State of GA

[Jay Honeck]

I'd say it's not one thing, but an amalgam of many things mentioned. Time and money are always in limited supply. Xbox(et al) has made devastating inroads in the youth's time, and also money. My kids never owned or played video games but on the lower income side I see Xbox(et al) as a real problem for youth.

Next we come to a regulatory aspect. Don't discount this. We've all pretty much come across that person who wonders why we are "allowed" to fly anywhere we want any time we want without some kind of 'control' being exercised over us. It seems that the younger generation are much more ok with a central authority making and enforcing regulations on almost every aspect of their lives. Heck, there was a story in yahoo a few days ago about a parent going to jail for letting their kid walk home from school. WTF? No one can say we have fewer rules that 10 years ago, and more are coming. My favorite whipping boy is the fact that when I fly a GA plane, I'm required to get authorization from my govt to LEAVE the country. Not by ground, or water, but only by air. We are being regulated into a tiny corner of the published BOR, and anything outside of those exact words are being beauracratized to death.

Finally, I think that GA was oversold as a method of reliable, safe, and timely transportation like a car. The truth is, it requires an order of magnitude more training than a car, is not as useful(load, comfort, convenience) in most cases, and the only redeeming value to it is that it's 2 or 3 or 4 times faster than driving. I think this was best driven home with the statement made by Ercoupe. In the 40s, you could theoretically go down to the local Sears outlet, and buy an Ercoupe, and they would sign you up with an instructor, and in a few weeks, you'd be hauling wife/GF around the skies to exciting destinations. The reality was that the Ercoupe would only go ~85MPH, it was cramped, hot, bumpy, and noisy, you couldn't carry much more than a small picnic basket, and when you got to the other end you had to arrange for a rental car, or have a friend haul you around on the ground. It just didn't work back then, and it doesn't work much better now.

I agree with much of what you say, but I still find VFR daytime flying to be a superior method of transportation to driving. And our RV-8 gets better gas mileage than my Ford truck.

I met a young Hispanic guy at the hotel last week who was astounded that we owned and routinely flew our own plane to San Antonio (his hometown) for dinner. To him, it was like space travel, and he immediately assumed we were wealthy beyond measure.

His Dodge dually was parked in the hotel's temporary parking check-in spot. I could see the custom wheels and the after-market lights, pointed to it, and asked how much he had tied up in his truck?

His answer: $67,000! And he pulls his boat with it.

When I told him that he could buy a really nice personal airplane for LESS, he just laughed. I don't think he ever believed me.

We have just done a terrible job of marketing GA to guys like him. He's got the money, but his preconceived notion of the exclusivity of GA has kept him from even considering it.

 

[Bill Watson]

IMO At home playing Nintendo with no real desire to go outside!

I think this hits it on the head.

Aviation used to be hot, leading edge stuff. Digital electronics is where the heat is now; it's where the money is, it's where jobs are, it's where innovation happens, it's what we use today to envision how tomorrow will look.

Seems to me there are three types of people who fly little airplanes now a days:

The people who do it for a living, or can use the airplane in their business
The people who have lots of money.
The people who just want to fly, and will make any sacrifice needed to fly, including living in a smaller house, driving a cheaper car, etc.

So why, if nothing has changed, and there are so many more citizens, is GA dying on the vine?

But everything has changed and GA is just not as exciting as it seemed in the post-war era. Aircraft in every backyard? - didn't happen. Computer in every pocket? We're kind of there.

When my journey started, computers were very, very expensive and primitive, planes were relatively cheap and were being produced in relatively large numbers. Demand seems insatiable so computers are now very cheap, sophisticated and produced in large numbers. GA aircraft, not so much. Not sure why we expect something different given supply and demand and the impact on costs.

But flying has never been better for this pilot. I was able to buy and build the plane of my dreams. I am able to use the best ATC system in the world at taxpayer expense. I have avionics that few could dream of last century. It's expensive like a boat but I chose an aviation lifestyle instead. My car is 20 years old and I fish from a Jon boat.

I guess I'd love it if every other person owned a plane because everything would be cheaper but on the other hand, I don't mind having different interests than most.

 

[docmirror]

We have just done a terrible job of marketing GA to guys like him. He's got the money, but his preconceived notion of the exclusivity of GA has kept him from even considering it.

