Flue Season is here- I opt out of flue shots.

It seems people on here don't understand the meaning of the :rolleyes:
 
The flu can lead to bacterial pneumonia in a few individuals, usually the very young or very old. Occasionally somebody will have a very severe response it. We had a guy in his 20s die at our hospital of influenza last year.
 
teamcoltra said:
Actually, I believe that anyone who does not immunize their child should be charged with child endangerment. It does not only endanger their children, but the children who are allergic to vaccines who depend on communities to be free from ailments.
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So then how do you feel about the recommended CDC schedule? Does your feeling apply to all vaccines on the current recommended schedule? What about alternate schedules that spread them out and make it more likely that any allergies could be isolated to a specific vaccine rather than be more difficult to say? Are all ailments vaccinated against equal in need? Are all vaccines themselves equal?

For reference:

http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/parents/downloads/parent-ver-sch-0-6yrs.pdf

Note that, per CDC recommendations, a child born today gets Hep B immediately, as many as 6 vaccines at 2 months (against 8 different ailments)
 
Ted DuPuis said:
So then how do you feel about the recommended CDC schedule? Does your feeling apply to all vaccines on the current recommended schedule? What about alternate schedules that spread them out and make it more likely that any allergies could be isolated to a specific vaccine rather than be more difficult to say? Are all ailments vaccinated against equal in need? Are all vaccines themselves equal?

For reference:

http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/parents/downloads/parent-ver-sch-0-6yrs.pdf

Note that, per CDC recommendations, a child born today gets Hep B immediately, as many as 6 vaccines at 2 months (against 8 different ailments)
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I believe that each person should be able to decline vaccinations or any medical treatment. Parents should be able to decide for minor children. Medical science is not perfect but we know that in the not to distant past many people suffered or died from diseases that can be prevented or minimized with modern vaccines. Smallpox was even eradicated by this technology. You don't even need to avail yourselves to any medical treatment as in some cases it can be detrimental. Hep B is really bad and it is a good disease to avoid getting.
 
Gary F said:
I believe that each person should be able to decline vaccinations or any medical treatment. Parents should be able to decide for minor children. Medical science is not perfect but we know that in the not to distant past many people suffered or died from diseases that can be prevented or minimized with modern vaccines. Smallpox was even eradicated by this technology. You don't even need to avail yourselves to any medical treatment as in some cases it can be detrimental. Hep B is really bad and it is a good disease to avoid getting.
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I agree with everything you've said. My point was the the quoted poster made a blanket statement that sounded roughly as logical as "I'm not giving my kids any vaccines because I heard that MMR cause autism." So I was interested in clarification, because I'm guessing that said poster is more logical.

I wasn't singling out Hep B, just pointing out that the schedule recommends it as a newborn. I didn't feel like listing all the ones at the 2-month mark. The intent of the Hep B for a newborn is so that if the mother has it, the child won't get it. Certainly logical for those children that are born to a Hep B positive mother. For the >99% of kids who aren't, it is certainly a worthwhile vaccine to get at some point. I seem to recall getting it in the range of age 10, and my mother commenting to the doctor about how it should be free given my relation to one of people heavily involved in its creation.
 
Tony_Scarpelli said:
Try to get at least 15 minutes a day of direct sunlight more if possible. For some of us that gets difficult. Sol or room on our homes are more than just fancy rooms they can be a real contribution to health.



http://www.nvic.org/Vaccine-Memorial.aspx
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Once a woman with the flu sneezed directly on me. It was wet. My face was covered with her germ filled nasal secretions. But...I didnt get the flu as i was wearing blue socks that day. Blue socks prevent the flu. I have never, EVER...contracted the flu whilst wearing blue socks and the woman with the flu sneezing on me while wearing blue socks PROVES this.

Also, no shark has ever eaten a human using an iPad. Therefore iPads prevent shark attacks.
 
"Manufacturers have projected that they will produce between 135 million and 139 million doses of influenza vaccine for use in the United States during the 2013-2014 influenza season. An estimated 30 million to 32 million of these doses will be quadrivalent flu vaccine. The rest will be trivalent flu vaccine."


Does anyone know which flu vaccine they got? Do we have a choice, or is it pot luck?
 
Tony_Scarpelli said:
http://www.thelibertybeacon.com/2013/02/18/6755/
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Merck Whistleblower Suit A Boon to Vaccine Foes Even As It Stresses Importance of Vaccines

While the Justice Department has refused to rule on the case after conducting its own two-year investigation, the allegations are crucial for a couple of reasons.

