Dropped the new bird at the avionics shop Friday!

[Marauder]

Both quotes/estimates say estimate at the top of the sheets, actually they both have the same estimate number on them. The president of the company and I both refer to these documents as "quotes" which may or may not be important at the end of the day. I have totalled up the equipment, at advertised prices and came up with $64,700.00 plus the quote has $1640 or $2706 for unnamed parts, which I assume are wire and connectors. So that is 67,400.00 for equipment and parts, I do have another $1500 that I agreed to for moving the autopilot mode selector which is mostly labor. So that puts us at $69,000.00 plus labor. The original quote/estimate was for $84,000.00 plus the autopilot mode controller $1500.00, should be $85,500 plus we had an interior shop remove and re-install the headliner, $1000?. Anything between $87-90K would be fine with me. The original quote was $11,500 in labor, later quote was $31,487.00 for labor. I truly understand the parts part of it, if we need a wobblygoogle connector to make the autopilot work with the G-600, I'm OK with that, but the labor is much easier to control.
And today was the end of the 6th week.

John - this is a gut wrenching process and I know what you are going through. The distinction between a quote and an estimate is very real. I found a site that provided good clarity on the differences:

Quotation Vs Estimate, What is The Difference Between an Estimate and a Quotation?

The differences in an estimate and a quote are very similar with one important difference. An estimate is a rough guess on how much something will cost without taking it apart to look at it. They base a price on what they can see is wrong. For example, if you take your car for an estimate for brakes pads and they give you the price for the pads plus labor to install. But when they take the wheel off and see that your rotors are worn to the ground they revise the estimate because there needs to be more work done.

A quotation is exactly how much something is going to cost you. The brake pads are a perfect example. You want a price on what the job is going to cost you when all is said and done. Ask for the quotation in writing and make sure that they will honor the quotation too. If a company refuses to put a quotation in writing then don’t let them do the work that usually means they are a little bit shady. An honest company or contractor will always put a quotation in writing.

The challenge with an estimate is that it is open ended. And that is a challenge in avionics. When I had my avionics upgrade quoted, I let them have access to my plane to evaluate it and provide the quote. I did not want any surprises since I had a fixed budget and I needed to know what it was going to cost me. I went to 5 shops and they all provided either an estimate or quote. The problem was that it ranged over $8k on a $32k job. Most of the variability was in the labor but even on the hardware, there was a substantial swing in price. Two of the shops refused to quote the work and I took them off my list.

If you trust the shop, they should be keeping you updated on unexpected findings or needed additional work. But that is the risk, if they find something that is a showstopper and you are working off of an estimate you have no recourse other than to accept it. The shop that did my work was spot on in this regard. There were no additional "surprises" for the original quoted work. I do know they did need to eat at least one. The additional work I had done was for add-ons like the flight director. It was not on the original quote because I did not ask for it (I wasn't aware my my AP supported it). They presented the option to me and I signed a separate quote for it.

If they intend to keep you as a customer, they will do right by you. And with the way the internet works, it is just bad business to take advantage of a customer when the whole world is watching...

Oh and by the way... my plane went in for the upgrade in mid October and I got it back on Christmas Eve...

 

[wabower]

It's interesting to watch some of these cat-and-mouse games.

A guy bought a plane last winter and then decided he wanted deice boots. Most of the planes of this type were made with boots as original equipment, but a few were not.

When he called the shop for a quote, he was told the job couldn't be quoted. The cost of the boots + labor to install could be determined, but all of the other plumbing would of necessity be purchased from salvage yards and overhauled prior to installation. The shop couldn't estimate the labor due to the unique circumstances, didn't know if such a job had ever been undertaken before, and found that Cessna's factory reps didn't either.

The shop quickly determined that the bird-dog work just to determine the cost of the job would be substantial and that they weren't willing to proceed without a commitment from the customer. The customer was reluctant to move forward "in the dark" and continued to press for quotes. The shop continued to decline, each time with the explanation that they simply could not put themselves in a no-win situation and would understand if the customer wanted to take the airplane to another shop for the work and that they would gladly share the information they had gathered to make it easier. The customer checked around and found that no other shop was willing to quote the job.

The job is complete and the system works as advertised. The customer was promptly advised as each cost became known, but didn't ever receive a quote. The job was expensive.

Another shop in the area simply marks the costs that cannot be determined as "T & M" (time and materials) on its quotes. If pressed the owner will provide a "best-case/worst-case guesstimate" of cost to repair, depending on the extent of the damage after the area has been opened sufficiently to obtain a better look.