Well, yes and no. My example was from a time and era when GA was marketed strongly. We had half a dozen or more builders competing for consumer dollars, and there were some real bargains back then. Aviation was new, it was exciting, it was fast(haha), it was de-riguer(sp?). In the late 40s, was the time when GA should have taken off like personal cars took off in the 20s and 30s. The sky was the limit, almost literally, and companies like Ford, and Dodge were watching the GA market back then carefully. Ford looked pretty close at building planes on an asm line, but it just never made financial sense. Maybe if he had put a plane out, things would be different, and there would be a small strip in each little town or burg where you could land within a mile of most homes. But, even with all the hype back then, it didn't pan out.

It's more than marketing. It's utility. The 1948 Packard could hold an easy 70MPH, and big, fast roads were built built between major cities cutting down the travel time on the ground to fractions of what it was before the interstate. Boston to NY was no longer a full day trip by car, and taking a private plane was only marginally faster than the Packard, or even a Chevy Deluxe which could keep up at 60 or better in most cases back in the mid 40s.

GA didn't provide a quantum benefit over the private car. It still doesn't, and all the marketing in the world won't help. LSA has been the best thing to happen to GA in decades. I hope it brings in more people, but I won't hold my breath.

 

[Direct C51]

I agree with much of what you say, but I still find VFR daytime flying to be a superior method of transportation to driving. And our RV-8 gets better gas mileage than my Ford truck.

Unless you burn MOGAS this is the silliest justification pilots use. Sure you get 1 MPG more than your truck, the problem is that G cost $6.50 in the plane and $3.47 in the truck. What's your MPDollar comparison?

 

[N5922S]

It's not just single mothers. There's plenty of males raising younger males who spend all their free time on the sofa playing XBox.

More power to 'em of that's what they want out of life.

I'm amazed when I listen to co-workers who's only entertainment is video games. They spend a LOT of money on them.

It's their money and a Free country but I'd be bored to death. One of them about lost his mind when Comcast ran into some problem installing in his new apartment and took an extra day.

I don't think he was kidding when he said he "couldn't live without high speed Internet".

Dunno. Seems a bit sad to me, but it's up to them.

Oh sh**, you're right. Please excuse me for a moment while I slash my wrists.

 

[Dav8or]

you tell em what you paid and the get the "oh nevermind" look.

And that's just for the cert.

It's more like the "You're F'in insane!" look. All the while they think to themselves, "You pay how much to risk your life in that death trap??!!"

Due to an expanded and a technologically more sophisticated mass media, piston GA has an exaggerated risk reputation. While there is no denying that piston GA is statistically more risky than most other everyday risks, it is blown out of proportion with media sensationalism and their magnifying glass. I am certain this kills a lot of potential pilot starts. How many spouses tell their other, "There is no way you are doing that!"?

This combined with the cost, regulation and competing activities, is knocking down our ranks. The instructor thing is like was posted above. It is a hard way to make a living in most areas, so those that are very good and have a reputation have a lock on the market. Those that are new at it give up and find a way to make real money. This creates the illusion that there are lots of people training, but that really isn't the case.

The hangar thing is similar. The cost of new hangar construction is high, so in this shrinking GA environment nobody is going to build anymore. Because only the counties, or cities own the land the hangar sits on, most people are dissuaded from building their own hangar. So there may not be enough hangars at your field to accommodate all those that want one. However, I'm finding that to no be the case so much anymore. I'm seeing more and more "for rent" signs than I ever did. The flyers on the bulletin boards don't have many little tabs torn off.

There is the problem of people abusing the hangars by using them for cheap bulk storage and non aviation usage, but the good news is the FAA is cracking down on this practice and at my little airport, it has resulted in available hangars... that have been hard to fill.

At my airport, there are two kinds of hangars, county owned and privately owned. The county owns all the land. The county hangars are the newest and the nicest as well as the cheapest. These hangars have an average 7 year waiting list.

The private hangars are old Port a Port T hangars that are rusty and leaky, cost more than the county and at present there are 3 available. They have been for months. No wait. In addition, many of our tie downs are being vacated. I see this all over California.

Hangars are available for those that really want them and can afford them. Cheap hangars still either don't exist, or there is a wait. I keep expecting the cost of the private hangars to come down and they have a little, but not as much as I would hope. I guess people want what they want.

There is also the case of the existing tenants, If a guy has been paying $350 a month for years and the landlord is forced to lower the price on his empty units to $250 due to market forces, he stands to either lose a fair amount of money, or anger his long time tenant. This might be a factor in why prices don't seem to be falling much... so far. Eventually as the airport becomes more and more of a ghost town, the prices will have to fall.

