Flue Season is here- I opt out of flue shots.

I had the flu once.

I've gotten the shot ever since.

-Rich
 
cowtowner said:
Maybe you want to harken back to the day before the Polio vaccine where 20,000 American kids where paralyzed each year? Where over 1,000 of them died every year? Or back to the day when elementary schools were breeding grounds for Measles, Mumps and Rubella?
Click to expand...

Polios' most drastic decreases all came before the polio vaccination. It came down because of efforts to clean water, indoor plumbing, improvements in food delivery system as well as overall better sanitation.

vaccinations are a shell game.
 
bluee said:
I have a toddler, and I don't want my kid getting a disease that is now preventable from vaccines. I think those parents who don't vaccinate their kids put other kids at risk from disease, horrible illnesses like whooping cough that kill little babies who are too young to be vaccinated themselves. Ignorant people like Jenny McCarthy put little babies lives at risk.

I was pretty happy to find out there is now a vaccine for chicken pox, because I remember that as being a disgusting illness I don't wish upon anyone.
Click to expand...

Unfortunately, you may well have a chance to re-live those memories when you get older -- only worse. Don't ask me how I know...

-Rich
 
Tony_Scarpelli said:
Polios' most drastic decreases all came before the polio vaccination. It came down because of efforts to clean water, indoor plumbing, improvements in food delivery system as well as overall better sanitation.

vaccinations are a shell game.
Click to expand...

The figures I stated came from post war America. I think there was plenty of clean water, indoor plumbing and good food delivery during that time.
 
RJM62 said:
Unfortunately, you may well have a chance to re-live those memories when you get older -- only worse. Don't ask me how I know...

-Rich
Click to expand...

There is now a Shingles Vaccine. I plan to get it as my uncle just went through a horrible case
 
Tony_Scarpelli said:
I am sorry to scare you. I expect the anger from some. Kill the messenger, attack the messenger. If you do not believe simply look away it should cause you no problem. But you are really worried about what is said or heard by others. Why?
Click to expand...

I am certain I came off as condescending and arrogant, for which I apologize. However, I simply cannot stress how mistaken you are. You now have a genetic scientist and a physician in lock step telling you how wrong you are. Truly, what would it take to convince you that your view is factually incorrect? Hell, gary and I almost never agree on a single other thing.

Tony_Scarpelli said:
It must be nice for you to live in a world where you believe that FDA, CDC, Big Pharma, Big Medicine, our government in general and the politicians are looking out for you, your health, your family, your job, just like they did your social security and your pension.
Click to expand...

Stopping disease outbreaks is an inherent government function for which we can all be grateful. No one wants to be sick or wants their child to be sick. We have an outstanding inspection regimen for food stuffs, and we vaccinate for the most common communicable diseases. This is just basic common sense, disease outbreaks are expensive and reduce our ability to do those things we do as a nation.

Tony_Scarpelli said:
It is so much more comforting to my granddaughter to believe in the Easter Bunny although he does not exist either. So close your eyes, do not hurt your brain trying to understand the world you live in.
Click to expand...

Comparing vaccines to the Easter bunny is disingenuous. Vaccines are rigorously tested treatments with proven efficacy.

Tony_Scarpelli said:
We live in a time when the Chief legal counsel for a drug company can and does become assistant director for FDA and influence the safety and controls over their previous client.
Click to expand...

You would prefer Joe the plumber? Unfortunately, viable candidates for numerous industries are those with prior experience in the industry. It is not easily avoidable.

Tony_Scarpelli said:
It is not like there is no present on our government lying to us? Does anyone remember NAFTA? Free trade with China would make America stronger? Our $25 per hour best jobs are now averaged with Chinese and Indian workers incomes and those jobs either disappeared or pay $12 per hour or less if you consider inflation.
Click to expand...

The government also tells us the truth. Or are you one of those nutcases who denies the Moon landings took place?