This shop is also somewhat spooky about rotating beacons and under-wing landing lights that are flush with the bottom of the wing when retracted. The owner says that these devices operate in a very hostile environment, are subject to many different stresses over time, and most of the pieces including the gears are made of plastic. Many of the assemblies are old, brittle and "come apart in their hands" when they attempt to examine them, and if anything breaks due to old age or disuse the customer will swear that he broke it. All beacons found to be inop during the inspection are marked "T & M."

 

[N747JB]

I understand quotes and estimates, I have a body shop and supplements are part of the process and customers are told up front if we find something it discovered during the visual inspection prior to work beginning. I dropped the plane off on Friday April 26 and didn't get a written estimate/quote until I dropped off a check on April 30. They had 2 1/2 days to look at the plane and the scope of work to decide if there was a problem and we could have discussed it then and made whatever adjustments were necessary to stay within the budget. The shop has acknowledged they screwed up, the manager that quoted the job is not working on my plane and may not be there much longer.
Had I been given a parts quote and a labor guesstimate or range I wouldn't be having any heartburn. They second estimate included $6900.00 for engineering charges, the original had 0, not even mentioned. So, if the engineering was $3000.00 and ended up being $6900.00 for some plausible reason, we could talk, but zero to 7 grand??
I did get a picture texted to me showing the cockpit is back together, seats, seatbelt and cabin dividers are in.

 

[N747JB]

Grainy shot showing the cockpit is back together, that should be a good sign that they don't expect to take it out again.

 

[Ted]

"Oh, wait, we decided to take it out once more..."

 

[N747JB]

I hope you're wrong, but I have resigned myself that it will be ready when it's ready. I'd be a little less anxious if I had a final invoice.
I'm sure I'll have an update tomorrow.

"Oh, wait, we decided to take it out once more..."

 

[Ted]

I hope you're wrong, but I have resigned myself that it will be ready when it's ready. I'd be a little less anxious if I had a final invoice.
I'm sure I'll have an update tomorrow.

It's amazing for how expensive these things are how worthless they feel when you can't fly them. Doubly so when the reason you can't fly them has nothing to do with the plane's ability to fly.

 

[N747JB]

It's amazing for how expensive these things are how worthless they feel when you can't fly them. Doubly so when the reason you can't fly them has nothing to do with the plane's ability to fly.

I told my wife today, I'm not sure I feel qualified to do the test flight! I've only got maybe 10 hours in the plane and haven't flown it in 6 weeks! I may see if my CFI/mechanic wants to go with me, if they ever get finished and send me an invoice.

 

[Ted]

I told my wife today, I'm not sure I feel qualified to do the test flight! I've only got maybe 10 hours in the plane and haven't flown it in 6 weeks! I may see if my CFI/mechanic wants to go with me, if they ever get finished and send me an invoice.

I know the feeling. Even with 500 hours in the 310, after not flying it for 4 months at all I felt a little off to the 310 when it was time for the test flight following the engine install. I took my mechanic along and told him to watch the engine gauges and we briefed abort vs go.

 

[N747JB]

Today's update: we're getting close. invoice still isn't ready. may be ready Wednesday.

 

[N747JB]

Good news: Plane is complete except test runs.
Bad news: the invoice is ready and it's pretty much the "second quote" I received the week after the work began.
So, I'm talking to them tomorrow after I speak to an attorney that specializes in aviation. I'm still hopeful that we can resolve it ourselves, but not all that confident.

 

[Ted]

Good luck, John. Hope it all turns out well!

 

[N747JB]

Good luck, John. Hope it all turns out well!

Thanks Ted, I was really hoping after I talked to the company president a couple weeks ago that we would be much closer to the original quote.

 

[wabower]

Sounds like a Steve Martin routine.

"So can you explain why the engineering fee wasn't included in the first estimate"

"The answer is very simple. I forgot."

 

[N747JB]

Sounds like a Steve Martin routine.

"So can you explain why the engineering fee wasn't included in the first estimate"

"The answer is very simple. I forgot."

That's pretty much what I think I'll hear tomorrow! the only real difference in this bill and the second quote was the headliner didn't have to be replaced! And it looks like they charged $3600.00 to remove and re-install the headliner, a new one was $4900.00 I would have gladly paid $1300.00 more to get a NEW headliner!

 

[wabower]

Words in some documents include the suffix "ee" and "or" to define the status of the parties with respect to certain terms. I think the shop has unilaterally determined how those will be applied to the contemplated hose job on the Ford guy.

