EdFred
Taxi to Parking
Hmmmm, I've unloaded magazines I don't even know how many times in that exact manner, and never once had a discharge. And I'm the idiot? Oooooook.
TSA and Honeymoons
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Hmmmm, I've unloaded magazines I don't even know how many times in that exact manner, and never once had a discharge. And I'm the idiot? Oooooook.
Florida Cracker
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Florida Cracker
The only people who would miss the imbeciles at TSA if it were shut down are idiots and TSA employees. The rest would go on as if they had never existed.
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Bob Noel
Hmmmm, I've unloaded magazines I don't even know how many times in that exact manner, and never once had a discharge. And I'm the idiot? Oooooook.
A problem might be idiot who attempts to do it but forgets the very very very important part about keeping the finger off the @#(*$&#( trigger!
And therein lies the problem. Some people just ain't that smart.
EdFred
Taxi to Parking
Then maybe those people shouldn't be rummaging through luggage. Hey guess what, it's in the cargo hold anyway. The problem with it being loaded is what? Someone is going to cut a hole in the aisle of the passenger area, climb down into the cargo hold unnoticed, find their gun already loaded and then hijack the plane with it? And the sole thing that will keep them from accomplishing this is that the magazine is next to the weapon rather than in it? That's the lynchpin that causes the whole plan to fall apart.
Press conference:
"Well, the individual would have been able to take over the plane, but the gun was unloaded, and he didn't know what to do at that point."
ClimbnSink
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Greg
Skewering the guy for having his gun 'technically loaded' is the same as skewering dead pilots post crash. Fortunately all of us are too smart to crash and too smart to technically violate a gun law.
ggroves
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Titanium
And you'd replace them with.....who? No security you say? Self screening?
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ClimbnSink
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Greg
Let the Texans carry, no worries then. Occasional depressurization is cheaper then 9/11.
docmirror
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Cowboy - yeehah!
Oh! the horror of it! People out in public, riding in a big aluminum tube without -- say it; GOVT CONTROL!! Gahhhhhhhh! Earthquakes, volcanoes, human sacrifice, Cats and dogs living together, oh the huge manatee.
Here's my solution. How about we give the people a choice. Either you can get on a plane, no screening, no security, CC if you like, and let the passengers take care of business. And have flights to/from major destinations each day which have full screening, complete TSA shakedown, X-ray bags, etc.
Airlines could even sell it like a carry-on fee: "Delta announces new: Full security class service! We are proud to offer full screening for you and all your carry-ons. You will be X-rayed before boarding and all your luggage will be X-rayed, and rifled through by a goon with a 3rd grade education. Then, you will be assigned a secure flight, with a secure crew, and a secure armed federal agent on board your flight. Feel free to come and go with full safety of the govt watching your every move. Only $89 per flight segment. Hurry! Space is limited, and filling up fast! Book today!
There is no way to secure every public place in the country. If a towel-head wants to bomb some big priority target(like a marathon), or some other venue, it's gonna happen, and all the cops, and rules, and whatever aren't going to stop it. Might as well stay in your bed, in your house, and cower under the covers. Fit yourself with a colostomy bag, and a catheter so you don't even have to go to the bathroom. geeeeeeez
JohnF
Pre-Flight
It is a hand-off of responsibility. I check my gun at the door. While it is in my care I am responsible. When I declare it to the airline because they wish to be responsible for my gun while I travel with them I would hope that they would put in this position [that accepts such declarations] people capable of receiving such responsibility.
After all, not only did I just carry a gun into the sterile airport environment but I pointed to the box I put it in and said for all within earshot to know, "If you are looking for a gun, it's in that box right over there."
A rather dubious judgment. This, whether we care to admit it or not, is a public debate and we owe it to all participants to hear them out and then meet their thrust with whatever we can muster as rational argument. Supporting or weakening, it does not matter. It is better for us all if we do.
Interesting question. What are they going to charge me with vs what should they charge me with. Interesting too to consider; who is "they"?
No doubt it will somehow be seen as my fault because the current court of public opinion always paints a person that would take a gun on an airline as a bad guy. And bad guys gotta be guilty. And probably a felony. Especially if someone dies.
They shouldn't charge me with anything since, as I pointed out above, I checked my gun at the door and the checkee accepted responsibility.
And "We" is "They". When we forget this we allow our society to be steamrolled by the tactics of tyrants.