No doubt in my mind. GA is shrinking. I see it everywhere I fly.

 

[FormerHangie]

Ha! Thank you to those that cleared up my confusing topic line in my absence. Yes, I am from Benbrook, TX. Just SW of Fort Worth.

Jay, that really is a very depressing picture you paint, and that certainly answers the questions about the hangars. That baffled me more than anything. I could see why the instructor pool could fluctuate, but hangars are more durable, so now I know. Thank you.

And, FWIW, I've never been to Georgia, but as a Texans, we tend to look down on everything, so there's nothing special about that.

You should come visit Georgia, it's nice. If you like outdoorsy things, there good fishing, hiking, biking, and paddling in the north Georgia mountains. Also, the world's largest hang gliding school is in north Georgia. You can fly the glider solo on the training hills in the morning, and get an aerotow tandem flight at altitude with an instructor in the afternoon. If you would rather go clubbing, the Buckhead district in Atlanta has more bars in one area than just about any other city that I can think of. Finally, if you're a runner, enter the Peachtree Road Race next spring. It's held on July 4th. Just you and 59,999 of your closest friends running down Peachtree Street from the Lenox area to Piedmont Park in Midtown.

Back to your question on the state of GA, here's a couple of links you may find interesting:

FAA airmen statistics: http://www.faa.gov/data_research/aviation_data_statistics/civil_airmen_statistics/2013/

If you don't care to go through those, I can summarize by saying that the number of ATPs is growing slowly, the number of commercial pilots is declining slowly, and the number of private + sport pilots is declining steadily. The total number of students got a one time bump in 2010 and is remaining static, while the number of student starts has been in a range for the last 10 years, excepting last year when that declined about 10 percent.

Aviation fuel supplied: http://www.eia.gov/dnav/pet/hist/LeafHandler.ashx?n=pet&s=mgaupus1&f=m

This is a good proxy for the amount of avgas that has left the refinery system and is in the hands of the distributors. It is very volatile month to month, but over time shows that the amount of avgas being sold is declining. It was holding fairly steady during the first decade of this century until the Great Recession. It trickled up a bit during the early part of the recovery, then fell something like nine percent during 2012 and 2013, and is off about five percent this year. How much of that is due to operators replacing piston equipment with turbine and how much is due to less flying going on, I can't say.

I know there are some people who think that replacing Part 23 with something like the ASTM certification used for Light Sport will help, I personally am skeptical. Considering that a new RV-12 costs $120,000, I just can't see a four seater selling for less than $250,000 fully equipped. That's still too much to get much volume going.

There are some people that think that general aviation is dying. I don't think it is dying, but it is shrinking. Flying an airplane doesn't have the cachet it once did, and the percent of the population that can afford it is decreasing as well. I suspect that the truly well off that once would learn to fly and buy a Bonanza or a light twin would now rather just get a NetJets account, as that group's income has grown phenomenally, but that's just a guess.

As far as what can be done to make aviation cool again, I have no suggestions. Sorry.

 

[txflyer]

My son and I call it "the vagination of America"

That's what's killing GA. We're not raising men anymore, we're raising obedient little metro-sexual surf's who grow up to be ward's of the State or some masculine woman's man-*****.

Even if they grow up and get money, flying would interfere with their social networking or Mr. Mom time ...

 

[Bill Watson]

I like women, I like vaginas and I like to fly.

Just sayin'

 

[Dav8or]

Everybody seems to want kids to take up flying. How are these kids supposed to afford it? Go down to the airport and wash planes? How much are you willing to pay that kid to wash your plane? How often do you need it washed? How many can they realistically do a day? Flight training costs about $150 an hour for a basic trainer, fuel and instructor. To get the PPL, that's a lot of washing.

All this whining about video games and momma's boys is ridiculous. When I was a kid they used to gripe about how "All these kids want to do is sit inside and watch cartoons. All this TV is rotting their brains!" It was a load of crap then and it's a load of crap now. Turn off cranky Grandpa mode and really have a look around. There are lots of kids, outside, doing pretty dangerous stuff that we would never have dreamed of. The difference is, it is cheap to do.

