NCAA football and pay for play

jtheune said:
You keep harping on how D1 makes money but your ignoring the fact that the vast majority of sports could not exist at the collegiate level without the money that football and basketball bring in. There is no mythical pile of money that is sitting somewhere at the school, it's going to pay for all the other athletic department stuff.
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Silly me.....

All this time I thought College was for education purposes.:mad2::mad2::mad2:..


And what is it with scholarships.....

If everyone paid the same amount, the cost per student would go WAY down..
 
I can't understand the reasoning behind wishing to deny someone compensation from an employer that is willing to pay it.

Those were $15.00 Jerseys that would go unsold until Manziel put one on. Not to mention the kid would be barred from selling his own line of shirts that would have no affiliation to aTm.
 
bartmc said:
I can't understand the reasoning behind wishing to deny someone compensation from an employer that is willing to pay it.

Those were $15.00 Jerseys that would go unsold until Manziel put one on. Not to mention the kid would be barred from selling his own line of shirts that would have no affiliation to aTm.
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No one is denying them compensation. They are getting tuition, room, and board.
 
EdFred said:
No one is denying them compensation. They are getting tuition, room, and board.
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I figure manziel was probably worth a couple million more than that to aTm. They'd probably willingly hand him $500k for his services. That's denying compensation.
 
You guys are missing the biggest part of college football players compensation. What does a young man value more then money? *****. And they can get plenty even the DIII guys. Free college, local fame, and girl access way above the norm. Not a bad deal and certainly explains why someone would put in the work, also why they would be depressed when the ride ends.
 
ClimbnSink said:
You guys are missing the biggest part of college football players compensation. What does a young man value more then money? *****. And they can get plenty even the DIII guys. Free college, local fame, and girl access way above the norm. Not a bad deal and certainly explains why someone would put in the work, also why they would be depressed when the ride ends.
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It's not really up to us to determine how much and what's good enough pay now is it?
 
Jhernandez04 said:
Your argument is a classic case of not knowing what your talking about.

We got up at 430 am so we could workout till 6, eat breakfast and then be at class @7, then have practice from 4-630. And if you didn't have a 3.0 you had study hall for an hour afterwards. Rinse and repeat all year long.

I'm not saying what you did was easy. But it's not as hard as an athlete. There are reasons why getting a D1 SCHOLARSHIP is hard.

Your (sic) letting your personal emotions and past history cloud a simple business decision.

The kids deserve to get paid. I don't care if you weren't good enough for a scholarship and worked 2 jobs on the side so you feel like athletes are spoiled brats, oh well. They still bring in the most money.
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And you aren't? Please! Those were shorter days than mine - AND it was something you liked doing. I certainly didn't enjoy throwing boxes for 6-7 hours at a time. The deal is, (and I'm sure you'll claim I'm just an Uncle Rico anyway) I was good enough for a DI scholarship when I finally got to that age. But due to a number of issues I wasn't able be afforded the opportunity to even walk on.
 
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bartmc said:
I figure manziel was probably worth a couple million more than that to aTm. They'd probably willingly hand him $500k for his services. That's denying compensation.
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And at every job you and I have worked at where we weren't the owner we figured we were more than what we were actually getting paid. Especially when the owner comes blazing in with a brand new $100k sports car and says, "sorry, no money for bonuses this year." It's no different. Well, actually it is, we weren't getting paid to play games.
 
bartmc said:
I figure manziel was probably worth a couple million more than that to aTm. They'd probably willingly hand him $500k for his services. That's denying compensation.
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I guess it depends on how much cash is in the aTm when you try to make a withdrawal. :)
 
EdFred said:
And at every job you and I have worked at where we weren't the owner we figured we were more than what we were actually getting paid. Especially when the owner comes blazing in with a brand new $100k sports car and says, "sorry, no money for bonuses this year." It's no different. Well, actually it is, we weren't getting paid to play games.
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And we're free to negotiate better compensation or take our talent to someone willing to pay it. Two things that I have done and two things a college player is unable to do.

I really don't get how anyone thinks it's their business to get between someone and the money someone else is willing to pay them. Does not compute. Doesn't even seem legal.
 
