No, $60k LSAs aren't selling because they're worth $30k.
How can it be fixed...
- Thread starter mchesney
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No, $60k LSAs aren't selling because they're worth $30k.
Nice planes aren't selling unless you give them away.
Alexb2000
En-Route
What makes an airplane a "good" deal?
An older but highly desired airplane that was treated exceptionally well the last 30 years by an owner who loved it and had the money to keep it well maintained and hangared. The airplane was never damaged, no corrosion, never in the sun, just kept as it was from the factory.
Then the owner loses his medical and sells it cheap for $50K because it is original and dated.
Someone with a lot of money buys it that just loves that model. That person spends 2 years and $200K upgrading every little thing to modern standards. Top quality fresh engine and prop, glass panel, autopilot, show quality paint and interior, etc. It becomes a restoration of love with the plan never to sell it.
That person passes away unexpectedly in a non-aviation accident and the unknowing estate sells the airplane for the book value of $80K.
That's what EVERYONE shopping for an airplane is looking for and expecting. That's why there just are not enough "good" deals to go around.
An older but highly desired airplane that was treated exceptionally well the last 30 years by an owner who loved it and had the money to keep it well maintained and hangared. The airplane was never damaged, no corrosion, never in the sun, just kept as it was from the factory.
Then the owner loses his medical and sells it cheap for $50K because it is original and dated.
Someone with a lot of money buys it that just loves that model. That person spends 2 years and $200K upgrading every little thing to modern standards. Top quality fresh engine and prop, glass panel, autopilot, show quality paint and interior, etc. It becomes a restoration of love with the plan never to sell it.
That person passes away unexpectedly in a non-aviation accident and the unknowing estate sells the airplane for the book value of $80K.
That's what EVERYONE shopping for an airplane is looking for and expecting. That's why there just are not enough "good" deals to go around.
poadeleted21
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One mans market price is another mans give away. Like I said, if not selling they're overpriced. IMHO market price is what you can sell it for in 90 days. Some folks want to hold out for the right buyer and don't have to sell and that's fine, but the plane is still over priced, the proof is that it didn't sell in 90 days. We're sitting on a lot of real estate right now too that would otherwise be for sale, but we won't get what we want out of it, so there's no reason to waste time putting it on the market and we don't have to sell. There are a lot of people upside down in cars, homes, boats etc... right now too, markets fluctuate.
supernovae
Line Up and Wait
I wouldn't complain if they were listed at 30k, but even a 60k lsa far outshines the operating costs of a 60k 172..
Outside of lsa, what else can be done to lower costs? If not lower, than better control them?
If you're stuck in club route, I'd argue lsa is cheaper and better with most club restrictions being rather.. restrictive. If you're single owner, how much flying do you actually do where you need that aircraft? Wouldn't an lsa scratch the pattern and put around itch?
Obviously if you have an aircraft for business use, that changes things drastically.. or if your looking for an asset with tax advantages, that too may make flying more affordable.. but what about those working class who want to fly? Can they even build an experimental for 60k these days that competes with even the mentioned aircraft?
Alexb2000
En-Route
172's hold their value and can be sold so easily because they have a business use, that being the most desirable trainer out there. ANY 172 priced right and in decent shape will sell, always. LSA's......????
supernovae
Line Up and Wait
Lots of clubs are training in LSA's these days.. (weather permitting..) I'm hearing lots of Flight Designs buzzing around
A quick look at TAP and the LSA's seem to be holding value and I haven't heard of anything totally crashing out price wise nor quality wise..
also, I have yet to see a 172 hold price.. Brand new they're pushing 300k.. 1-2 years old.. 200k.. 10 years.. 125-150k. Maybe the old high time 30+ year olds are holding fair at 40-60k
Alexb2000
En-Route
Lots of clubs are training in LSA's these days.. (weather permitting..) I'm hearing lots of Flight Designs buzzing around
A quick look at TAP and the LSA's seem to be holding value and I haven't heard of anything totally crashing out price wise nor quality wise..
also, I have yet to see a 172 hold price.. Brand new they're pushing 300k.. 1-2 years old.. 200k.. 10 years.. 125-150k. Maybe the old high time 30+ year olds are holding fair at 40-60k
New 172's list for $289K, with a G1000 GFC700, etc. They can take someone from 0 to CFII with only a few hours required in some retract. They can be flown and night and IFR. They can actually hold two real adult men side by side.