Tony_Scarpelli said:
There is real money in vaccinations. Big Money politics changed the law to protect providers from suits. This is proof that vaccinations are dangerous. This is a real issue but you are buying the spin. No money, so we need to protect Pharma, haha. You should listen to yourself.
Click to expand...

Another fail. They were going to give up the business, doesn't make enough money to justify the liability.

Tony_Scarpelli said:
Do you think Fox news or MSNBC want to have pharmaceutical advertisement revenues boycott these channels? Like most Americans you have spent very little time considering any of this.
Click to expand...

Fox News does whatever makes the most money for its corporate masters. To be honest, when the NVIC was developed I don't' think it was legal for pharmaceutical companies to advertise their drugs.
 
I don't get the vaccine, but not because I don't believe in them, I skip because 1) I forget and 2) I'm low risk.

I wish I'd taken the shot a couple years ago though, spent nearly a week on my ass, 3-4 more days as the waking dead and another month getting back to normal. Might not have helped though (will never know) as it was a year when the folks that choose what strains to put into the vaccine missed the big one that went around. Nobody's perfect
 
I'm "enjoying" recovering from the flu right now. My birthday fun in Vegas was capped by both Karen and I enjoying the flu from our lovely time crammed into a SWA jet.

Knew better than to fly commercial. LOL. What a cesspool of germs.

Karen is required to get the flu shot... the final one wasn't out this year and her company hadn't set the date before we left. My company's offering is next week. ROFL.

Someone should point out that a typical flu shot only protects against whatever someone deems is the likely strains this year. Calling it a "vaccine" is true, but there's a lot more specific bugs we call "the flu" than we have "vaccine" for.

You can be "vaccinated" and be the winner of what's behind door number three.

Anyway, so much for flying last weekend, and probably this coming weekend. I'm past the two days in bed and the body aches (worst I've ever had...), and now into the secondary infections and clogged orifices and orifices not so clogged and...

Guess what the good news is? I'm self-vaccinated against this particular strain now! LOL
 
cowtowner said:
There is now a Shingles Vaccine. I plan to get it as my uncle just went through a horrible case
Click to expand...

I have always wondered about that -

If I get chicken pox, and have an immunity to it from having the disease - how can I catch it again? Its like a flu shot - you get the shot- and it makes you immune to whatever they are injecting you with - how can you get it again?

I understand that the vaccination failure rate is known but how does my immune system forget??
 
comanchepilot said:
I have always wondered about that -

If I get chicken pox, and have an immunity to it from having the disease - how can I catch it again? Its like a flu shot - you get the shot- and it makes you immune to whatever they are injecting you with - how can you get it again?

I understand that the vaccination failure rate is known but how does my immune system forget??
Click to expand...

Yes. The same is true for vaccines - their efficacy wears off with time, which is why boosters are required with varying frequencies depending on the vaccine. However, boosters (beyond Tetanus, typically given out as DTaP) seem to often be forgotten about by many unless traveling to a specific high-risk area. DTaP has also gotten more publicity in recent years due to pertussis outbreaks in various parts of the country. Everybody is different, as well. Some will retain resistance longer than others.

One of the explanations I've heard is that typically people have chicken pox, then have kids who have chicken pox. This reminds their bodies "Hey, you don't like this," and resets the clock even though you don't get it yourself. Grandparents often don't spend as much time around kids and get it. I'm not sure if it's right or not, but it does make sense.

The CDC reports shingles has been on the rise and admits it doesn't know why.

The other aspect is different strains. Vaccines will protect against certain strains, but those don't include all and may not even include the most prolific strains. For instance, I believe it's rotavirus vaccine that only innoculates against maybe half of the common strains, but not the most common.
 
Sleepingsquirrel said:
"Manufacturers have projected that they will produce between 135 million and 139 million doses of influenza vaccine for use in the United States during the 2013-2014 influenza season. An estimated 30 million to 32 million of these doses will be quadrivalent flu vaccine. The rest will be trivalent flu vaccine."


