State of GA

Frogs97

Frogs97

Pre-takeoff checklist
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Frogs97
I read a lot about how GA is going down and not near what it has been in years past. Not having experience in years past, I certainly can't refute it. But, I can't get instructor time to save my life, because they are always booked, and there are all kinds of wait lists for hanger space in my area. Are people going through the time and expense to get their ticket and buy a plane ... and then not use either? Or is there a scarcity of instructors and hangers "these days" compared to years past?
 
My first thought...

mgeorgiastate.gif
 
Glad to hear things are so well in your locality. We have at least one member who is a CFI who has been decrying the lack of work.
 
paflyer said:
The State of GA?
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Last time I was in GA I was at Ft. Benning. Can't comment on the availability of flight instructors there. Somebody had to teach the guys that dropped us how to fly C130's, so I guess they have flight instructors there, right?
 
Frogs97 said:
I read a lot about how GA is going down and not near what it has been in years past. Not having experience in years past, I certainly can't refute it. But, I can't get instructor time to save my life, because they are always booked, and there are all kinds of wait lists for hanger space in my area. Are people going through the time and expense to get their ticket and buy a plane ... and then not use either? Or is there a scarcity of instructors and hangers "these days" compared to years past?
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My conclusion is he is asking about the state of General Aviation, not Georgia
 
Here in East Texas, I've noticed a healthy uptick in GA activity over the last year or so. :)
 
There are two things that are always true in GA:

1. Hangar space is scarce. Not because GA is booming, but because friends and cronies of the local powers that be are allowed to fill hangars with junk instead of airplanes.

2. CFIs will always be in short supply. Often (as in my neck of the woods) it's because of a shortage of rental planes in which to train. Sometimes it's because the only CFIs left are the ones who refused to give up. All the others have thrown in the towel.

If you want to take a true measure of the state of GA, all you need to do is Google the number of aircraft built in 1973 and compare it to 2013. The collapse has been staggering.

Another true measure of GA is to do what we do: Fly to as many GA airports as possible. You will still meet plenty of nice people, but too often you will find an FBO office that looks like a neutron bomb was detonated 25 miles away. Everything is in perfect order, exactly the way it was when the last WWII guy walked out the door in 1992.

The old 1989 Flying magazines, the yellow business cards on the bulletin board (with the Cherokee 140 for sale for $21K, and no takers), the orange plastic chairs, the old shiny fabric brown couch, ALL are exactly the way they left it -- and no one has been back since.

I have personally flown into dozens of such airports, in Iowa and Texas, in the last 15 years. It makes me want to cry, partially because I really miss those WWII guys, but also because these places so graphically illustrate our complete failure to attract new generations to general aviation.

I've done everything I know how to do, from building aviation themed hotels, to kick starting aviation exhibits at children's museums, to mentoring three people from zero to Private. All have been fun, but to little avail WRT the overall state of GA.
 
Jay just describing those couches makes me feel the little creepies crawling all over my skin. Build nice bathrooms let ladies fly free and thousands of young men will show up to foot the bill.
 
ClimbnSink said:
Jay just describing those couches makes me feel the little creepies crawling all over my skin. Build nice bathrooms let ladies fly free and thousands of young men will show up to foot the bill.
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Ha! Just like ladies night at the bar!

Well, rather, just like ladies night at the bar used to be, until the gummint outlawed such things. :(
 
Jay Honeck said:
I've done everything I know how to do, from building aviation themed hotels, to kick starting aviation exhibits at children's museums, to mentoring three people from zero to Private. All have been fun, but to little avail WRT the overall state of GA.
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The cost of flying for fun has gotten completely out of control. Since I was a kid I wanted to learn to fly, just for recreation, but it wasn't until just recently, in my late 40's, that I felt I could actually afford it. And then, just barely!

The flight school that I trained at over the past year has been doing quite well, but most of their students are young kids with a desire to make a career out of aviation. Nothing wrong with that of course, but I don't see too many like myself who want to fly just for the fun of it.
 