Without doubt, if true, they offer an extremely damaging view into the inner process of a company accused of misleading both regulators and consumers about a vital medical product. This is exactly the kind of profit-centered, patient-careless attitude many consumer advocates, vaccine opponents, and non-believers of all stripes ascribe to Big Pharma.

But the suit also serves to remind that vaccines are essential to preventing disease and that any drop in their efficacy is likely to result in disease resurgence and endanger the public’s health.

Unfortunately, what should be a clear distinction between scientific truth and a single alleged case of scientific misconduct is all too readily muddied by anti-vaccination advocates who conflate the two in order to advance their particular kind of dogma.
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Everskyward said:
Merck Whistleblower Suit A Boon to Vaccine Foes Even As It Stresses Importance of Vaccines
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IMO you bolded the wrong bit. Here's my stab at it...

Without doubt, if true, they offer an extremely damaging view into the inner process of a company accused of misleading both regulators and consumers about a vital medical product. This is exactly the kind of profit-centered, patient-careless attitude many consumer advocates, vaccine opponents, and non-believers of all stripes ascribe to Big Pharma.

But the suit also serves to remind that vaccines are essential to preventing disease and that any drop in their efficacy is likely to result in disease resurgence and endanger the public’s health.

Unfortunately, what should be a clear distinction between scientific truth and a single alleged case of scientific misconduct is all too readily muddied by anti-vaccination advocates who conflate the two in order to advance their particular kind of dogma.
Click to expand...
 
3393RP said:
Welp, those are certainly some mainstream, well known websites...

:rofl::rofl::rofl:
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Aeric said:
Proof positive that any whackjob can create a website...
:lol::rofl:
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Not the best reasoning to discount their content. The problem I see with them is that none of the information presented in them is relevant to whether this season's flu shot is safe or effective.

Specifically, even if the Merck vaccine fraud is true, it would be no more relevant to the current flu shots than a single case of fraud X in field of human endeavor Y proving anything about field Y.

And unless the flu shots used a live virus, the article mentioning live polio vaccines causing polio isn't relevant either.

The statistical arguments that point out that polio was declining anyway so the vaccine might not have nothing to do with further decline appear to be restatements of the rule that correlation does not prove causation. The same principle, ironically, would indicate that the polio stats say nothing about the safety and efficacy of the current flu shots. One has to look at the underlying molecular biology and what is known about the immune system and see if the claims makes sense or not.

The science, as best I can tell, seems to point to vaccination as effective and generally safe. On balance the stats indicate one is better off getting vaccinated than not.
 
Perhaps the idea of inoculations started as a mistake but has grown in profit. Could the whole industry be a hoax?
 
It's also Flue season. This is the time of year when the first cold snaps occur and people decide to stoke up a good hot fire in their wood stove and ignite the accumulated creosote in the chimney. Get your flues cleaned!
 
SkyHog said:
I still do not get flu shots, even after getting H1N1 a few years ago. It sucked, but still.
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Wouldn't it have been nice if the guy you caught the flu from had decided to get immunized?
 
Flu vaccines do much more benefit than harm. I think it is murderous to try to talk people out of getting flu vaccines and other important vaccines. Vaccines have saved millions of lives, with the loss of only a few.

The garbage that Tony Scarpelli linked is similar propaganda that Al Qaeda uses.

Two dead in latest attack on Pakistani polio workers
http://www.latimes.com/world/worldn...orkers-20131007,0,2690393.story#axzz2iXMG4qQx

WHO suspends Pakistan operations after polio workers shot dead
http://worldnews.nbcnews.com/_news/...stan-operations-after-polio-workers-shot-dead

Taliban shoot dead THREE MORE polio aid workers
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...tion-ruse-helped-capture-Osama-bin-Laden.html

Nigeria Polio Vaccine Workers Killed, Boko Haram Suspected
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/02/08/nigeria-polio-vaccine-workers-killed_n_2647539.html

The vaccines that the US civilian medical community uses, should be very safe, though not without risk.

One of the times I would be skeptical of vaccines, medicines or vitamins; is when the government has control of information and the medicine. Our government has done some dubious things under the guise of medicine. Soldiers are sometimes used as guinea pigs to test unknown substances. Some government controlled institutions and programs also has used patients as guinea pigs. Patients are often injected with experimental things, but told it is a vaccine, or vitamins.