Here is a 2008 172 with 2270 TT. It was the first year of the GFC 700 for as close to new comparison as possible. They are asking $235K. That airplane sold new for ~$255K. So they lost $20K in value over 5 years and ~2300 hours.
http://www.controller.com/listingsd...WK-SP/2008-CESSNA-172S-SKYHAWK-SP/1267919.htm
I don't see how you can say they are not holding their value.
supernovae
Line Up and Wait
That controller link is only holding value because they dumped 50k into it for a fresh engine and annual.
look people, i'm not saying the 172 isn't worth its weight or its price, obviously people are buying them and flying them - they have a mission.
I think some of us would just like to see more options available, more competition and an equilibrium in pricing.
If LSA sucks ass, so be it.. are you all just content with the way things are? airports closing, manufacturers shutting down/offshoring, annuals getting pricier, parts getting rarer, overhauls getting costlier, fewer students flying.. fuel prices increasing.
If you ask me, i think the majority of GA would be happy with an affordable LSA type aircraft because the brutal truth of aviation today is that the freedom of flying is often a pipe dream with brutal costs.
obviously if you have a mission and the means to do more, LSA wont' fulfill that.. but it doesn't mean LSA doesn't have its own purpose and its own missions.
and to be completely honest.. 200k for a 172 makes me cringe
ClimbnSink
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LSA would work for most GA pilots flying needs, but not for their ego needs. That is the rub.
Alexb2000
En-Route
There is a really simple reason why LSA will never be mainstream. For most of us they have no use other than flying around in day VFR conditions, sightseeing, or pattern work, close to your home field. I'm not putting that down, but VERY few people want to spend $100K plus all the fixed expenses to do that. Airplanes will never be cost competitive, but having some aspect of utility is still a requirement. Being able to take your family somewhere too far to drive, or inspect a pipeline, or train students, or haul something, or spray a field, is what gives them value to most pilots.
I am actually content with the way things are. Flying never was cheap and never will be. If paying $6K for a PPL is disagreeable, then that is a sign you shouldn't do it. For example a Beechraft Staggerwing in 1933 was $17K, today that equates to $300K. Look at the capabilities and features of an aircraft today vs. then.
The reason airports are in decline, flying is reduced, etc. is simple. We enjoyed a period of unequaled prosperity and buying power for several decades. That meant people had a lot of disposable income for things like flying. Like water we have broken the economic dam and are finding a common level with the rest of the world. That is a world where very few people can afford to fly.
If you doubt me, go to one of your cycling forums and say you are buying a new $20K road bike. Everyone will think you're some kind of super crazy rich guy. Here that's what is cost you to have a GPS installed.
supernovae;1072830[B said:
Then they go and buy a $20k 172 and spend even more, pilots are generally cheap and stupid.
Outside of LSA you can go experimental, but that requires skill and knowledge outside the prevue of the typical pilot.
supernovae
Line Up and Wait
So you're essentially agreeing non business use of aviation is moot?
PPL is actually getting up to 10k + these days. 9 years ago I was paying 57/hour wet for a 152 and 30/hr for CFI part 141. Today i pay 100 wet for traumahawk and 40/hr CFI part 61.. that's a lot more than inflation costs there.
i don't disagree with the capabilities and performance of aircraft improving at all. Hell, Flight Design has a nice cruise, comfy cabin, decent TBO and excellent instruments for its price and even at a higher entry cost the hourly costs balance out in no time!
Post WWII aviation was they hayday, lots of pilots coming back and lots of companies building aircraft those pilots could actually afford. Is there a reason we couldn't spawn something new like that?
People still have a lot of disposable income.. look at everyone with their smart phones, smart cars, tablets, 60" tvs, motorcycles and fancy houses. Economic downturn has hurt, but at the same time, why is it that if other markets see demand, businesses rush in to fill it but with aviation you can have LONG waiting lists for hangers, fields closing with 80-100 planes parked there now needing a new home. Is it just ok as long as it isn't your field?
20k on bike s bit on the pricey side for someone just riding casual but for people competing in triathlons or road racing - 8-10k in a bike and 1-4k in gear / add-ons isn't out of the question. The resell value of that bike though is nice, the product support and warranty support is usually great and the cost per hour is cheaper than all hell
I spent about 3k on my bike and i broke even the first year by choosing to ride to work as well.
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supernovae
Line Up and Wait
Is this really the mantra of aviation?
is this really true? isn't experimental one of the growth markets besides light jet?