Jay Honeck said:
There are two things that are always true in GA:

1. Hangar space is scarce. Not because GA is booming, but because friends and cronies of the local powers that be are allowed to fill hangars with junk instead of airplanes.

2. CFIs will always be in short supply. Often (as in my neck of the woods) it's because of a shortage of rental planes in which to train. Sometimes it's because the only CFIs left are the ones who refused to give up. All the others have thrown in the towel.

If you want to take a true measure of the state of GA, all you need to do is Google the number of aircraft built in 1973 and compare it to 2013. The collapse has been staggering.

Another true measure of GA is to do what we do: Fly to as many GA airports as possible. You will still meet plenty of nice people, but too often you will find an FBO office that looks like a neutron bomb was detonated 25 miles away. Everything is in perfect order, exactly the way it was when the last WWII guy walked out the door in 1992.

The old 1989 Flying magazines, the yellow business cards on the bulletin board (with the Cherokee 140 for sale for $21K, and no takers), the orange plastic chairs, the old shiny fabric brown couch, ALL are exactly the way they left it -- and no one has been back since.

I have personally flown into dozens of such airports, in Iowa and Texas, in the last 15 years. It makes me want to cry, partially because I really miss those WWII guys, but also because these places so graphically illustrate our complete failure to attract new generations to general aviation.

I've done everything I know how to do, from building aviation themed hotels, to kick starting aviation exhibits at children's museums, to mentoring three people from zero to Private. All have been fun, but to little avail WRT the overall state of GA.
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You can't force people to love aviation. I am surrounded by it. I really had no choice, not that I would change it anyway.

Aviation isn't fun anymore. The WWII guys WERE aviation. They were inspired by the barnstormers and other aviation greats early on. They made it through the tough stuff and survived. Those were the guys I looked up to. They were also military... which I think had a lot to do with it. Civ flying isn't the same.

I worked at a prominent flying community in FL. I loved being surrounded by those guys, their aircraft, and their stories. It was an experience I would love to repeat.

So, in my honest opinion, Civilian pilots are GA's problem.

Anyway, ramble ramble ramble. It will never be the same.. or recover. But, I'll enjoy what I can while it lasts.
 
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Rules are the problem. And modern military pilots are rule machines more so then civvy pilots. What made the old guys great is they either didn't have rules or didn't follow them. Pffft military pilots as a whole are not an answer to anything except what the military thinks it needs.
 
ClimbnSink said:
Rules are the problem. And modern military pilots are rule machines more so then civvy pilots. What made the old guys great is they either didn't have rules or didn't follow them. Pffft military pilots as a whole are not an answer to anything except what the military thinks it needs.
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I didn't want to say it, but you got it.

*old mil guys.
 
Ha! Thank you to those that cleared up my confusing topic line in my absence. Yes, I am from Benbrook, TX. Just SW of Fort Worth.

Jay, that really is a very depressing picture you paint, and that certainly answers the questions about the hangars. That baffled me more than anything. I could see why the instructor pool could fluctuate, but hangars are more durable, so now I know. Thank you.

And, FWIW, I've never been to Georgia, but as a Texans, we tend to look down on everything, so there's nothing special about that. :D
 
I use to spend 2-3 hours every Sat afternoon hanging out at the FBO shooting the ****e...maybe drive to lunch maybe fly with one of my airport buddies....I finished my private in 2006 just as my airport buddies were starting to drop out...so we motorcycled for awhile to lunch, then that dropped out...now I can just afford a plane ( I hope) and I finally have one and the FBO is a virtual ghost town....it is very sad to me.
 
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Money is the biggest obstacle.
There are lots of rules and if you love flying, you will work with or around them.

Most people don't have 2nd houses or a spare car and planes certainly cost far more than a car and many as much as a house.

How many times have you told someone you were a pilot and they ask with in the first couple questions "How much did that cost?"

you tell em what you paid and the get the "oh nevermind" look.

And that's just for the cert.