One of things that I'm afraid about Obamacare, is the more control the government has over civilian medicine, the more likely vaccine and medicine programs would be used for nefarious purposes. The more likely the general public will be used as guinea pigs or worse. Forced sterilization's could be disguised as vaccinations. Eugenics/discrimination during pandemics, those deemed to be undesirable by the government could be issued placebos, while the rest get the good stuff.
 
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I was in health care for 40 years with 35 as the only physician in a rural area. I have seen the Influenza come and go. In my office we offered our employees the shot for free. No penalty for not getting it, but since they were busy employees and mothers and wives and soccer coaches, etc. they all took it.

October is a bit early as the vaccine wears off before the spring peak is over - I could babble on endlessly about why, but won't - and I take mine in mid November.
While the covered strains of Influenza (not colds) is a bit of a crap shoot each year, tipping the odds in your favor makes sense to Las Vegas Casinos, why wouldn't it for you?

If you believe you are impervious to infectious disease and don't want to take the vaccine then don't (shrug) No skin off my butt.
 
What is the official word on taking flu shots while you have Lyme or Babesia? Anecdotally I've heard that two different Lyme specialist docs do not want their patients to get a flu shot - supposedly hard on the system when you are already fighting a tick borne illness?
 
woodstock said:
What is the official word on taking flu shots while you have Lyme or Babesia? Anecdotally I've heard that two different Lyme specialist docs do not want their patients to get a flu shot - supposedly hard on the system when you are already fighting a tick borne illness?
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Not being sure who you consider official (but being pretty certain it's not a bunch of people on the internet), your most authoritative source is probably the manufacturer or cdc.gov

However I would probably be interested in what doctors who specialize in that area have seen. While it may not have the website and big names or dollars to back it, I doubt that cdc or manufacturers have much incentive to heavily research that. Kinda like believing my views on LOP vs Lycoming SI1094D.
 
comanchepilot said:
They are not free.

You are paying for them - and paying more for them than if the marketplace worked and you could buy them for $8 in a competitive market.

Your insurer pays $10-12 for them, instead of $8. And bills it to your employer - who pays a higher premium for it - and results in lower overall employment.

Its not free.
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Comparing the cost of the vaccine to the cost of the person getting sick with influenza they might as well be.
 
woodstock said:
What is the official word on taking flu shots while you have Lyme or Babesia? Anecdotally I've heard that two different Lyme specialist docs do not want their patients to get a flu shot - supposedly hard on the system when you are already fighting a tick borne illness?
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I'm not a doctor, but I have over half a century of experience being human. :dunno:

I would think that if you have a full blown case of the flu, the hit to your system would be a lot harder than what you get when you take the flu vaccine.

edit: I did have the flu about 12 years ago. It was pretty darned rugged. I would not want to go through something like that with a system already compromised with Lyme disease.
 
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Am I remembering correctly that not all flu shots are created equal? I seem to recall my primary care doctor last year talking about the shot approved by the insurance company not being the latest and greatest.
 
Rigged4Flight said:
I'm not a doctor, but I have over half a century of experience being human. :dunno:

I would think that if you have a full blown case of the flu, the hit to your system would be a lot harder than what you get when you take the flu vaccine.
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True, but your chances of a flu are less than 100%. If you get the vaccine, your chances of having the vaccine in your system is 100%.

Bob Noel said:
Am I remembering correctly that not all flu shots are created equal? I seem to recall my primary care doctor last year talking about the shot approved by the insurance company not being the latest and greatest.
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That is my understanding as well. As a general rule of thumb, I try to avoid brands that have mercury/aluminum, or at least minimize it. Of course that's not the only thing worth considering.
 
Rigged4Flight said:
I'm not a doctor, but I have over half a century of experience being human. :dunno:

I would think that if you have a full blown case of the flu, the hit to your system would be a lot harder than what you get when you take the flu vaccine.

edit: I did have the flu about 12 years ago. It was pretty darned rugged. I would not want to go through something like that with a system already compromised with Lyme disease.
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That was my thought too - but I heard this from two different Lyme docs. Who seem to border the edge of quackery, at times.
 
steingar said:
Comparing the cost of the vaccine to the cost of the person getting sick with influenza they might as well be.
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I was surprised at how much my ER bill was after I made a visit there a few days after I returned home from Europe this May. That ER visit for H1N1 and bacterial pneumonia cost over $6,000 and then there were other meds and follow up visits and follow up x-rays in addition to that initial ER charge. I was given the option of being admitted to the hospital (which would have boosted the charges by a lot) but I chose to go home.
 