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supernovae
Line Up and Wait
As a brain storm, what do you think is the most capable, affordable and easiest to maintain and easiest on the wallet certified aircraft is - something with 4 seats and half-decent ground speed - to fit the general dream of being able to fly somewhere.
Would this be that typical 172 on Cessna side and maybe a Cherokee 180 on piper for certified aircraft? both of which have a questionable 4 person load.. maybe a Cherokee 6 and a 182 then if you're looking at family missions? you know, the general dream of being a pilot that doesn't fly for his day job
Would this be that typical 172 on Cessna side and maybe a Cherokee 180 on piper for certified aircraft? both of which have a questionable 4 person load.. maybe a Cherokee 6 and a 182 then if you're looking at family missions? you know, the general dream of being a pilot that doesn't fly for his day job
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Alexb2000
En-Route
For the most part, yes, I am agreeing. There will also be some semi-business use as in a PPL flying to see clients, or taking the family on vacation vs. flying commercial or driving. The plane in every garage concept is dead IMO. The aircraft values bear this out. Look at the value of a Super Cub, one reason, possible business use.
9 years 30 to 40 dollars and hour or what ~3% a year. Seems like a pretty fair deal.
Most of cost of wet renting is an increase in fuel cost.
Aviation after WWII was the fascination of the public, eventually leading to the space race. People willingly paid for and drank Tang because the Astronauts did. We were clearly obsessed.
That time is passed. We could give free airplane rides, free PPL training, etc. and most kids would rather sit at home playing video games.
I didn't say our economy was equal to Myanmar. How much time do you spend in a year watching TV, or using your smart phone, or living in your house vs. flying?
Of course I don't want to see any field close. I don't want to see mom and pop stores run out by the big boxes. I don't want a world where teenagers have no earthly idea how to start a lawnmower. That's just the way it is, things change.
20k on bike s bit on the pricey side for someone just riding casual but for people competing in triathlons or road racing - 8-10k in a bike and 1-4k in gear / add-ons isn't out of the question. The resell value of that bike though is nice, the product support and warranty support is usually great and the cost per hour is cheaper than all hell
Plus you get the benefit of exercise, so it provides some utility without a business motive, although not cost effective. That's my original point.
EdFred
Taxi to Parking
Asked to 60 different people you'll get 60 different answers since "easiest" and "half-decent" are subjective terms.
DavidWhite
Final Approach
I don't understand why they buy a fast looking bird for 100k when you can get a real fast bird (Bonanza, Mooney, Commanche) for half the cost, or to buy a particularly extreme example for 100k an have the nicest one around.
Tony_Scarpelli
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Yeah, I've been looking for that deal for 9 years, but I have owned 2 airplanes and flown over 1000 hrs while I am waiting. I do not recommend you wait for that deal for your first plane.
Flying today is no different than 50 years ago, so buy a 50 year old plane on the money and just enjoy flying. If you want to play video games with fancy electronics than go to the video store. If the only way you can enjoy flying is behind a glass panel and you are not a millionaire with deep aviation pockets then its sort of like a fat guy who wants to marry Holly Barry. You can want all you want but you better get past that dream and just live a real life.
Tony_Scarpelli
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I agree with Rusty and the airplanes that sell without ever being advertised are what I call buying a plane for the money.
supernovae
Line Up and Wait
How many real missions do you have on the Mooney? Are you really using all that beautiful hardware or are you punching holes in the sky keeping current?
supernovae
Line Up and Wait
True, the choice of plane is subjective, but the goal is objective - 4 person plane, affordable for an average income family with the ability to complete "vacation missions" of fuel + luggage.
I'm mostly asking these questions because i'm trying to figure out the reality of flying from those who have experienced it. I'm a newb at 36 year old.. My father's reality is gliders, maybe that may be mine too. Or LSA. Yet we both have dreams of that Mooney, flying up to New Mexico in a few hours on our own time and dime.
One mission i have in mind is to be able to fly from GTU to Houston Soaring club on a nice weekend morning to go up for glider rides with my father and land on his grass strips. To me, this is a "mild may happen reality" flight - its something LSA could achieve - without bringing my family with me at all - but it is expensive overall to just facing the road or hoping they finish the toll road soon enough but it will keep me flying at an hourly cost that won't hurt bad at all.