It's all about the money. If flying were as cheap as skateboarding they would do it. If flying were as cheap as BMX bikes they would do it. Hell, if flying were as cheap as dirt motorcycles they would do it. Other than perhaps a drug addiction, flying has got to be the most expensive activity a kid could take up.

 

[txflyer]

I'll admit, if my Dad hadn't encouraged me and laid out the ~$500.00 it cost back in the seventies for me to PPL, I probably wouldn't have done it.

I didn't have the dough.

It was plainly simple as that. No dough, no go.

 

[docmirror]

I like women, I like vaginas and I like to fly.

Just sayin'

Signature material right there...

 

[FormerHangie]

Everybody seems to want kids to take up flying. How are these kids supposed to afford it? Go down to the airport and wash planes? How much are you willing to pay that kid to wash your plane? How often do you need it washed? How many can they realistically do a day? Flight training costs about $150 an hour for a basic trainer, fuel and instructor. To get the PPL, that's a lot of washing.

All this whining about video games and momma's boys is ridiculous. When I was a kid they used to gripe about how "All these kids want to do is sit inside and watch cartoons. All this TV is rotting their brains!" It was a load of crap then and it's a load of crap now. Turn off cranky Grandpa mode and really have a look around. There are lots of kids, outside, doing pretty dangerous stuff that we would never have dreamed of. The difference is, it is cheap to do.

It's all about the money. If flying were as cheap as skateboarding they would do it. If flying were as cheap as BMX bikes they would do it. Hell, if flying were as cheap as dirt motorcycles they would do it. Other than perhaps a drug addiction, flying has got to be the most expensive activity a kid could take up.

+1 The average age of a student pilot has decreased over the last decade. It's now down to... 31.5.

I have two daughters, one is aged 12 and one is 14. Nearly all the boys in their age group play a sport, and nearly all of the girls have one major activity, either a sport, or cheerleading or dance. Not surprisingly, none fly.

I went to a private high school back in the 70's, and I knew precisely one of my schoolmates who took some flying lessons. Most of the time, it was men between 25 and 40 who learned to fly, excepting those who were trying to make a career of flying.

 

[docmirror]

If there ever was a teen age kid around my small field looking for work, I'd pay him $100 for a decent wash job. We just don't have any kids who want that kind of outdoor, real hands on work. They are all inside getting blisters from Xbox.

Oh, and when I used to watch Tom & Jerry, or Foghorn Leghorn, I didn't have to pay directly for any of the content. Cap'n Crunch, and Snickers etc paid for my content.

Yeah, it's expensive, but it's not out of the realm for a hungry kid to do it. The other problem is the self-fulfilling prophesy. There are no kids at the airport to wash planes, cause there are fewer planes and pilots willing to have their plane washed. The rural airport is no longer a destination, or even a possible stop on the way to Walmart nowadays.

Things change, we get more 'advanced' I guess. If I had a teen, who needed some cash I'd have him make up a sign on Sat and go down to the airport, see if he can get some folks interested. Sigh - I'm guessing he'd sit there for 3-4 hours waiting for someone to show up and have a dirty plane to wash.

 

[FloridaPilot]

In my opinion,

GA might be shrinking but eventually Air travel as a whole is going to go down with it. We are going to slowly not rely on airplanes anymore. Fuel is expensive, Parts are expensive, (You heard all of these before).

I don't have a crystal ball but there are plenty plans out there to transport people from one place to another faster, (What people like)cheaper (What people also like) and on the ground, (What people also like). If you can get from LA to New York in 45 mins for $100 would you do it? I sure would:

http://news.msn.com/rumors/rumor-high-speed-tube-travel-concept-in-the-works

If this company gets a change to build and what they say about travel is true. That is going to change the whole airline industry. It will change how we send packages across the country, imagine getting your package the same day you ordered it? It will change how passengers travel, people are scared of flying because of how the media conditions them if they can stay on the ground and travel 3 times as fast for cheaper? they would be all over it....It's all a matter of time.

Now I know this is not going to happen overnight and I can get a chance to enjoy the wonders of flight but the writing is on the wall and the signs are there but I'm going to enjoy flying while I can.

 

[Neal Howard]

Here in north central Texas (Wichita Falls), all the hangars are full of planes, but the amount of actual small airplane general aviation flying done is about 50% of what it used to be when I passed my checkride back in 2000. My little airport used to be a bustle of local flying activity every weekend, but anymore about all the flying done is when someone is going on a trip.