Tony_Scarpelli said:
Perhaps the idea of inoculations started as a mistake but has grown in profit. Could the whole industry be a hoax?
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You really need to get over yourself. I am sorry to be so blunt, but I hate seeing pseudoscientific crap passed off as wisdom by those who obviously lack any. Vaccines actually make pharma companies very little money, so little that when the first malpractice suits started to emerge the pharma companies stopped making vaccines altogether. The federal government was wise enough to realize the importance of vaccination to public health and set up the National Vaccine Injury Compensation fund.

Vaccines make money for pharma companies, but nowhere near as much as a successful new drug.
 
woodstock said:
That was my thought too - but I heard this from two different Lyme docs. Who seem to border the edge of quackery, at times.
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What does the doc treating Lyme Disease say? That's really the one that counts....

Diana said:
I was surprised at how much my ER bill was after I made a visit there a few days after I returned home from Europe this May. That ER visit for H1N1 and bacterial pneumonia cost over $6,000 and then there were other meds and follow up visits and follow up x-rays in addition to that initial ER charge. I was given the option of being admitted to the hospital (which would have boosted the charges by a lot) but I chose to go home.
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It is expensive. And that's really the piece of the equation that people don't truly understand when choosing health "insurance". A flu shot is cheap prevention.
 
I just got mine this morning. I usually don't get one, but half my friends decided to pop out some kids in the past year, and one of the wive's works at a day care, so stuff will get passed around the office.
 
I am sorry to scare you. I expect the anger from some. Kill the messenger, attack the messenger. If you do not believe simply look away it should cause you no problem. But you are really worried about what is said or heard by others. Why?

It must be nice for you to live in a world where you believe that FDA, CDC, Big Pharma, Big Medicine, our government in general and the politicians are looking out for you, your health, your family, your job, just like they did your social security and your pension.

It is so much more comforting to my granddaughter to believe in the Easter Bunny although he does not exist either. So close your eyes, do not hurt your brain trying to understand the world you live in.

We live in a time when the Chief legal counsel for a drug company can and does become assistant director for FDA and influence the safety and controls over their previous client.

It is not like there is no present on our government lying to us? Does anyone remember NAFTA? Free trade with China would make America stronger? Our $25 per hour best jobs are now averaged with Chinese and Indian workers incomes and those jobs either disappeared or pay $12 per hour or less if you consider inflation.

There is real money in vaccinations. Big Money politics changed the law to protect providers from suits. This is proof that vaccinations are dangerous. This is a real issue but you are buying the spin. No money, so we need to protect Pharma, haha. You should listen to yourself.

Do you think Fox news or MSNBC want to have pharmaceutical advertisement revenues boycott these channels? Like most Americans you have spent very little time considering any of this.

steingar said:
You really need to get over yourself. I am sorry to be so blunt, but I hate seeing pseudoscientific crap passed off as wisdom by those who obviously lack any. Vaccines actually make pharma companies very little money, so little that when the first malpractice suits started to emerge the pharma companies stopped making vaccines altogether. The federal government was wise enough to realize the importance of vaccination to public health and set up the National Vaccine Injury Compensation fund.

Vaccines make money for pharma companies, but nowhere near as much as a successful new drug.
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You are responsible for what you say. If you're gullible, it's you that looks stupid. That's the way it is.

You're not responsible for the original fraud. The "physician" that did that got his license revoked. Frankly, he should be in prison. But you are indeed responsible for repeating BS uncritically.

You seem to have bought into the conspiracy theory thing hook, line, and sinker. As that's clearly a religious thing for you, you'll never be convinced otherwise. But it does mean that a lot of people will not respect such ill informed crap. And you have no right to expect them to.
 
Tony_Scarpelli said:
I am sorry to scare you. I expect the anger from some. Kill the messenger, attack the messenger. If you do not believe simply look away it should cause you no problem. But you are really worried about what is said or heard by others. Why?

It must be nice for you to live in a world where you believe that FDA, CDC, Big Pharma, Big Medicine, our government in general and the politicians are looking out for you, your health, your family, your job, just like they did your social security and your pension.

It is so much more comforting to my granddaughter to believe in the Easter Bunny although he does not exist either. So close your eyes, do not hurt your brain trying to understand the world you live in.

We live in a time when the Chief legal counsel for a drug company can and does become assistant director for FDA and influence the safety and controls over their previous client.

It is not like there is no present on our government lying to us? Does anyone remember NAFTA? Free trade with China would make America stronger? Our $25 per hour best jobs are now averaged with Chinese and Indian workers incomes and those jobs either disappeared or pay $12 per hour or less if you consider inflation.