That's pretty much what I think I'll hear tomorrow! the only real difference in this bill and the second quote was the headliner didn't have to be replaced! And it looks like they charged $3600.00 to remove and re-install the headliner, a new one was $4900.00 I would have gladly paid $1300.00 more to get a NEW headliner!

 

[N747JB]

Words in some documents include the suffix "ee" and "or" to define the status of the parties with respect to certain terms. I think the shop has unilaterally determined how those will be applied to the contemplated hose job on the Ford guy.

Well, the latest installment in the avionics saga, is they want a meeting today at 2:30 to go over the bill line by line, which is code for justifying the invoice vs the quote.
I contacted the top guy at the company, he's the president of the entire group of companies, while the person I have been speaking to is the president of this subsidiary. No response other than the guy at the shop tells me he's out of the country and wouldn't be involved anyway.
I guess I'll head down there this afternoon and see what they have to say, I won't be taking my checkbook.

 

[RotorAndWing]

Well, the latest installment in the avionics saga, is they want a meeting today at 2:30 to go over the bill line by line, which is code for justifying the invoice vs the quote.
I contacted the top guy at the company, he's the president of the entire group of companies, while the person I have been speaking to is the president of this subsidiary. No response other than the guy at the shop tells me he's out of the country and wouldn't be involved anyway.
I guess I'll head down there this afternoon and see what they have to say, I won't be taking my checkbook.

I would take a lawyer.

 

[Jaybird180]

I would take a lawyer.

Why? It's still a billing dispute at this point. He'd be wasting money with a lawyer at that table.

 

[RotorAndWing]

Why? It's still a billing dispute at this point. He'd be wasting money with a lawyer at that table.

Your opinion. I've been there/done that.

Wasting money bringing an attorney or losing use of his airplane while "disputing the billing"?

Bringing the lawyer sends a strong message.

 

[N747JB]

Why? It's still a billing dispute at this point. He'd be wasting money with a lawyer at that table.

I am tempted to take someone, but I am willing to sit down and try to work out a solution. Once lawyers get involved, things escalate and it's hard to ever have a good relationship going forward. I prefer to come to an equitable solution and move on, I've been without my plane for almost 7 weeks for a 3-4 week job. I have a number in mind that I would consider as fair and it is above the quote by a considerable amount, just not $20K above.

 

[wabower]

"I'm not sure that the proposed meeting will serve any useful purpose at this point. Please send me a copy of the proposed invoice for review. Once that is completed, we can determine the next step in these negotiations."

 

[dell30rb]

"I'm not sure that the proposed meeting will serve any useful purpose at this point. Please send me a copy of the proposed invoice for review. Once that is completed, we can determine the next step in these negotiations."

So you can learn how bad they are screwing you in the comfort of your own home.

For some reason they are probably thinking that if they explain it to you line-by-line it won't come as so much of a shock.

 

[Ted]

I always want time to review an invoice before asking questions and paying. That way I have time to think about it and have a strategy.

Like John, I would rather start off without a lawyer, but if it goes poorly point out I'm happy to call one.

 

[N747JB]

I have a copy of the invoice, they emailed it last night, it's $108K less trade in on my old equipment. The original quote was $84K and I added a couple things for another $3K so we are $20K apart at this point, explaining the invoice isn't a great help to me at this point. I may not be the smartest guy in the room, even when I'm alone, but I can read an invoice and compare the bottom numbers.

 

[EppyGA]

Haul out your smart phone, tell them you have 1000 friends on facebook and a lot of them are aviation types like you and that in a matter of moments you can post n facebook how you feel you've been hosed.

 

[wabower]

The components that changed rather than the total amount would be of the most interest to me. My law dog used to say "Since we know up-front there's gonna be some misery involved in this deal, we need to spread it around so everybody gets to share in the fun."

I have a copy of the invoice, they emailed it last night, it's $108K less trade in on my old equipment. The original quote was $84K and I added a couple things for another $3K so we are $20K apart at this point, explaining the invoice isn't a great help to me at this point. I may not be the smartest guy in the room, even when I'm alone, but I can read an invoice and compare the bottom numbers.

 

[N747JB]

The components that changed rather than the total amount would be of the most interest to me. My law dog used to say "Since we know up-front there's gonna be some misery involved in this deal, we need to spread it around so everybody gets to share in the fun."