My dream missions are a Mooney type aircraft, flying with currency and proficiency in mind, but being able to hop up to dallas to visit friends, fly to Louisiana to go fishing, hop over to new mexico to camp in the mountains so on and so forth but the cost of the plane AND the hourly costs combined make that, expensive.. possible.. maybe, but very expensive. If my stocks do well and my bonuses do well, i could absorb a decent Mooney paid in full and the full mission of a family of four to go to new mexico is very affordable at the hourly rate - even compared to commercial air but its an expensive proposition to have for sole ownership, doing maintenance and proficiency flying and staying up on stick and rudder skills. Yet, if i club or rent that said Mooney those vacation trips are greatly reduced to day trips.
yet, i know older people who did these missions in the 60s and 70's on a fraction of the income and savings i have... did they just make it look easier than it really was?
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Tony_Scarpelli
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True a common trainer like 172 or Cherokee or even Muskiteer or Sport will all be easy to find and easy to sell. Everything else cuts the amount of potential buyers from your pool of buyers.
I was very lucky in that I selected 172/Cherokee early on, and then searched the local 20 airports within 50 miles so I did not have the huge travel costs searching for an airplane. The months it took me to buy a plane were more about my self education about airplanes than the actual search. I learned early on asking prices in TAP bared no resemblance to purchase prices so I bargained hard. Popped alot of bubbles of guys who had their heads in the skies.
I bought a Cherokee $20k, flew it about 8 years put 1100 hrs on it and sold it for $15k. I never advertised it, It sold the week I decided to sell it. I asked $15k and I sold it for $15k 8800TAF; 3200TTSMOH.... It came with a fresh seller paid annual and Anywhere map GPS setup, service manuals and parts manuals from Piper a few tools and ods and ends in the hangar. When I got in there was a 1-2 year wait for the Hangar so I felt part of the airplane price was to get the hangar at the airport nearest my home.
I feel that I had the privilege owning such a fine plane and getting so much value out of it. I might have been able to get $17k out of it if I wanted to try and sell it for 2 years and talk to a few dozen tire kickers but I also figured it was costing me $120 per month and I didn't want to have to do another annual just because i wanted to maximize the sale price for my ego. I think holding on to pipe dreams when selling an aircraft is what dooms many sellers. Everyone seems to be waiting for that guy that knows less then they do about aircraft values. Plus owners always over estimate the value of their airplanes.
Back to the point. Stick to something with broad appeal and you won't have to spend a bunch of money flying across the country to find one or spend a year or two to sell it.
supernovae
Line Up and Wait
This is great stuff to hear! thanks!
Tony_Scarpelli
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Hey! I resemble that remark. I think I did very well financially with my Cherokee. But I didn't spend even more. I kept it exactly as I bought it with a few minor things I did over time like upgrade the interior seats and rebuild the accessories.
LSA there wouldn't have been room for gas and the instructor. Experimental-I would have killed myself no doubt, this is beyond my abilities.
DavidWhite
Final Approach
No real missions, other than a run to KC for BBQ. Lots of lunch runs/beach runs, and it's a chick magnet.
EdFred
Taxi to Parking
That's still going to vary. Are your vacations going to be 300 miles away or 800 miles away? Are the 4 people midgets or are they 200lbs for the guys and 150lbs for the women? Are you taking people that "need" 75 pounds of luggage each for a 2 day trip?
supernovae
Line Up and Wait
Chick magnet is the best mission ever
BTW, how long does it take you to get to South Padres, i'm guessing it would be Brownsville from San Marcos?
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DavidWhite
Final Approach
Chick magnet is the best mission ever
BTW, how long does it take you to get to South Padres, i'm guessing it would be Brownsville from San Marcos?
I usually do Rockport or Port Aransas because the airport is actually right on the beach. Rockport is better for food, Port A is better for beach. It's about 40-45 minutes.
Here's Wednesdays vict......err passenger.
Tony_Scarpelli
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As a brain storm, what do you think is the most capable, affordable and easiest to maintain and easiest on the wallet certified aircraft is - something with 4 seats and half-decent ground speed - to fit the general dream of being able to fly somewhere.
Would this be that typical 172 on Cessna side and maybe a Cherokee 180 on piper for certified aircraft? both of which have a questionable 4 person load.. maybe a Cherokee 6 and a 182 then if you're looking at family missions? you know, the general dream of being a pilot that doesn't fly for his day job
Even on my boats space and weight are limited so its not surprise that you are going to have sit tightly in an aircraft. but to answer your question:
A stinson 108 is a decent priced four seat aircraft tail dragger and not many around but when I last looked a dozen years ago they coudl be had hellishly cheap like $14k, engines were cheap to rebuild but required looking to find the parts.