I think money is the biggest obstacle. You don't even know how many rules there are until you have paid for the cert.

Gotta figure out how to make it less expensive.
 
It was fun while it lasted...........:D........wistfully hoping the $100 burger comes back..........
 
If they ease the part 23 kabuki for non-commercial use and release these spam cans to experimental operating/mx rules, you can lower the cost a significant amount. Alas, the FAA is once again dragging their feet on such an implementation. Fuel is another one. Making 96 unleaded at the airport available would help out the recreational crowd quite a bit. Alas, the FBO can't afford two supply chains that can't be mixed due to that stupid lead. That's got pork belly written all over it.

So to me, a lot of the price barriers are simple unadulterated government over-regulation sprinkled with good ol' american pork belly special interest groups holding down the rent-seeking fort.

For those of us who still wish to participate as younger heads of household, we have to get our families on board to be willing to commit to a more frugal lifestyle in order to be able to cut a slice of the pie to afford this avocation and share it with our offspring and their generation.
 
I'll say that there's an uptick in my neck of the woods. I'm in the metro Boston area, and all hangars are full at my field. The school I moon-light at could easily bring on two more full-time CFIs.

I think distribution has changed as income distribution has changed for the nation. The tech areas are seeing surges in GA activity while the rust and corn belts are rusting and rotting.
 
flytime said:
The cost of flying for fun has gotten completely out of control.
,,,, but I don't see too many like myself who want to fly just for the fun of it.
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Cpt_Kirk said:
Aviation isn't fun anymore.

So, in my honest opinion, Civilian pilots are GA's problem.

Anyway, ramble ramble ramble. It will never be the same.. or recover. But, I'll enjoy what I can while it lasts.
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ClimbnSink said:
Rules are the problem. And modern military pilots are rule machines more so then civvy pilots. What made the old guys great is they either didn't have rules or didn't follow them. Pffft military pilots as a whole are not an answer to anything except what the military thinks it needs.
Click to expand...

SixPapaCharlie said:
Money is the biggest obstacle.
There are lots of rules and if you love flying, you will work with or around them.


Gotta figure out how to make it less expensive.
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Wow, I rarely get a chance to multi quote. But - I took a chance, there seems to be a theme forming, and maybe I have part of the answer.

http://culverprops.com/back-yard-ul.php

I got a few minutes of stick time in one of these trike style. It was a hoot and a half. Burns about 1.5GPH, it's a four stroke, lands at some redonkulus slow speed. If you are over 6' and 200lbs, no prob, it fits. Under $20k brand new, or less used. If you can't dinge up $20k, take up knitting, or ballroom dancing or, whatev.

<edit: no affiliation, they don't get anything from me.>
 
I always wanted to learn how to fly, since I was a kid, I believe GA is here to stay but not as popular as the 80's unless major changes are made. It would be interesting to see how GA is doing in other countries.
 
docmirror said:
Wow, I rarely get a chance to multi quote. But - I took a chance, there seems to be a theme forming, and maybe I have part of the answer.

http://culverprops.com/back-yard-ul.php

I got a few minutes of stick time in one of these trike style. It was a hoot and a half. Burns about 1.5GPH, it's a four stroke, lands at some redonkulus slow speed. If you are over 6' and 200lbs, no prob, it fits. Under $20k brand new, or less used. If you can't dinge up $20k, take up knitting, or ballroom dancing or, whatev.

<edit: no affiliation, they don't get anything from me.>
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Hell, you can barely buy a car for that anymore.

What I don't understand is: Where are the young, thrill-seeking men who should be snatching this thing up?
 
6PC has got it right. It isn't the rules at all. I mean come on, the rules aren't that hard to follow. I fly with 90 pilots that know the FARs, fly for a living, and would love to do it in their spare time. They don't because they simply can't afford it. Sure they can swing the $6,000 for a private pilot certificate, but then it's $100 an hour to use it. 100LL is $5 - $8 a gallon. Flat 4 cylinder airplane engines cost $15,000+, a VW flat 4 is $3,000. 95% of the population just can't afford it. They'll go buy a boat or Porsche instead. Sure some of the old guys didn't care about the rules. Most probably didn't exist. How much airspace is class G or E? 98%? You can do almost anything you could want in that airspace. The problem is you can't afford to even get in the air in the first place.