 

[FloridaPilot]

I agree with much of what you say, but I still find VFR daytime flying to be a superior method of transportation to driving. And our RV-8 gets better gas mileage than my Ford truck.

I met a young Hispanic guy at the hotel last week who was astounded that we owned and routinely flew our own plane to San Antonio (his hometown) for dinner. To him, it was like space travel, and he immediately assumed we were wealthy beyond measure.

His Dodge dually was parked in the hotel's temporary parking check-in spot. I could see the custom wheels and the after-market lights, pointed to it, and asked how much he had tied up in his truck?

His answer: $67,000! And he pulls his boat with it.

When I told him that he could buy a really nice personal airplane for LESS, he just laughed. I don't think he ever believed me.

We have just done a terrible job of marketing GA to guys like him. He's got the money, but his preconceived notion of the exclusivity of GA has kept him from even considering it.

Jay,

If you trust him and you see him again, take him up on a flight for 20 mins, (Like an intro flight) You might just change the whole direction of his life.

 

[txflyer]

There's a reason you don't see young smart entrepreneurial plane washers.

It's hard work on a hot ramp for little pay. The smart one's figure it out beforehand, and the dumb one's after a plane or two.

I try my hardest to encourage young people to fly, and offer a ride to any who demonstrate they're really interested, but short of offering to pay for the lessons, what can you do? You can't drag them down to the nearest FS and enroll them.

 

[docmirror]

In my opinion,

GA might be shrinking but eventually Air travel as a whole is going to go down with it. We are going to slowly not rely on airplanes anymore. Fuel is expensive, Parts are expensive, (You heard all of these before).

I don't have a crystal ball but there are plenty plans out there to transport people from one place to another faster, (What people like)cheaper (What people also like) and on the ground, (What people also like). If you can get from LA to New York in 45 mins for $100 would you do it? I sure would:

http://news.msn.com/rumors/rumor-high-speed-tube-travel-concept-in-the-works

If this company gets a change to build and what they say about travel is true. That is going to change the whole airline industry. It will change how we send packages across the country, imagine getting your package the same day you ordered it? It will change how passengers travel, people are scared of flying because of how the media conditions them if they can stay on the ground and travel 3 times as fast for cheaper? they would be all over it....It's all a matter of time.

Now I know this is not going to happen overnight and I can get a chance to enjoy the wonders of flight but the writing is on the wall and the signs are there but I'm going to enjoy flying while I can.

Uh -- I'd like to go on record that this is the vaporist of vaporware. The cost involved in an evacuated tube maglev is hundreds of millions of dollars per mile. By the time the US govt got involved, that number could easily be a billion dollars per mile. Notwithstanding, the power needed to run it, and the safety systems to keep it powered and evacuated under any/all conditions along the 2800 mile route.

No offense meant, really - but the infrastructure costs to do this trip are beyond staggering. A ballistic shot into outer space and re-entry would be cheaper by far.

 

[Bill Watson]

I'll admit, if my Dad hadn't encouraged me and laid out the ~$500.00 it cost back in the seventies for me to PPL, I probably wouldn't have done it.

I didn't have the dough.

It was plainly simple as that. No dough, no go.

My Dad and his friend had a lifelong interest in aviation (and electronics and engines and...). They become RC modelers at a time when the everything was scratch built including the radio equipment.

My brother and I picked it up and we both developed a lifelong love of all things that aviate. I was fortunate and was given about 20 hours of free flight instruction before going off to college.

No dough in school so no flying but I had life goals that all involved flying something. Without the models and early some lessons, aviation would probably not be in my life. That's why it's productive to plant the seed when young.

 

[FloridaPilot]

I'll admit, if my Dad hadn't encouraged me and laid out the ~$500.00 it cost back in the seventies for me to PPL, I probably wouldn't have done it.

I didn't have the dough.

It was plainly simple as that. No dough, no go.

Nowadays,

Playstation 4 (When it first came out) $500.00

Iphone 5 (When it first came out) $600.00

New release video games 60 to 70 a pop.

If there is a genuine interest in flight the kids will find a way. Why hasn't R/C airplanes took an interest if it was all about price? I next to never see a kid flying a park flyer. I know because I still fly mine and the R/C stores I have been to in FL sell more car stuff then airplane stuff. The prices hasn't changed much though.

 

[Bonchie]

Crazy hyper-speed tunnels may not be coming, but high speed rail is.