There is real money in vaccinations. Big Money politics changed the law to protect providers from suits. This is proof that vaccinations are dangerous. This is a real issue but you are buying the spin. No money, so we need to protect Pharma, haha. You should listen to yourself.

Do you think Fox news or MSNBC want to have pharmaceutical advertisement revenues boycott these channels? Like most Americans you have spent very little time considering any of this.
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Believe anything that you desire. Good ahead and try to convince others as well. We will eventually find out who is right.
 

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Tony_Scarpelli said:
I am sorry to scare you. I expect the anger from some. Kill the messenger, attack the messenger. If you do not believe simply look away it should cause you no problem. But you are really worried about what is said or heard by others. Why?

It must be nice for you to live in a world where you believe that FDA, CDC, Big Pharma, Big Medicine, our government in general and the politicians are looking out for you, your health, your family, your job, just like they did your social security and your pension.

It is so much more comforting to my granddaughter to believe in the Easter Bunny although he does not exist either. So close your eyes, do not hurt your brain trying to understand the world you live in.

We live in a time when the Chief legal counsel for a drug company can and does become assistant director for FDA and influence the safety and controls over their previous client.

It is not like there is no present on our government lying to us? Does anyone remember NAFTA? Free trade with China would make America stronger? Our $25 per hour best jobs are now averaged with Chinese and Indian workers incomes and those jobs either disappeared or pay $12 per hour or less if you consider inflation.

There is real money in vaccinations. Big Money politics changed the law to protect providers from suits. This is proof that vaccinations are dangerous. This is a real issue but you are buying the spin. No money, so we need to protect Pharma, haha. You should listen to yourself.

Do you think Fox news or MSNBC want to have pharmaceutical advertisement revenues boycott these channels? Like most Americans you have spent very little time considering any of this.
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Wow......just wow.

Maybe you want to harken back to the day before the Polio vaccine where 20,000 American kids where paralyzed each year? Where over 1,000 of them died every year? Or back to the day when elementary schools were breeding grounds for Measles, Mumps and Rubella?

From where I sit right now, a church that is literally less than 4 miles away from me advocated what you are. This church has it's own airport and a hangar with more than one corporate jet, the "preacher" lives in a multi million dollar house. But yet a few weeks ago, a measles outbreak infected a large number of their congregation, putting real people at risk.

It's OK to have Tin Foil Hat opinions, but when those opinions put people's lives in jeopardy, then it becomes criminal in my opinion.
 
cowtowner said:
Wow......just wow.

Maybe you want to harken back to the day before the Polio vaccine where 20,000 American kids where paralyzed each year? Where over 1,000 of them died every year? Or back to the day when elementary schools were breeding grounds for Measles, Mumps and Rubella?

From where I sit right now, a church that is literally less than 4 miles away from me advocated what you are. This church has it's own airport and a hangar with more than one corporate jet, the "preacher" lives in a multi million dollar house. But yet a few weeks ago, a measles outbreak infected a large number of their congregation, putting real people at risk.

It's OK to have Tin Foil Hat opinions, but when those opinions put people's lives in jeopardy, then it becomes criminal in my opinion.
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:yeahthat::yes:
 
I have a toddler, and I don't want my kid getting a disease that is now preventable from vaccines. I think those parents who don't vaccinate their kids put other kids at risk from disease, horrible illnesses like whooping cough that kill little babies who are too young to be vaccinated themselves. Ignorant people like Jenny McCarthy put little babies lives at risk.

I was pretty happy to find out there is now a vaccine for chicken pox, because I remember that as being a disgusting illness I don't wish upon anyone.
 
steingar said:
I despise uninformed tripe. Vaccines have saved us from some of the world's worst scourges. I haven't yet received the flu vaccine this year but wouldn't demure, I just haven't got around to it. I haven't that much exposure so it isn't that big a priority, though as I get older it'd priority will increase. I certainly wouldn't forgo it because of some paranoid idiot ravings of folks who spout lots but know little.

A LOT more people have died from influenza than ever sickened from vaccines. If you think you've had the flu but didn't die or wish you were dead you didn't have the flu. More people died of a flu epidemic in WWI than bullets, bombs and gas combined.
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Well, you can also credit vaccines with throwing us into the world's worst scourge, overpopulation.
 
Henning said:
Well, you can also credit vaccines with throwing us into the world's worst scourge, overpopulation.
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I thought that the two most populous nations, India and China, don't vaccinate, or don't vaccinate all the poor, which is most of their populations.
 
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