So you can't complain without offering a solution right? I think experimental, and especially light, lower power experimentals are the answer. Airplanes like the sonex or RV-12 for example. The sonex can be put together for less than $30,000, has a $3,500 engine, and decent fuel consumption. Basically it's the equivalent of a WWII era certified plane for $10,000 more. The certified LSAs for $125,000 aren't going to do it. The liability cost of certified planes has become truly ridiculous. A change there will make the difference.
 
Jay Honeck said:
Hell, you can barely buy a car for that anymore.

What I don't understand is: Where are the young, thrill-seeking men who should be snatching this thing up?
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IMO At home playing Nintendo with no real desire to go outside!
 
Jim Logajan said:
OP has entered 76126 zip code as location in their profile. City-data.com says that is Benbrook, Texas.
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Benbrook is a suburb of Fort Worth, SW of downtown and nice digs.

As far as finding available CFI's, the OP isn't kicking over the correct rocks. There a lots of good CFI's in the region. He just needs to reach out to us locals and ask.

I'm drawing a blank for the name of the school/instructor at Spinks (KFWS) but I keep hearing of a really good one there.

Then there is the guy in Grandbury that Jesse the Hulk did his PPL ride.

Aviator Air at KGPM has a good program.

MarcAir at 52F is a good school.

Brandon Ayers at Gainesville keeps getting mentioned with positive reviews.

Plenty of good supply if you just know where to look.
 
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And we shouldn't forget Carol Walker in Midlothian
 
For the last three years I have volunteered to teach the aviation merit badge to scouts at our local council's camp. It draws scouts from across the state.

The last three years looked similar to the picture below but this year they called and said I didn't need to teach as only two scouts signed up :(. Depressing

7a7abe7y.jpg



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
Swampfox201 said:
For the last three years I have volunteered to teach the aviation merit badge to scouts at our local council's camp. It draws scouts from across the state.

The last three years looked similar to the picture below but this year they called and said I didn't need to teach as only two scouts signed up :(. Depressing

7a7abe7y.jpg



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Click to expand...

Nice photo,

Somehow we have to inspire kids to fly. The Top Gun movie did it in the 80's
 
FloridaPilot said:
Nice photo,

Somehow we have to inspire kids to fly. The Top Gun movie did it in the 80's
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EAA Young eagles can fill that role. Especially if you have a passionate marketing person like EAA 34 in Arlington, TX does. Michelle routinely pulls in 150 kids per rally. We are working our third in as many months next weekend at KRBD.
 
Jay Honeck said:
Another true measure of GA is to do what we do: Fly to as many GA airports as possible. You will still meet plenty of nice people, but too often you will find an FBO office that looks like a neutron bomb was detonated 25 miles away. Everything is in perfect order, exactly the way it was when the last WWII guy walked out the door in 1992.

The old 1989 Flying magazines, the yellow business cards on the bulletin board (with the Cherokee 140 for sale for $21K, and no takers), the orange plastic chairs, the old shiny fabric brown couch, ALL are exactly the way they left it -- and no one has been back since.

I have personally flown into dozens of such airports, in Iowa and Texas, in the last 15 years. It makes me want to cry, partially because I really miss those WWII guys, but also because these places so graphically illustrate our complete failure to attract new generations to general aviation.

I've done everything I know how to do, from building aviation themed hotels, to kick starting aviation exhibits at children's museums, to mentoring three people from zero to Private. All have been fun, but to little avail WRT the overall state of GA.
Click to expand...



KBKD Breckinridge TX.

It's just like you describe, like you just walked into an FBO at the same time Dick Nixon was walking out of the White House. It's so much like a time warp, it's trippy.