They just got the OK to build one between Dallas and Houston now for the feds. 90 minutes en route. Right now it's about an hour flight ground to ground and that's if there isn't bad congestion (and there always is going into DFW).

How cost effective it will be early on for passengers is another matter.

 

[Cpt_Kirk]

My son and I call it "the vagination of America"

That's what's killing GA. We're not raising men anymore, we're raising obedient little metro-sexual surf's who grow up to be ward's of the State or some masculine woman's man-*****.

Even if they grow up and get money, flying would interfere with their social networking or Mr. Mom time ...

I agree... and laughed at that picture. I, unfortunately, know people like that.

Jay,

If you trust him and you see him again, take him up on a flight for 20 mins, (Like an intro flight) You might just change the whole direction of his life.

No. He has his truck. That's his thing.

You can't just bring anyone up and expect them to love it. Cater to people who actually show interest. Don't throw your money away.

 

[FloridaPilot]

My Dad and his friend had a lifelong interest in aviation (and electronics and engines and...). They become RC modelers at a time when the everything was scratch built including the radio equipment.

My brother and I picked it up and we both developed a lifelong love of all things that aviate. I was fortunate and was given about 20 hours of free flight instruction before going off to college.

No dough in school so no flying but I had life goals that all involved flying something. Without the models and early some lessons, aviation would probably not be in my life. That's why it's productive to plant the seed when young.

 

[FloridaPilot]

Uh -- I'd like to go on record that this is the vaporist of vaporware. The cost involved in an evacuated tube maglev is hundreds of millions of dollars per mile. By the time the US govt got involved, that number could easily be a billion dollars per mile. Notwithstanding, the power needed to run it, and the safety systems to keep it powered and evacuated under any/all conditions along the 2800 mile route.

No offense meant, really - but the infrastructure costs to do this trip are beyond staggering. A ballistic shot into outer space and re-entry would be cheaper by far.

No offense taken!

Of course there are issues to be ironed out, always will be no such thing as a perfect solution. It will start out small in the major cities and then spread out from there. Even if it's more expensive than flying and you can travel from one coast to another in 45 mins companies are going to invest in it because time is money that would be huge for business. The prices will tinkle down to the consumer.

Again, this is not going to happen overnight but it's bound to happen if not this then something comparable.

 

[txflyer]

My Dad and his friend had a lifelong interest in aviation (and electronics and engines and...). They become RC modelers at a time when the everything was scratch built including the radio equipment.

My brother and I picked it up and we both developed a lifelong love of all things that aviate. I was fortunate and was given about 20 hours of free flight instruction before going off to college.

No dough in school so no flying but I had life goals that all involved flying something. Without the models and early some lessons, aviation would probably not be in my life. That's why it's productive to plant the seed when young.

I don't remember when or how the flying bug hit me, but I do remember riding around on my bicycle collecting coke bottles for the four cents or whatever it was back then, so I could scrounge up enough change to buy the latest Mattel F-104 Starfighter and glue it together.

That's it.

It was the glue.

 

[flytime]

I just finished my PPL training a couple months ago, and the total cost from 3rd class medical certificate all the way through to the checkride was just a little over $11,000. And I finished in pretty good time at 46 hours. That kind of investment in a hobby is pretty daunting to a lot of people.

 

[Jay Honeck]

I just finished my PPL training a couple months ago, and the total cost from 3rd class medical certificate all the way through to the checkride was just a little over $11,000. And I finished in pretty good time at 46 hours. That kind of investment in a hobby is pretty daunting to a lot of people.

Did you train in a T-28? Good grief!

It would seem that you paid almost $240/hour. You either trained with Chuck Yeager (who would probably charge $120/hour just to sign your cap), or you rented a really, REALLY nice airplane?

 

[tsts4]

I think the state of GA has corrected to what it always would have been had it not been for WWII. Flying has always been expensive relative to earned income. So in my mind the 30-year post-war period was the GA anomaly that artificially spiked the supply of pilots and therefore the demand for aviation related products . Now that the greatest generation is essentially done flying, the whole GA environment is contracting down to its natural level. My only hope is it’s doesn’t contract much further or simple economics will kill it for good for an average Joe like me.

 

[jspilot]

Nice photo,

Somehow we have to inspire kids to fly. The Top Gun movie did it in the 80's

I genuinely dislike these threads each time they pop up because they make me upset and I truly hate hearing over and over how "the world is not what it used to be." That's what listening to my Grandfather tell stories is for. Anyway, I will still chime in on this point.