Does anyone know which flu vaccine they got? Do we have a choice, or is it pot luck?
Click to expand...

According to http://www.cdc.gov/flu/protect/vaccine/general.htm :

"For 2013-2014, all live attenuated influenza vaccine (LAIV), the nasal spray vaccine, is quadrivalent."

So all the quadrivalent is administered as a nasal spray. If you got a shot, then you got trivalent. The CDC link provides more details on the differences.
 
denverpilot said:
Knew better than to fly commercial. LOL. What a cesspool of germs.
............
Guess what the good news is? I'm self-vaccinated against this particular strain now! LOL
Click to expand...

I find that when I fly commercial more often that my immune system response is better (less illness), and when I take a break from commercial travel for a while that my immune system response is worse.

Or as you say, self-vaccination by exposure to more germs over a longer period of time.

I still get the flu shot. After all, it's completely free. :rolleyes:

YMMV.
 
Keep in mind that a published immunization schedule does not mean it's being adhered to, just recommended. Yes, I noticed India said "mandatory." How many "mandatory" things have you not done?

Also, given the typical skepticism by the Chinese people of what's available in their country for children (baby food, etc.), I'd imaging many would be reluctant to get said vaccines. Could you really blame them?
 
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I don't know a darn thing about the human immune system, but I know a whole bunch about the real world effects and implications of vaccinations in animal agriculture. I've seen an effective vaccination program eradicate disease that was endemic to a multi-age continuously populated facility. I KNOW it works as advertised and would be terrified about going without an effective program. For example, we control salmonella with gene modified live competitive exclusion products as well as killed autogeneous vaccines that are specific to certain trans-ovarian strains as well as for general control. We will actually work with the vaccine companies to find and use certain specific isolates that come from the environment in our own facilities and develop the vaccine around the specific real challenges.

Vaccines work.
 
Steingar, I doubt that we will be able to get through to this guy. Vaccination might contaminate his precious bodily fluids.


 
Gary F said:
Steingar, I doubt that we will be able to get through to this guy. Vaccination might contaminate his precious bodily fluids.
Click to expand...

Which is sort of why I asked what it would take to convince him. Of course, once I asked deniers what it would take to convince them of anthropogenic climate change. While there was lots of heated discussion, no one answered that particular question.
 
steingar said:
Which is sort of why I asked what it would take to convince him. Of course, once I asked deniers what it would take to convince them of anthropogenic climate change. While there was lots of heated discussion, no one answered that particular question.
Click to expand...
This is Hangar Talk so I will not challenge your religious beliefs here. Noon, tomorrow, SZ.
 
Jim Logajan said:
According to http://www.cdc.gov/flu/protect/vaccine/general.htm :

"For 2013-2014, all live attenuated influenza vaccine (LAIV), the nasal spray vaccine, is quadrivalent."

So all the quadrivalent is administered as a nasal spray. If you got a shot, then you got trivalent. The CDC link provides more details on the differences.
Click to expand...

Yes I read that but this is also from the CDC site:


"The flu shot: The viruses in the flu shots are either killed (inactivated) or recombinant (don’t contain virus particles), so you cannot get the flu from a flu shot.
The QUADRIVALENT vaccine has not been used in previous seasons, but its safety profile in pre-licensure trials has been very similar to the older trivalent flu vaccines.
Most people who receive the flu shot do not experience serious problems from it. Mild problems that may be experienced include soreness, redness, or swelling where the shot was given, fainting (mainly adolescents), headache, muscle aches, fever, and nausea. If these problems occur, they usually begin soon after the shot and last 1-2 days. Life-threatening allergic reactions to vaccines are very rare. If they do occur, it is usually within a few minutes to a few hours after the shot is given."
:
 
steingar said:
I am certain I came off as condescending and arrogant, for which I apologize.
Click to expand...