It has the sixties plastic chairs inside a small dusty glass deco building, the West Texas hard water stained bathroom ambiance, a seventies coke machine outside that doesn't work, a Ford Taurus courtesy sun baked car on flats, even a broken old pull handle cigarette machine with some old Pall Mall's in there ... Talk about feeling alone there sometimes. It's like the Langoliers are going to start eating everything any minute. :yesnod::lol:
 
Jay Honeck said:
Hell, you can barely buy a car for that anymore.

What I don't understand is: Where are the young, thrill-seeking men who should be snatching this thing up?
Click to expand...

They were all raised by single moms and have had thrill seeking beaten and medicated out of their sorry hollow souls. So maybe it isn't rules I change my answer the problem is single mothers trying to raise children.
 
ClimbnSink said:
They were all raised by single moms and have had thrill seeking beaten and medicated out of their sorry hollow souls. So maybe it isn't rules I change my answer the problem is single mothers trying to raise children.
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It's not just single mothers. There's plenty of males raising younger males who spend all their free time on the sofa playing XBox.

More power to 'em of that's what they want out of life.

I'm amazed when I listen to co-workers who's only entertainment is video games. They spend a LOT of money on them.

It's their money and a Free country but I'd be bored to death. One of them about lost his mind when Comcast ran into some problem installing in his new apartment and took an extra day.

I don't think he was kidding when he said he "couldn't live without high speed Internet".

Dunno. Seems a bit sad to me, but it's up to them.
 
Seems to me there are three types of people who fly little airplanes now a days:

The people who do it for a living, or can use the airplane in their business
The people who have lots of money.
The people who just want to fly, and will make any sacrifice needed to fly, including living in a smaller house, driving a cheaper car, etc.

I am in the third group.
 
Nothing has changed. It has always been the three.

RalphInCA said:
Seems to me there are three types of people who fly little airplanes now a days:

The people who do it for a living, or can use the airplane in their business
The people who have lots of money.
The people who just want to fly, and will make any sacrifice needed to fly, including living in a smaller house, driving a cheaper car, etc.

I am in the third group.
Click to expand...
 
Jay Honeck said:
So why, if nothing has changed, and there are so many more citizens, is GA dying on the vine?
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I'd say it's not one thing, but an amalgam of many things mentioned. Time and money are always in limited supply. Xbox(et al) has made devastating inroads in the youth's time, and also money. My kids never owned or played video games but on the lower income side I see Xbox(et al) as a real problem for youth.

Next we come to a regulatory aspect. Don't discount this. We've all pretty much come across that person who wonders why we are "allowed" to fly anywhere we want any time we want without some kind of 'control' being exercised over us. It seems that the younger generation are much more ok with a central authority making and enforcing regulations on almost every aspect of their lives. Heck, there was a story in yahoo a few days ago about a parent going to jail for letting their kid walk home from school. WTF? No one can say we have fewer rules that 10 years ago, and more are coming. My favorite whipping boy is the fact that when I fly a GA plane, I'm required to get authorization from my govt to LEAVE the country. Not by ground, or water, but only by air. We are being regulated into a tiny corner of the published BOR, and anything outside of those exact words are being beauracratized to death.

Finally, I think that GA was oversold as a method of reliable, safe, and timely transportation like a car. The truth is, it requires an order of magnitude more training than a car, is not as useful(load, comfort, convenience) in most cases, and the only redeeming value to it is that it's 2 or 3 or 4 times faster than driving. I think this was best driven home with the statement made by Ercoupe. In the 40s, you could theoretically go down to the local Sears outlet, and buy an Ercoupe, and they would sign you up with an instructor, and in a few weeks, you'd be hauling wife/GF around the skies to exciting destinations. The reality was that the Ercoupe would only go ~85MPH, it was cramped, hot, bumpy, and noisy, you couldn't carry much more than a small picnic basket, and when you got to the other end you had to arrange for a rental car, or have a friend haul you around on the ground. It just didn't work back then, and it doesn't work much better now.
 
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