EdFred said:
And you aren't? Please! Those were shorter days than mine - AND it was something you liked doing. I certainly didn't enjoy throwing boxes for 6-7 hours at a time. The deal is, (and I'm sure you'll claim I'm just an Uncle Rico anyway) I was good enough for a DI scholarship when I finally got to that age. But due to a number of issues I wasn't able be afforded the opportunity to even walk on.
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No, no, Ed. You said you got up at 5:00, so he followed up that he had to get up at 4:30, so he clearly worked harder than you, you slacker. ;)
 
EdFred said:
And you aren't? Please! Those were shorter days than mine - AND it was something you liked doing. I certainly didn't enjoy throwing boxes for 6-7 hours at a time. The deal is, (and I'm sure you'll claim I'm just an Uncle Rico anyway) I was good enough for a DI scholarship when I finally got to that age. But due to a number of issues I wasn't able be afforded the opportunity to even walk on.
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How do you know I liked it? I hated it. But it was the only avenue to afford me a better life. I don't like people telling em what to do 24/7.

Shorter days? Maybe, let's see how you do with two-a-days. Training is always harder then working.


They deserve to be compensated beyond an education.
 
nddons said:
No, no, Ed. You said you got up at 5:00, so he followed up that he had to get up at 4:30, so he clearly worked harder than you, you slacker. ;)
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Wasn't trying to one up him. But if you were there at 5:01 you were late. Hell, 4:59 was late.
 
Jhernandez04 said:
How do you know I liked it? I hated it. But it was the only avenue to afford me a better life. I don't like people telling em what to do 24/7.

Shorter days? Maybe, let's see how you do with two-a-days. Training is always harder then working.


They deserve to be compensated beyond an education.
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The only avenue? You couldn't work at a part time job? There are way way way more kids that work and go to school as opposed to playing sports and going to school. It certainly couldn't have been the only avenue.
 
Jhernandez04 said:
Your argument is a classic case of not knowing what your talking about.

We got up at 430 am so we could workout till 6, eat breakfast and then be at class @7, then have practice from 4-630. And if you didn't have a 3.0 you had study hall for an hour afterwards. Rinse and repeat all year long.

I'm not saying what you did was easy. But it's not as hard as an athlete. There are reasons why getting a D1 SCHOLARSHIP is hard.

Your letting your personal emotions and past history cloud a simple business decision.

The kids deserve to get paid. I don't care if you weren't good enough for a scholarship and worked 2 jobs on the side so you feel like athletes are spoiled brats, oh well. They still bring in the most money.
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Given that you said you kept this schedule the entire year except for 14 days off, it seems to me that your school was in gross violation of the NCAA rules on offseason workouts.

Student athletes are limited to eight hours a week of athletic activities (such as conditioning and weight lifting) in the off season.

Spring football workouts are limited to 4 hours a day and 20 hours a week.

There summer workouts can only be voluntary, with no coaches present.

I'm sure your schedule was significant during the season, but off season? I think you may be overstating the case a little bit.
 
EdFred said:
The only avenue? You couldn't work at a part time job? There are way way way more kids that work and go to school as opposed to playing sports and going to school. It certainly couldn't have been the only avenue.
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I was 17/18 years old and the best lineman in the state, what do you think I thought?

Football, was a way of life then. In college it was a job, hated that.

I played semi pro for a year and loved it, because it went back to being a game. Not a job.


College athletes are very hard workers, and they have no choice but to accept rules of the scholarship they recieve. But that doesnt mean its exactly fair. Does it?
 