No Problem, Accepted.

steingar said:
However, I simply cannot stress how mistaken you are.
Click to expand...

I am always willing to listen but I do not automatically accept things because they appear to come from "Official" sources. Experts often rely on training which comes from these same corrupted official sources so it is not automatic that they are correct as some where down the line they are basing their observations on assumed facts that may have been planted. I'm not saying they do not know what they are talking about nor that they are corrupt but they might have been fed bad information. For example once Doctors leave medical school and their internships they perform continuing education but much of this is offered by the sources themselves. Much information that doctors believe they know about a drug come from the drug companies.

My experience in Special Forces and in life is that "official" sources are very easy to corrupt. They are the first targets of propaganda as that makes the rest of the task easier down the line.

It is another topic to discus some of the corrption of knowledge from academia.

steingar said:
You now have a genetic scientist and a physician in lock step telling you how wrong you are. Truly, what would it take to convince you that your view is factually incorrect? Hell, gary and I almost never agree on a single other thing.
Click to expand...

Am I wrong that vaccinations can never do harm?
Am I wrong that vaccinations are not always 100% effective nor 50% effective?
Am I wrong that FDA cannot be completely trusted to deliver drugs that do not harm us?
Am I wrong that the drug companies influence over FDA is too strong and not health for America?
Am I wrong that many drugs get through FDA that cause more harm than good?
Am I wrong that a drug not need be better than less risky alternatives to be approved and accepted by FDA?
Am I wrong that a drug need be no more effective than white apple vinegar is to reduce high blood sugar to be approved as an expensive potentially dangerous drug?
Am I wrong that we do not know all the ramifications on every system in the body or interactions between chemicals on every drug released into the system?
Am I wrong that simple things like good nutrician, exercise and sunlight daily and normal sleep have more to do with your good health and resistance to most of these maladies than vaccinations based on the efficacy studies of these same vaccinations?
Am I wrong that money corrupts? Am I wrong that we are talking about enough money that it corrupts almost absolutely?
Am I wrong that Drug companies commission and pay for studies on their proposed drugs and then do not submit those studies that do not support their application for approval to FDA?
Am I wrong that there is an industry of research facilities setup to work out studies that will give only the most positive results on outcomes paid for by those companies, which are submitted to FDA for approvals?
Am I wrong that there are billions of dollars thrown around in this mostly government funded mandate?
Am I wrong that Richard Rumsfeld was chief counsel for Monsanto and later became asst director of FDA and largely stopped government efforts to label genetically altered foods? How does a lawyer have the expert knowledge to run FDA?

Am I wrong that there could be other "most important" motives to support a US capacity to do chemical and biological (warfare) research which is otherwise outlawed by international conventions?

steingar said:
Stopping disease outbreaks is an inherent government function for which we can all be grateful. No one wants to be sick or wants their child to be sick. We have an outstanding inspection regimen for food stuffs, and we vaccinate for the most common communicable diseases.
Click to expand...

I agree with this. It is purpose of government. Why is it that the same people who claim the government is too big, cannot be trusted to check your temperature believes with absolute certainty that everything from CDC and FDA is absolutely right? There is no corruption, no revolving doors between the hen-house and the fox?

steingar said:
This is just basic common sense, disease outbreaks are expensive and reduce our ability to do those things we do as a nation.
Click to expand...

I agree with this too but I also see many instances of over exaggeration of both the severity of the causes and the protection of the inoculations while under stating the side effects to some.

steingar said:
Comparing vaccines to the Easter bunny is disingenuous. Vaccines are rigorously tested treatments with proven efficacy.
Click to expand...

If you lower the standards enough you can call anything "proven efficacy."

What is the proven efficacy of clean water? Fresh organic vegetables and fruit? Non hormone produced chicken, pork, meats and dairy? Fresh fish without mercury?

steingar said:
You would prefer Joe the plumber?
Click to expand...