I'm a school teacher by trade. I teach middle school kids and I can tell you that kids are interessted in flying. I have a little model 172 on my desk that I put there so kids may take notice. They love the thing and it never stays on my desk long during free time. Each year the students I have say" wow that's so cool you are a pilot. That must be awesome!" It's genuine, believe me. I've taught them basic aviation stuff like what makes planes fly, the four forces of flight...things like that and they eat it up. We have paper airplane contests and so forth, they love it. So it's not a lack of interest or motivation in kids these days that's crushing general aviations future.

I'll offer a real reason other than the obvious "It costs to much."( which is the beginning and the end of this conversation honestly). A reason why general aviation is in the state it is in is the pilots from the world war two era were trained to be pilots by the government in mass and took those skills back into society when the war was over. Aviation seeped into the general populations sub conscious because so many more pilots were out there anoungst the people. So it was way more likely that " your dad was a pilot, your uncle was a pilot..." Todays generation does not have that same connection or exposure to General aviation. One of the reasons I think my students think it's cool I'm a pilot is because they have never met a pilot before( and for most of them, it's true-- very few say to me after discovering I'm a pilot say" oh my uncle was/is a pilot too.") You can't expect many of these kids to gravitate towards something they have almost no connection to.

 

[Alexb2000]

Did you train in a T-28? Good grief!

It would seem that you paid almost $240/hour. You either trained with Chuck Yeager (who would probably charge $120/hour just to sign your cap), or you rented a really, REALLY nice airplane?

I thought that number was realistic. I just looked up the rental rates at my home field, $160 per in a 172 + $50 per instructor. That plus headsets, materials, etc. Seems like you could get there.

I agree that's a lot for most people, especially when it only qualifies you to…. keep paying rental fees for a couple of years.

 

[FormerHangie]

I thought that number was realistic. I just looked up the rental rates at my home field, $160 per in a 172 + $50 per instructor. That plus headsets, materials, etc. Seems like you could get there.

I agree that's a lot for most people, especially when it only qualifies you to…. keep paying rental fees for a couple of years.

One of our larger FBOs has a page with estimated private ticket costs: http://www.lanierflightcenter.com/flight-training/private-pilot-training/ . The range is from $11,500 to $15,000, depending on which aircraft you choose and whether or not you want to prepay your training. They're a little higher than some of the other schools, you could probably deduct $30 per hour for 172SP rental or $10 off the Skycatcher (other schools would have a 152) for some of the other places, but everything else would similar. Maybe you could get done for $9000 if you were a quick study, had a good bit of schedule flexibility and had decent weather luck, but I wouldn't plan on it.

 

[Jimmy cooper]

I genuinely dislike these threads each time they pop up because they make me upset and I truly hate hearing over and over how "the world is not what it used to be." That's what listening to my Grandfather tell stories is for. Anyway, I will still chime in on this point.

I'm a school teacher by trade. I teach middle school kids and I can tell you that kids are interessted in flying. I have a little model 172 on my desk that I put there so kids may take notice. They love the thing and it never stays on my desk long during free time. Each year the students I have say" wow that's so cool you are a pilot. That must be awesome!" It's genuine, believe me. I've taught them basic aviation stuff like what makes planes fly, the four forces of flight...things like that and they eat it up. We have paper airplane contests and so forth, they love it. So it's not a lack of interest or motivation in kids these days that's crushing
I'll offer a real reason other than the obvious "It costs to much."( which is the beginning and the end of this conversation honestly). A reason why general aviation is in the state it is in is the pilots from the world war two era were trained to be pilots by the government in mass and took those skills back into society when the war was over. Aviation seeped into the general populations sub conscious because so many more pilots were out there anoungst the people. So it was way more likely that " your dad was a pilot, your uncle was a pilot..." Todays generation does not have that same connection or exposure to General aviation. One of the reasons I think my students think it's cool I'm a pilot is because they have never met a pilot before( and for most of them, it's true-- very few say to me after discovering I'm a pilot say" oh my uncle was/is a pilot too.") You can't expect many of these kids to gravitate towards something they have almost no connection to.

many many pilots and air crews from WW2 never wanted to see another airplane after the war due to the terrible loss of life. The GI bill was what kept private aviation alive after the war and for quite some time. The small airport with a grass strip , kept alive by the GI bill is now a housing development. Check the price of a new bonanza lately?! The first ones were around 9 grand! millions more good paying jobs, now gone over seas. It's easy to understand how GA has gone down if you were there and watched it happen. Most WW2 pilots did not transition to airlines as the pay was lousy back then. Instead they too took advantage of the GI bill and went to college.