Jhernandez04 said:
How do you know I liked it? I hated it. But it was the only avenue to afford me a better life.
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I think that's the point, if it hadn't been for sports you likely wouldn't have gone to college and gotten a degree, is that correct? The son of one of my managers went to college strictly because he wanted to play football. He redshirted his first year and played 3 years at a small school, but he got his degree, which he would not have gotten had it not been for football. He graduated with one year of eligibilty left and walked away a happy guy.
I don't have an issue with football players getting paid, back in the 80's when I was in school it was a very common practice, lot's of poor kids with new Trans Ams from working part time jobs.:rofl:
The biggest issue that cannot be overcome is Title IX, how can you pay women's soccer players when the soccer program is depending on the football program to pay it's expenses and scholarships now? How much does the tennis team make per player vs starting the starting QB or the freshman swimmer on the relay team??
The big schools like UGA/Alabama/Michigan can afford to pay football players, but what about the smaller schools? Would they all get paid the same or would the number 1 QB prospect get more at Alabama than at Auburn?
The focus is football, but the real issue is college athletics in general.
My youngest son is a freshman at Georgia, he's on the HOPE scholarship, it pays most of his tuition based on his grade point average. It still costs me $8-10K per semester for dorm, meal plan, books, parking, the remainder of his tuition etc. So a free education isn't a bad deal. I agree that college athletics is like a full time job, but it's also a full time job that prepares someone for a good career with a college degree without student loan costs. :D
 
Jhernandez04 said:
I was 17/18 years old and the best lineman in the state, what do you think I thought?

Football, was a way of life then. In college it was a job, hated that.

I played semi pro for a year and loved it, because it went back to being a game. Not a job.


College athletes are very hard workers, and they have no choice but to accept rules of the scholarship they recieve. But that doesnt mean its exactly fair. Does it?
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Fortunately, you've had the right to turn down the scholarship and not play
Football since 1865.

http://www.archives.gov/historical-...o the U.S. Constitution: Abolition of Slavery
 
nddons said:
Given that you said you kept this schedule the entire year except for 14 days off, it seems to me that your school was in gross violation of the NCAA rules on offseason workouts.

Student athletes are limited to eight hours a week of athletic activities (such as conditioning and weight lifting) in the off season.

Spring football workouts are limited to 4 hours a day and 20 hours a week.

There summer workouts can only be voluntary, with no coaches present.

I'm sure your schedule was significant during the season, but off season? I think you may be overstating the case a little bit.
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There is no off season, you might think its voluntary... but its not.
 
Jhernandez04 said:
There is no off season, you might think its voluntary... but its not.
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and you and you alone have managed to escape notice all NCAA inspectors and all other teams that would have reported your school for breaking the rules in order to get your games disqualified. You really are a amazing individual.
 
jtheune said:
and you and you alone have managed to escape notice all NCAA inspectors and all other teams that would have reported your school for breaking the rules in order to get your games disqualified. You really are a amazing individual.
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yeah, basketball teams don't ship off to other countries without the coaches and practice on their own. Nope, never happens.
 
jtheune said:
and you and you alone have managed to escape notice all NCAA inspectors and all other teams that would have reported your school for breaking the rules in order to get your games disqualified. You really are a amazing individual.
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Your hard headed, what are you not understanding.


The practices were labeled as voluntary, but what do you think happens to a player when the coaches find out they aren't attending the so called voluntary practices?

Naive..... is what you are.
 
bartmc said:
At what point did folks gain the right to intervene with an employer and employee salary negations?

WHY do you give a rat's ass if they get paid or not?
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Because it is not a job. Is it that complex? Sports is an extracurricular activity to a college or university; it is not its primary function.

That college football and basketball have been bastardized and bring in money to the university doesn't change that paradigm.
 
nddons said:
Because it is not a job. Is it that complex? Sports is an extracurricular activity to a college or university; it is not its primary function.

That college football and basketball have been bastardized and bring in money to the university doesn't change that paradigm.
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Since when did contract work stop being a job? Good information.....
 
You guys are missing another piece of the puzzle. Despite the money machine that football is I bet a good number of college administrators and professors do not like admitting it to themselves much less anyone else. Sure they know but must spin the hamster to deal with it. Paying athletes would destroy the mental machinations of denying the obvious. Plus if you were paying athletes at the big football schools based on value delivered they would be making more then the professors, and at other schools certainly more then graduate student/teaching fellow types. All of which would bring cries of outrage from the peanut gallery. Not saying it is fair, just reality.
 
Jhernandez04 said:
Digress all you want.