I believe that most plumbers are less corrupt than the overall drug industry and lawyers who go back and forth between private practice and regulators.

steingar said:
Unfortunately, viable candidates for numerous industries are those with prior experience in the industry.
Click to expand...

Lawyers working for lobbies and pesticide companies? Really?

steingar said:
It is not easily avoidable.
Click to expand...

You asked what it would take for me to listen, first I have to know that the information given me is not tainted, corrupted, politicized, legalized in the quagmire of government/corporate corruption.

steingar said:
The government also tells us the truth.
Click to expand...

It is much easier to loose or violate trust than it is to regain it. We live in a corporate world. Everything we think we know comes from some boardroom somewhere, directly or indirectly. I'd say we get 8% truth and about 92% corporate truth.

steingar said:
Fox News does whatever makes the most money for its corporate masters.
Click to expand...
It also has an agenda. If you watch documentaries about Ruppard Murdoch by the BBC you will see how he leveraged his fathers small newspaper backing politicos in England into his current politically charged empire that even the right is afraid to attempt to control or regulate.

steingar said:
To be honest, when the NVIC was developed I don't' think it was legal for pharmaceutical companies to advertise their drugs.
Click to expand...

That would be a gigantic step towards regaining credibility of the industry if it became illegal for drug companies to advertise to end users.
 
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I watched an interesting documentary called "farmagadden"

Do you feed your chickens progesterone and antibiotic laden grain so that they grow more white meat, faster?

Farmers and ranchers under pressure of survivable economy and profits often convince themselves that high density feedlots with hormones for growth, antibiotic also helps them grow faster but also keeps some illness at bay, is the healthy way to produce our foods.

Does over use of antibiotics represent a risk to humans of super bugs?
Does hormone grown meats produce human risks?

What do the doctor and geneticist say about that?


James_Dean said:
I don't know a darn thing about the human immune system, but I know a whole bunch about the real world effects and implications of vaccinations in animal agriculture. I've seen an effective vaccination program eradicate disease that was endemic to a multi-age continuously populated facility. I KNOW it works as advertised and would be terrified about going without an effective program. For example, we control salmonella with gene modified live competitive exclusion products as well as killed autogeneous vaccines that are specific to certain trans-ovarian strains as well as for general control. We will actually work with the vaccine companies to find and use certain specific isolates that come from the environment in our own facilities and develop the vaccine around the specific real challenges.

Vaccines work.
Click to expand...
 
Tony_Scarpelli said:
I watched an interesting documentary called "farmagadden"

Do you feed your chickens progesterone and antibiotic laden grain so that they grow more white meat, faster?

Farmers and ranchers under pressure of survivable economy and profits often convince themselves that high density feedlots with hormones for growth, antibiotic also helps them grow faster but also keeps some illness at bay, is the healthy way to produce our foods.

Does over use of antibiotics represent a risk to humans of super bugs?
Does hormone grown meats produce human risks?

What do the doctor and geneticist say about that?
Click to expand...
I am not an expert in that area but I believe that antibiotics are overused in both human medicine and in the production of livestock.
 
Since this trust debate revolves around trust of government and how industry effects government presented facts, does anyone wish to comment on the make up of the Food Pyramid? Which is largely discredited?

If the subject of vacines is open and shut case then why were there several hospitals who had to threaten to fire their nurses for refusing inoculations? Why did the Nursing unions fight this? Why did several hospitals have to back down from their demands and threats of terminations?

Both government and industry will tell you that fracking for natural gas does not pollute water but the city administrator of Pratt, KS tells how their county has no water for farming as it was either used or polluted by gas fracking.

How about the experts Allan Greenspan who said the markets will largely manage the flows of money and that wall street does not need to be regulated. The corporate worlds finds an expert and then promotes him to Super star status and then in lock step repeats his findings as if it were the 2nd coming of Christ. The whole industry rallys behind its paid guns and congress is convinced and regulators are muzzled and money is raked in and rich get richer (nothing wrong with that unless it is done wrongly hurting people) and the society as a whole pays the price.