So, to add my opinion to the subject of the thread:
I think it is ludicrous to make it a crime for a person to check a fully loaded weapon. If I were the checkee and about to absolve you of responsible handling of your weapon I would assume that it were loaded anyway. If I wanted it unloaded, I would make sure and do it myself.
And I would have no fantasy belief that because there was this law that I was somehow now safer as the checkee. Yes, protocol says to check a gun one must hand it over in a box but if I were a disgruntled checker bent on killing me a checkee, I would hand over a box with the right hand and shoot with the gun from my left jacket pocket. (I'm a lefty
)So, the punitive fine will have no appreciable effect on anything that matters in the least. Sure, the young groom will not have a magazine in the gun that is in the box ever again and all of his future checkees can thank this event for not having to push the magazine release for themselves but for the greater good of society and for the Security of The Homeland [ahem] it is an utterly meaningless act.
For my part, to this young man, I apologize.
Ready to be fired is not synonymous with loaded.
By your idiot definition a revolver that only has one bullet in it isn't loaded either.
By your definition a single action revolver with bullets in all the chambers aren't loaded.
Any sane gun owner, the military and the feds (not just the TSA) considers having bullets in the magazine to be loaded.
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JohnF
Pre-Flight
How about we check to see when Colorado considers a gun loaded?
See? In Colorado a firearm is loaded when there is a cartridge in the chamber. That's law I quoted there.
Same is true for having a loaded firearm in a vehicle for hunting in CO and NE.
Idiot definition? Naw. Different definition for a different context. I'll give you that. The text of law is rife with semantic jungle gyms of such definitions.
To me, if we were about to take on a legion of zombies and I turn and ask if you are loaded and ready you dang well better mean you have a round chambered when you say yes.
Oh yeah, I meant to make your argument murkier. I disagree with your last statement that sane/Fed/LE etc consider cartridges in the magazine a loaded weapon (because it is not by law. duh.) but when asked to unload a firearm in the context of range or armory it is understood that there will be no cartridges in the chamber and no magazine in the firearm.
There, murky.
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denverpilot
Tied Down
So are you insinuating that the agency responsible for stopping serious terrorists at our airports, hires morons? Gosh. I'm shocked to hear this. Almost like it's just makeshift work! LOL.
Anyway to answer your question; if an untrained moron picks up a firearm and shoots someone with it, that's on them.
Don't know WTF you're doing? Leave it alone, raise your hand, and ask for an adult. We'll send one over with a cookie for you, and then you can have a juice box and nappy time.
Maybe they're useless dumbasses who shouldn't be fondling undies, people, or firearms. Just a thought.
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Ghery
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Ghery Pettit
Automatic firearms are legal in Colorado. They are NOT legal in the state of Washington, tax stamp or no tax stamp.
And I agree, calling something an "assault rifle" simply because it's ugly is BS.
denverpilot
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ron22
Cleared for Takeoff
O-200
Pre-takeoff checklist
timwinters
Ejection Handle Pulled
And the rifle he's holding isn't very attractive either!
denverpilot
Tied Down
They are ugly when they are NOT assault rifles
s
What is that crap on the aft end?
And is that rear sight even tall enough for that front post?
EdFred
Taxi to Parking
Looks like a camo hat.
denverpilot
Tied Down
Oh. Interesting.
The politicians out there sure do retarded things.
We get rid of them with recalls when they try to import that much stupidity.
ron22
Cleared for Takeoff
Without getting into the assault rifle debate or spin zone.
http://patdollard.com/2014/02/gun-m...tweaks-to-get-around-new-yorks-ban-on-ar-15s/
That is the article for the image I posted
http://patdollard.com/2014/02/gun-m...tweaks-to-get-around-new-yorks-ban-on-ar-15s/
That is the article for the image I posted
I suspect this is a regional thing. Out here in the EAST we don't even transport the ammunition in the same case as the weapon. That's the law in many of the states. Otherwise you have an accessible weapon and in that case you darned well better be following the stricter carry laws.
The feds however are primarily "easterners" it would seem.
As I was told by one of the building foemen when I worked as a University administrator:
"When in the east, you got to do as we do in the east."
(This was a veiled, I can't tell you not to bring non-union people on the job, but things would go much better if you didn't).
The feds however are primarily "easterners" it would seem.
As I was told by one of the building foemen when I worked as a University administrator:
"When in the east, you got to do as we do in the east."