The players who bring the money in, should be compensated to scale that is fair for the amount of revenue generated from them participating in said sport.
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Title IX killed that years ago, don't think that the "fairness police" will allow any college athlete to be compensated more than any other college athlete. :mad2: Remember, the fencing team works hard too! :D
College sports are like full time jobs, football is a little tougher than most other sports, but they all require a lot of the student athletes time and energy. My sons have friends playing baseball and football on scholarship, a couple have quit and are either paying for school or doing something else. It's not an easy way to go to college, but it is a way that affords a lot of kids the chance at a good education, if that is what they desire. :)
 
Jhernandez04 said:
Your hard headed, what are you not understanding.


The practices were labeled as voluntary, but what do you think happens to a player when the coaches find out they aren't attending the so called voluntary practices?

Naive..... is what you are.
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Yes i‘m the hardheaded niave one. You and you alone know the truth about the inside story about a billion dollar scam and you only decide to share this knowledge on a small aviation web site.
 
Are student athletes on scholarship issued a W-2 or 1099 for tax purposes for said scholarship?
 
nddons said:
Because it is not a job. Is it that complex? Sports is an extracurricular activity to a college or university; it is not its primary function.

That college football and basketball have been bastardized and bring in money to the university doesn't change that paradigm.
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So Coaches, Administators, Advertisers, CBS/ESPN/NBC/ABC/XYZ, food vendors, printing shops, apparel vendors etc.. etc.. etc.. etc… are all allowed to profit on something that's "not a job". While the product being sold get's scraps?
 
docmirror said:
So, what do you think? Should the kids who bring in the revenue from college sports get a cut? If so, what happens when a revenue team plays a non-revenue team? Should players have to share their income with the other team? Should they also still fund non-revenue sports? How would it all be allocated and who gets to decide? NCAA, team, school, boosters, etc?
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I'm a traditionalist. I think the scholarship is sufficient compensation for what the player provides. If it wasn't, you'd have a hard time filling scholarships.

There is a lot of money involved in sports, but that's a separate issue.
 
EdFred said:
Are student athletes on scholarship issued a W-2 or 1099 for tax purposes for said scholarship?
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That and ALL people who receive scholarships... It is nothing but a cash windfall and needs to be reported and taxed..:yes:.....

As I have been saying for years.... The next big trick one political party will use to buy votes is to float the idea of forgiving student loans.. That is a 1 TRILLION dollar+ unfunded fiasco...
 
kyleb said:
I'm a traditionalist. I think the scholarship is sufficient compensation for what the player provides. If it wasn't, you'd have a hard time filling scholarships.

There is a lot of money involved in sports, but that's a separate issue.
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How do you determine what's sufficient? What do you say to the 19 year old who's having turn down multi-million dollar endorsement deals and walk back on the field and risk a career ending injury?

I think flight time alone is sufficient pay for a CFI. We should keep them from earning anything above and beyond the hours they get to log. They're only building time anyway.
 
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N801BH said:
That and ALL people who receive scholarships... It is nothing but a cash windfall and needs to be reported and taxed..:yes:.....

As I have been saying for years.... The next big trick one political party will use to buy votes is to float the idea of forgiving student loans.. That is a 1 TRILLION dollar+ unfunded fiasco...
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Some student loans are already forgivable. The current POTUS is who initiated the plan. It's been on the books for a while.
 
EdFred said:
OK, but for now they aren't. So it's not a job. It might be work, but it is not a job.
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Call it a paid internship. Our interns don't get paid what a partner gets paid. But they get something.

Hell, a lot of interns don't get paid anything. My daughter needed well over 1,000 hours of hands-on work with animals before she could even apply to vet schools. Four summers working 40-50 hours per week getting paid precisely zero. It's called " paying your dues."
 
Sports is a stupid way to choose who gets free money for education. That said, the world is competitive and if you do something other lazier people want to sit around and watch, you should get paid for it if anyone is willing to pay.
 
Could solve this whole problem by banning admissions charges to college events. Allow TV stations to televise the events without paying the schools anything. Take the money out of the question and see what arguments can be made then.
 
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