Allan Greenspan was a Harvard professor who sold his expertise to the Keating 5 on the Savings and Loan crises of the 80's. He testified that Keating did no wrong. Dispite this lie Keating when to Jail and Allan Greenspan got $100k for his testimony and later rewarded as a faithful upholder of conservative cause and got into politics. On the record after the crash of 2008, after he retired a millionaire he said "I got it wrong."

How about Fluoridation in our city water? Is that open and shut case also? Fluoride both naturally occurring but also a by product toxic waste from the production of steel/iron. Carnegie needed a way to get rid of this toxic waste and so it was propagandized to make bones and teeth stronger and sold to municipalities.
 
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Tony_Scarpelli said:
Experts often rely on training which comes from these same corrupted official sources so it is not automatic that they are correct as some where down the line they are basing their observations on assumed facts that may have been planted.
Click to expand...

Here's the source of your problem.

The physical world has no "training" and does not obey government edicts.

Science is required -- let me emphasize that -- R E Q U I R E D -- to connect itself with the physical world, or it is not valid. That is not true for politics, religion, economics, conspiracy theories, law, and a variety of other incorrect analogies.

If you haven't looked at real studies, you'll have to take our word for it. Science does not lie easily, because of that connection. Someone -- like Wakefield -- may attempt a lie, but it gets uncovered when people can't replicate it. And that's where your assertions completely fall apart.
 
Tony_Scarpelli said:
Since this trust debate revolves around trust of government and how industry effects government presented facts, does anyone wish to comment on the make up of the Food Pyramid? Which is largely discredited?
Click to expand...

The food pyramid was discredited .... by the government.

So, were they lying back then, or now, or perhaps does the simpler explanation that new facts were discovered explain it?
 
Science? Is completely at the digression of the liars.

Until recently my dentist would lose his ability to practice if he spouted anything but the party line about dental mercury. Now it is know science but for 30 years people have been inhaling Mercury vapor and being told by science, doctors, purveyors of science that it was safe. While at the same time other scientists say that there is no safe level of Mercury because it builds up in the system and the body does not easily get rid of it.


MAKG1 said:
Here's the source of your problem.

The physical world has no "training" and does not obey government edicts.

Science is required -- let me emphasize that -- R E Q U I R E D -- to connect itself with the physical world, or it is not valid. That is not true for politics, religion, economics, conspiracy theories, law, and a variety of other incorrect analogies.

If you haven't looked at real studies, you'll have to take our word for it. Science does not lie easily, because of that connection. Someone -- like Wakefield -- may attempt a lie, but it gets uncovered when people can't replicate it. And that's where your assertions completely fall apart.
Click to expand...
 
MAKG1 said:
The food pyramid was discredited .... by the government.

So, were they lying back then, or now, or perhaps does the simpler explanation that new facts were discovered explain it?
Click to expand...

You should research this a bit more as you clearly do not know what happened and possibly not even what I am referring two.
 
Your are saying that it is black and white and that science says its safe its on and if science says it is not safe it is off.

Not true and very naive.

Why is poison allowed in almost every mouth wash?

Why is poison allowed in almost every tooth paste?

Why are dangerous hormones allowed in the food supply?

Science predicts super bugs from over use of antibiotics yet over use exists they are even in our food supply.

Why are dangerous chemicals allowed in hair dye? Makeup? Perfumes? Chemical home cleaners?

Where is your science to protect the masses?

How do you explain autism now 1 in 40? Raising rates of MS, MD, and just about every Cancer.

marketing decisions are made by marketing science not made by medical science.






MAKG1 said:
Here's the source of your problem.

The physical world has no "training" and does not obey government edicts.

Science is required -- let me emphasize that -- R E Q U I R E D -- to connect itself with the physical world, or it is not valid. That is not true for politics, religion, economics, conspiracy theories, law, and a variety of other incorrect analogies.