(This was a veiled, I can't tell you not to bring non-union people on the job, but things would go much better if you didn't).
cowman
Final Approach
As much as I hate these assault weapons bans, maybe we ought to be happy the anti-gun legislators are so clueless. At least they're not limiting caliber or grains of powder or anything else that has an actual effect on the functionality of the gun.
n20junkie
Pre-takeoff checklist
I have zero sympathy for people who won't take 5 minutes to seach te internet for answers. Assuming you can just put a loaded firearm in checked bags is retarded!
I fly all the time with mine, its easy and thats including leaving communist NY.
I fly all the time with mine, its easy and thats including leaving communist NY.
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denverpilot
Tied Down
He definitely isn't the brightest bulb in the box, but criminal charges and a fine that is more than the cost of a good used automobile, is stupider.
He had no intent to harm and didn't even do anything negligent or dangerous.
You could pull the trigger on that firearm all day (I'm assuming it was a semi-auto... If it was a revolver I'm good with reckless endangerment, but since they said it had a magazine... Had to be a semi-auto pistol.), and absolutely nothing would happen.
As the thread has pointed out, our crack terror stopping organization may be hiring morons who'd probably take the thing out of the luggage with their finger inside the trigger guard, rack a round in, and point it at their head and pull the trigger, because they really just might be that stupid...
But the kid didn't put anyone in any danger at all.
Hopefully whatever appeals process he has to go through doesn't leave him penniless. I suspect hiring a good attorney will cost at least as much as the outrageous fine.
As far as "Easterner's" definitions of "loaded" goes... Well, you can't fix stupid.
ClimbnSink
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Greg
I'd guess the original legal definition of loaded gun comes from the fish cops writing rules and not an urban demand for a definition of a loaded gun. Of course it is always useful to have extra things to charge people with.
Everskyward
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Everskyward
But they would be using the TSA's definition of "loaded" in this case, whether you think it's stupid or not.
http://www.tsa.gov/traveler-information/prohibited-items#6
denverpilot
Tied Down
"Fish cop". There's one I haven't heard before.
Loaded means "if the safety is disengaged and the trigger pulled, the gun will fire".
The politicians may make up other false definitions if it serves their purposes, yes.
Their purposes may just include making sure their lawyer buddies who haven't run for office (yet), get paid.
Loaded means "if the safety is disengaged and the trigger pulled, the gun will fire".
The politicians may make up other false definitions if it serves their purposes, yes.
Their purposes may just include making sure their lawyer buddies who haven't run for office (yet), get paid.
cowman
Final Approach
I grew up around guns and I always thought loaded meant bullets are in the gun whether or not anything is chambered.
denverpilot
Tied Down
Ultimately that's a safety call, but inaccurate.
Since the vast majority of negligent discharges include someone racking a round in, thinking they're racking a round out, because they didn't drop the magazine first, it's a common safety training technique.
But it ain't gonna go "bang" unless you rack the slide, and chamber a round.
Also tends to be used as an overall safety technique when mixing vastly different firearms.
Most bird hunters like to carry break-open shotguns for example, so everyone can see when you're carrying it over your shoulder that nothing is in it.
Rifles, lots of places want to see the bolt open. Ironically or perhaps to help prove or disprove the point, two of my rifles will not stay open without an empty magazine inserted, others will happily hold open with a round already in the chamber and they're only a button press to close the bolt and then a trigger pull to fire from there, even without a magazine.
Revolvers... Well, they load themselves if they're double-action and there's a cartridge in the next chamber, all it takes is a trigger squeeze. If they're single action, you'll have to pull the hammer back yourself.
And then there's semi-autos like my S&W with a magazine disconnect that even with a round in the chamber, if you drop the magazine, it won't fire.
So... It's very dependent on the specifics of the firearm but none of them will fire without a trigger pull. That's why the number one safety feature is not to put your booger hook inside the trigger guard unless you're ready to fire it. And if it's in a holster that covers the entire trigger guard, it isn't going to ever do anything. It's just a hunk of metal doing nothing.
Modern polymer pistols just don't do anything without 5-10 lbs of force exerted against the trigger. And without a round chambered they have no way of chambering one on their own. I'm guessing that's the type of pistol the kid had. Even a single-action semi-auto like a 1911 with nothing in the chamber, can fire or load itself.