PM me your email address and I'll send you both quotes and the "final" invoice.
The only changes in equipment is the GDL 69A instead of the GDL 88 that was originally quoted, the 88 was on the revised quote as well. The biggest two items are engineering charges that went from $0 to $6900.00 and the headliner removal/reinstall that should be included in most any installation that requires an antenna on the top of the plane, no charge on original and I agreed to $500.00 after we got started and the headliner required an interior guy to take it out and back in. That charge is $3600.00
So, while I am in the drive thru at Chick-Fil-A the guy calls and wants to make sure I got his email changing our meeting from today until tomorrow. I was already on my way to their shop, it's an hour drive!
I may meet with them tomorrow and I may just go to the beach.

 

[N747JB]

Well, she's done, mostly. I flew the 182 down today and settled the bill, not exactly what I wanted, but I think it was fair to both of us.
Test flight #1. Air conditioning didn't work, outside temp, 90*+, inside the cockpit 95*+ Everything worked ok on the first two approaches, I didnt know how he hate them up, but they worked autopilot/flight director was flawless, all modes, except go around. on the 3rd approach we lost the flight director and had an issue with the XM radio.
Figured out the air issue was a sticky solenoid, tap, tap, fixed.
XM issue was a headset issue, not set to stereo. Flight Director is going to have to wait until Monday.
Test flight #2, ILS and GPS approaches using number 2 nav as nav source, perfect, just no flight director.
Test flight #3 was from FFC to Destin, 50 minutes of me alone playing with buttons, and I figured out the flight director doesn't work in Synthetic vision mode!!
So other than a air pressure gauge that is not working, everything seems to be good, the pilot needs a little work before I shoot a real approach in weather.

 

[acluffpoa]

What is your first impression of the G500?

 

[N747JB]

What is your first impression of the G500?

I had an Aspen before, while this is a lot different, it's similar enough that I felt OK with it, the 650/750 on the other hand are much different than the 530 I'm used to. The remote audio panel and transponders are cool, but they will take a little practice as well. Overall, I am thrilled with the boxes and the way they work together, I'm looking forward to catching up with the panel on the next couple flights.
I'm glad I did it, so far.

 

[olasek]

and I figured out the flight director doesn't work in Synthetic vision mode!!

Strange why it would not. In G1000 (almost positive) it does. Do you get FPV (Flight Path Vector) with synthetic mode? Nice images however, congrats!

 

[N747JB]

Strange why it would not. In G1000 (almost positive) it does. Do you get FPV (Flight Path Vector) with synthetic mode? Nice images however, congrats!

If you mean the little green circle looking thingy, yes.

 

[N801BH]

Is the right engine a little thirstier then the left one ???

 

[N747JB]

Is the right engine a little thirstier then the left one ???

Yes, it appears about 10 lbs per hour more, not sure what, if anything to do about it. Even Charlene had one engine burn 1 1/2 gallons more per hour.

 

[wabower]

You can recalibrate the system and dink around until they are ~exactly the same if you want to spend the time and money to chase it. Or you can just note that one runs a little higher than the other, check at refill to see if it's an indication error or if one actually burns a bit more than the other and and live with it. Whatever blows your dress. Tuning PT6-A power/fuel systems is part art and part science.

I bought a B-200 for the brush company in 1997 that had previously been owned by Conoco. During the test flight we noticed that one side ran a few degrees cooler than the other. The prior trip and trend sheets were in the MX file, so we checked to see when the split was first noticed. The splits had been constant since an overhaul by Dallas Airmotive, so we opted to leave well enough alone.

Yes, it appears about 10 lbs per hour more, not sure what, if anything to do about it. Even Charlene had one engine burn 1 1/2 gallons more per hour.

 

[N801BH]

Yes, it appears about 10 lbs per hour more, not sure what, if anything to do about it. Even Charlene had one engine burn 1 1/2 gallons more per hour.

To be fair......... I cannot see the right engine torque meter and it is possible it is just slightly higher and that would explain the difference too...

 

[Ted]

Your PT-6s are way more efficient than the ones in the Cheyenne I used to fly. At 16k we'd be seeing more like 275-300 pph for those settings.

 

[olasek]

John - how much lighter is your Conquest after the retrofit?
Someone asks on another (foreign) forum...yes, your Conquest is getting an international exposure

 

[N747JB]

John - how much lighter is your Conquest after the retrofit?
Someone asks on another (foreign) forum...yes, your Conquest is getting an international exposure

Honestly, I didn't look at the weight and balance before I left yesterday, I was overwhelmed with buttons and dials and blinky lights!
I was flying solo, so I figured it wasn't an issue.
I can tell you my bank account is significantly lighter!