If you haven't looked at real studies, you'll have to take our word for it. Science does not lie easily, because of that connection. Someone -- like Wakefield -- may attempt a lie, but it gets uncovered when people can't replicate it. And that's where your assertions completely fall apart.
Click to expand...
 
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OK, I guess I better leave the observatory because some MBA/IT nutcase says I don't understand science.

Dude, you need to buy stock in tinfoil companies. You're seriously off your rocker here.

It's VERY clear that you don't know what science is or how it works, yet you know enough to call all of us liars. How clever.
 
Tony_Scarpelli said:
I watched an interesting documentary called "farmagadden"

Do you feed your chickens progesterone and antibiotic laden grain so that they grow more white meat, faster?

Farmers and ranchers under pressure of survivable economy and profits often convince themselves that high density feedlots with hormones for growth, antibiotic also helps them grow faster but also keeps some illness at bay, is the healthy way to produce our foods.

Does over use of antibiotics represent a risk to humans of super bugs?
Does hormone grown meats produce human risks?

What do the doctor and geneticist say about that?
Click to expand...

I'm not a meat producer, I'm in the egg business. I've been directly responsible for our animal husbandry practices and feed policy for about eight years and in that time I would tell you we've never fed a hormone and have used antibiotics only when prescribed by our veterinarian and in those cases was for specific treatment and not prophylactic. To the best of my recollection, we have not used an antibiotic in the production phase for several years now, but have used them for treatment in the pullet growing phase within the last year.

Tony_Scarpelli said:
Do you feed your chickens progesterone and antibiotic laden grain so that they grow more white meat, faster?
Click to expand...

No.

Tony_Scarpelli said:
Farmers and ranchers under pressure of survivable economy and profits often convince themselves that high density feedlots with hormones for growth, antibiotic also helps them grow faster but also keeps some illness at bay, is the healthy way to produce our foods.
Click to expand...

Funny thing about that. I very much feel that I have to produce what sells. I have to operate within the law and *I* feel bound to operate ethically. However, the average consumer goes to the big box store and buys the cheapest thing. We have this issue in animal agriculture called "production momentum". I have huge dollars invested in my production capacity that is going to produce whether I can sell economically in the market or not. In this scenario fractions of a cent per unit matter tremendously. At the end of the day, I produce a commodity and the consumer, for the most part, treats me that way. It's kind of a what came first question. The best thing you can do if you want hormone and antibiotic free products is to look for that on the label and buy it. That is the most clear signal you can send to the industry. Those products are certainly out there and available and the testing and labeling requirements are pretty stout. If you want eggs produced on the moon I'll figure out how to do it as long as you pay for it.

Tony_Scarpelli said:
Does over use of antibiotics represent a risk to humans of super bugs?
Click to expand...

IMO, not as much as the over prescription and consumption of antibiotics by humans. As I said, I will only use antibiotics when the vet tells me it is in the best interest of the birds in light of a specific challenge. I have no issue with that at all. I am opposed to using antibiotics as a preventative measure.

Tony_Scarpelli said:
Does hormone grown meats produce human risks?
Click to expand...

By "hormone grown", you mean the farmer adding more of the hormones that are their naturally in smaller quantities? Again, in my business, even if I wanted to do this there is no label approved product so anything done would be detectable and illegal. I believe this is also true for broilers.

Tony_Scarpelli said:
What do the doctor and geneticist say about that?
Click to expand...

I can't speak for them, but I will offer my opinion. You appear to be willing to be swayed by half-baked science and propaganda in the face of legitimate science, evidence and regulation.
 
I do not know if you know science or not but you certainly do not seem know life and the way this world works. Your ego makes you have to take pot shots at anyone who doesn't believe what your level of understanding is. You cannot discus it rationally without attacking those who believe differently than you.


MAKG1 said:
OK, I guess I better leave the observatory because some MBA/IT nutcase says I don't understand science.