 

[Mike Smith]

Wow, I have it good. I pay $110 for either a decent 172 or a PA28-151. Instructor time is 45.


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[flytime]

Did you train in a T-28? Good grief!

It would seem that you paid almost $240/hour. You either trained with Chuck Yeager (who would probably charge $120/hour just to sign your cap), or you rented a really, REALLY nice airplane?

Ha! I wish!! That is just what it costs to train out of an urban area airport. 172 is $135-145/hour, depending on the panel. Instructor is $65. Add in ground school, supplies, medical exam, and checkride fee and the amount gets big in a hurry. In hindsight I could have saved a few thousand if I had trained through the flying club I now am a member of, but on the other hand I could have spent more at a competing flight school. I did actually shop around a bit before signing up.

 

[Everskyward]

I genuinely dislike these threads each time they pop up because they make me upset and I truly hate hearing over and over how "the world is not what it used to be."

I do too but for another reason. I don't think the world was ever as rosy as some make it out to be. I went to a large suburban high school in the 1970s and I don't remember one person who was taking flying lessons or who even talked about flying. Of the parents, there might have been a couple who were airline pilots but I didn't know any of them who flew a small airplane.

 

[flytime]

Wow, I have it good. I pay $110 for either a decent 172 or a PA28-151. Instructor time is 45.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

That is pretty close to the club rate that I COULD have trained at had I known better. I pay about $100/hour tach time for a 172 and our club instructors charge $45/hour. There is the buy-in of a couple thousand, but that gets refunded when you leave the club. Even at those rates I doubt I would have finished for much less than $8,000.

 

[Dav8or]

Ha! I wish!! That is just what it costs to train out of an urban area airport. 172 is $135-145/hour, depending on the panel. Instructor is $65. Add in ground school, supplies, medical exam, and checkride fee and the amount gets big in a hurry. In hindsight I could have saved a few thousand if I had trained through the flying club I now am a member of, but on the other hand I could have spent more at a competing flight school. I did actually shop around a bit before signing up.

Yep. A lot of pilots on these boards just don't seem to get that prices for services vary a lot from area to area. Anywhere along either coast of the country is pricey. In the middle of the country it is more affordable. Funny thing is, the guys in the middle of the country that have such low prices, seem to think their prices are standard everywhere.

A guy could shop around for better pricing, but when it comes to training, proximity to where you live is paramount. You're better off paying more for the close by instruction than you are saving some money and traveling for lessons. The reason why is you'll get done faster and enjoy it more.

Some will suggest moving where it's cheap, but you have to have the income to pay the ridiculously high cost of aviation. The pay is best on the coasts in general. Those that have a high income and live in the middle of the country have it well.

 

[Jay Honeck]

I drove 45 minutes on country roads to train in East Troy, WI. In the winter.

Why? Because the CFI there was hungry, and charged far less than his big-city counterpart. Getting away from big airports can save big bucks.

Strangely enough, just last night I scanned in an old pic of Bob and me. This is the CFI that was crazy enough to solo me in just 6.2 hours, and set me loose on the airways just a few months later. This pic was taken 19 years ago, at the East Troy airport, good ol' 57C.

 

[FloridaPilot]

Yep. A lot of pilots on these boards just don't seem to get that prices for services vary a lot from area to area. Anywhere along either coast of the country is pricey. In the middle of the country it is more affordable. Funny thing is, the guys in the middle of the country that have such low prices, seem to think their prices are standard everywhere.

A guy could shop around for better pricing, but when it comes to training, proximity to where you live is paramount. You're better off paying more for the close by instruction than you are saving some money and traveling for lessons. The reason why is you'll get done faster and enjoy it more.

Some will suggest moving where it's cheap, but you have to have the income to pay the ridiculously high cost of aviation. The pay is best on the coasts in general. Those that have a high income and live in the middle of the country have it well.

Here in Florida its a bit different,

I have lived in Seattle for six years so what you were saying
makes sense. (A nice house there is 400k or more)
Cost of living here in Florida is cheap but jobs arent plentiful here
not only that jobs dont pay the U.S. average so having your
own business is cruical.