It takes a very specific set of events to move a round up from the magazine and even have a chance of firing the pistol and if no booger hook enters the trigger guard, you can technically "unload" the whole magazine by loading the gun however many times necessary to eject all the live rounds. (That'd be stupid, but possible. If you ever get a magazine stuck in the magazine well, you can still unload it safely.)
One of my pistols that mimics the single-action 1911 design, has a significant change, where you can leave the safety engaged and rack the slide as long as the hammer is back AND a magazine is inserted. Remove the magazine, it won't rack.
Makes it a little less likely to cause a problem if Mr. Booger Hook were to wander into the guard for any reason. Drop magazine and rack and never take it off of manual safe, to clear. Slide locks back on empty magazine.
1911, not so much. There's always a critical stage unloading a 1911 where the manual safety is off and a 3 lb pull will fire it, and you have to rack it in that condition.
So... The only definition that really works for "loaded" is... "will fire if manual safety disengaged, and trigger is pulled".
But I know where you're coming from, when talking about training.
The other thing about most modern pistols is that they do have a loaded chamber indicator. Some are visual only and you have to look at them. Others are able to be felt in the dark and usually are also visual at the same time.
Since they're not consistent in implementation, I just use the old school method. Don't hand me that thing unless the mag is dropped and the slide is locked back. Period.
And no matter what, I don't care if you think you unloaded it, you never point it at anything you don't intend to destroy, or anyone.
So I'm "understanding" of the "it's loaded if there's rounds in the magazine" phrase. I'm just not going to give it a complete pass as accurate.
Speaking specifically about the typical modern semi-auto... If you lay it on a table with one in the chamber, it isn't magically going to fire and take out a schoolroom of kids. It definitely won't fire ever, if there isn't one in the chamber.
Oh well. Call it what you like. Education is the important part.
My groupings with the 1911 were nice tonight but the XDS was punishing my lower trigger finger, which developed quickly into me slapping the trigger and my groupings suffered.
Once I decided to press through and hold even though the little bastard was whacking my trigger finger with muzzle flip and the bottom of the trigger guard, the groupings came right in as tight as the pistol with an extra 1.5" sight radius.
The XDS may get sold. Don't know yet. But right now it's not my favorite pistol to shoot. Definitely not a 100 round range gun. Might need sandpaper grips. It just wants to flip too hard.
Karen wants to shoot tomorrow so I'll probably take the much nicer shooting S&W Gen 3 in 9mm and enjoy myself, instead of being punished by the little mule kicker in .45 ACP.
I consider all guns loaded until proven otherwise.
Everskyward
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Particularly after you realize people have conflicting definitions of "loaded" and "unloaded"!
I also learned the "eastern"/TSA definition. But I grew up in the east and that is also how we define "loaded" at work.
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ggroves
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Titanium
This thread is very interesting. If some of the "gun" guys chiming in here had a police officer, during a traffic stop, ask for their gun for the duration of the stop, and then watched as the officer unloaded it, you would have a FIT over safety.
But because it's the TSA and you need the "rant", it's somehow all different......Got it.
The kid was stupid. If you don't take time to understand the law, you shouldn't be carrying a gun.
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But because it's the TSA and you need the "rant", it's somehow all different......Got it.
The kid was stupid. If you don't take time to understand the law, you shouldn't be carrying a gun.
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ClimbnSink
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Greg
denverpilot
Tied Down
Uhhh, no. Officer wants to unload it, I don't care. Just don't point it at anything or anyone while they're doing it.
Interesting that you should bring it up, though. Most officers will take the smart route and ask that it remain holstered (it can't fire itself) and that you keep your hands away from it and in plain sight.
And what's that got to do with TSA incompetence? Incompetence is incompetence.
I've never agreed with the young man's poor choice of not reading the law, but his firearm was not capable of causing anyone any harm in the condition he had it in.
Zero. Nada. Zilch. None. Period. Zero risk.
And Denver City & County is well-known for over-reactions when it comes to firearms.
Pull him aside, tell him he screwed up, remove the magazine, life goes on. That's civilized.
$10,000 fine and a criminal record? Stupid. Isn't effective at TSA's defined mission. Barely rises to the level of the Keystone Kops.
TSA is a massive waste of money and manpower of colossal proportions. But some milimeter-wave scanner manufacturers made out like bandits.
Clip4
Final Approach
An unloaded gun means the ammo is removed from the gun, not the just chamber. The TSA is correct in their enforcement.