Dude, you need to buy stock in tinfoil companies. You're seriously off your rocker here.

It's VERY clear that you don't know what science is or how it works, yet you know enough to call all of us liars. How clever.
Click to expand...
 
ChitDisturber said:
I don't get them

Just vaccinations for things that will kill me, hep, yellow fever, typhoid, etc

Best thing to do to stay healthy is be healthy, I eat right, I'm active and seldom get sick and when I do it's a slight runny nose/caugh for a few days and that's that.

Read up on diffrent types of immunities, I skip flu etc vacs
Click to expand...

Couple hundred die from flu every year. Millions died in the last pandemic.
 
I pay about $2.50 per dozen organic eggs that I bought from a local producer and pay about $1 more per gallon for organic milk. I buy some but not all organic veggies which means I do not shop much at walmart/sams for food. I put my money where my mouth is.

It is no so much that I believe every half baked idea out there but it is that I don't watch what the Kardisans Girls are doing on TV and instead, I read and pay attention when walmart apple juice from china has arsenic in it, or baby food has antifreeze in it, or pet food is tainted and 100s of animals die from Chinese produced dog and cat foods.

I believe food especially should be locally sourced to the extent possible. I beleive in sustainable living and sustainable farming.

You might see if Wholefoods is interested in buying better quality eggs and chickens. I might be the minority but I am definitely not alone in wanting good quality food for my family.

You are right it costs much more to eat healthier foods. If you get into producing sustainable healthy foods then the educated consumer is your best friend.

James_Dean said:
I'm not a meat producer, I'm in the egg business. I've been directly responsible for our animal husbandry practices and feed policy for about eight years and in that time I would tell you we've never fed a hormone and have used antibiotics only when prescribed by our veterinarian and in those cases was for specific treatment and not prophylactic. To the best of my recollection, we have not used an antibiotic in the production phase for several years now, but have used them for treatment in the pullet growing phase within the last year.



No.



Funny thing about that. I very much feel that I have to produce what sells. I have to operate within the law and *I* feel bound to operate ethically. However, the average consumer goes to the big box store and buys the cheapest thing. We have this issue in animal agriculture called "production momentum". I have huge dollars invested in my production capacity that is going to produce whether I can sell economically in the market or not. In this scenario fractions of a cent per unit matter tremendously. At the end of the day, I produce a commodity and the consumer, for the most part, treats me that way. It's kind of a what came first question. The best thing you can do if you want hormone and antibiotic free products is to look for that on the label and buy it. That is the most clear signal you can send to the industry. Those products are certainly out there and available and the testing and labeling requirements are pretty stout. If you want eggs produced on the moon I'll figure out how to do it as long as you pay for it.



IMO, not as much as the over prescription and consumption of antibiotics by humans. As I said, I will only use antibiotics when the vet tells me it is in the best interest of the birds in light of a specific challenge. I have no issue with that at all. I am opposed to using antibiotics as a preventative measure.



By "hormone grown", you mean the farmer adding more of the hormones that are their naturally in smaller quantities? Again, in my business, even if I wanted to do this there is no label approved product so anything done would be detectable and illegal. I believe this is also true for broilers.



I can't speak for them, but I will offer my opinion. You appear to be willing to be swayed by half-baked science and propaganda in the face of legitimate science, evidence and regulation.
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Tony_Scarpelli said:
Why is poison allowed in almost every mouth wash?

Why is poison allowed in almost every tooth paste?

Why are dangerous hormones allowed in the food supply?

Science predicts super bugs from over use of antibiotics yet over use exists they are even in our food supply.

Why are dangerous chemicals allowed in hair dye? Makeup? Perfumes? Chemical home cleaners?
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Is the record increase in human life span because of all these poisons or in spite of them?

life-expectancy-through-the-ages.jpg


life-expectancy-throughout-history-long-trend.gif


Just wondering.
 
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