I said "I'd have told him to go **** himself and express his concerns on the ground since short final wasn't the place to have a terminology debate.
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Ridiculous. Calling someone a moron on frequency is completely uncalled for.
 
JoeFromKS said:
To further push this off topic: how many of you say what you're flying in? Do you just say the type, or the color, something else? I've been announcing the whole tail number, but I don't think that would be as useful to someone trying to see me as "red and white cessna 150":confused:
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I just say "Skyhawk".
 
cowman said:
I always see all these people griping about certain terminology used on the radio, and I do see why you want to keep things uniform for clarity and brevity but the primary reason for having radios is to communicate.

Did your radio transmission communicate what you needed someone else to know? If so, then good enough.
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I'm at the stage of my learning process where I'm doing almost all the radio work...and still invariably getting something wrong with almost every transmission. My CFI corrects me gently, so I'm getting better -- but he shares your opinion that if the message got through, that's what counts. And making students too nervous to try doesn't help their learning.

I'm lucky that nobody's ever given me grief about it over the air. Even the tower is pretty welcoming: they know the call numbers of the planes belonging to the flight school, and do their best to make things friendly for students.

OTOH: It may also be a Seattle thing. People don't tolerate rudeness much here.
 
Sac Arrow said:
Just like 95% of everyone else out here I use my abbreviated tail number. But I hear "Yellow Warrior" and "Red Mooney" from time to time and I don't have a problem with it. "Yellow Warrior" is more informative than "Piper 74T" which could be anything from a Cub to a Cheyenne.
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I was southbound into Cody, WY KCOD, not used to the great western visibility and looking way past the airport.

"Cessna 1234 departing Cody."
"Mooney 123, 8 miles north of Cody inbound, looking for traffic."
"Cessna 1234 departing Cody eastbound."
"Mooney 123, 5 miles north of Cody, no joy on departing Cessna."
"Cessna 12 . . . CITATION 1234 is out of Cody eastbound."
After turning my head almost 90 degrees left,
"Mooney 123, traffic in sight climbing over the mountains."

Sometimes brand and number are just not enough! Had he called "Citation" the first time, I could have concentrated on finding the blooming field instead of looking for a slow-climbing Skylane so I could stay away from him.
 
Hank S said:
I was southbound into Cody, WY KCOD, not used to the great western visibility and looking way past the airport.

"Cessna 1234 departing Cody."
"Mooney 123, 8 miles north of Cody inbound, looking for traffic."
"Cessna 1234 departing Cody eastbound."
"Mooney 123, 5 miles north of Cody, no joy on departing Cessna."
"Cessna 12 . . . CITATION 1234 is out of Cody eastbound."
After turning my head almost 90 degrees left,
"Mooney 123, traffic in sight climbing over the mountains."

Sometimes brand and number are just not enough! Had he called "Citation" the first time, I could have concentrated on finding the blooming field instead of looking for a slow-climbing Skylane so I could stay away from him.
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I think it inconsiderate for a Citation pilot to use Cessna. Forget what the AIM says that you can use either; this is a case where it is better to say Citation all the time.
 
For clarification, I always say "Arrow 3SA", not "Piper 3SA" although admittedly if I'm in a 172 I'll call myself "Cessna." I think "Cessna" works fine for anything from a 150 to a 210, Caravan excepted.
 
bullwinkle said:
That is the reasoning, but that is more for ATC than for other pilots. At an untowered airport, knowing there is a Cessna on short final and another on the 45° to enter downwind is enough, I don't need to know their tail numbers to tell them apart.

Position is critical, tail number not so much.
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The tail number could help one to become aware that it's two different Cessnas, however.
 
Palmpilot said:
The tail number could help one to become aware that it's two different Cessnas, however.
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It could. I'm not saying you should not transmit that information. Just that in the grand scheme of things, it's probably the *least* important part of a position report.
 
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