Easiest practical plane to find and buy/sell when you want and need too is the Cherokee 140 (about $3-5k cheaper than same year 172). 933 useful load, 115 mph, 8gph, mogas stc available, annual maintenance runs between $600-1200 per year, can be put on tie down with a cover and frequent flying keeps it healthy. Can be leased back if you need to do that to own an airplane. Every mechanic can work on them and you can find used parts at the airplane salvage if you bend it up. The Lycoming 320 engine is bullet proof and will run and run and run like the energizer bunny.
Next would be the 172 with with a lycombing engine same reasons
Next would have more room, sexier, cost more is a Cardinal 177.
Grummans are pretty good planes Traveler;Chetah; Tigar.
If you want complex than its hard to beat the Arrow or 177 RG. For leaseback I would prefer the indestructible Arrow but for personal family use I would prefer the 177 RG.
If you are a mechanic a Comanche 180 hp (complex) can be bought for less than $30k and gives you great speed performance for a 180hp. The maintenance would be higher than the Arrow and at least double Cherokee.
IMO insurance is the same related to hull value once you have a bit of time in the aircraft.
How to buy an airplane: IMO you automatically double or triple your costs when you insist on IFR GPS, Engine analyzer, HSI and auto pilot. That is like saying I can only drive to work in a BMW. Yes maybe you can but if you can't afford it, do you really want to walk?
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supernovae
Line Up and Wait
2 adults, 2 kids.. did a flight aware plan from GTU to ABQ and a Mooney M20j at 6k feet says 3:40 minutes at 300/dollars fuel. Plan is a week long vacation.. if my only goal was day trips im under the impression a club craft would be soundest solution.
DavidWhite
Final Approach
You won't get into ABQ at 6k. Try 10 or 11k, the elevation is like 5k. Up high I plan for 10gph and 160KTAS - I kicked it into foreflight and it says (with no wind of course) it would be 3 hours 15 minutes and I'd burn about 30 gallons., or $180 in fuel.
supernovae
Line Up and Wait
Thanks for the great response again. I'm not looking or IFR and all the gadgets.. i can satisfy some of the gadget envy with a tablet / phone these days or portable gps unit.
The school i'm at has all pipers, i'll probably look into arrow time here before long to see how that works out.
supernovae
Line Up and Wait
true.. 6k wouldn't avoid that terrain.
Well, if i'm ever down in San Marcos i'll have to swing by and check out your plane. Isn't that the airport with that amazing flight training FBO with the simulators? mind is drawing a blank..
DavidWhite
Final Approach
Yep that's the place - Redbird Skyport. If I ever actually get my CFI I'll start teaching there. I do come up to GTU fairly often, I am with the Devil Dog squadron out of Beths hangar.
supernovae
Line Up and Wait
Nice! Beth et all is where I Train.. I drool over that B25 every day i'm out trying to warm up the Traumahawk hehe
DavidWhite
Final Approach
It's a nice operation up there. Good folks, too.
EdFred
Taxi to Parking
No wind? In west Texas? Bwhahahaha.
Figure a 30kt headwind heading to ABQ. That 120 kt plane that was going to take 4:20 is now going to take 5:45 and that doesn't include stopping for fuel. Even that 150kt plane is going to take 4:20 in that headwind. If you are doing 500 mile trips, you want nothing less than a 150kt bird. Now, finding a 150kt bird that is going to grow with your family for a week...you're narrowing it down quite a bit. Like down to a handful of planes, and a Mooney probably isn't going to be one of them.
Figure a 30kt headwind heading to ABQ. That 120 kt plane that was going to take 4:20 is now going to take 5:45 and that doesn't include stopping for fuel. Even that 150kt plane is going to take 4:20 in that headwind. If you are doing 500 mile trips, you want nothing less than a 150kt bird. Now, finding a 150kt bird that is going to grow with your family for a week...you're narrowing it down quite a bit. Like down to a handful of planes, and a Mooney probably isn't going to be one of them.
DavidWhite
Final Approach
It depends on the time of year. I went through ABQ a few times last summer in my 172 and never had winds more than 15 knots either way.
DavidWhite
Final Approach
Even right now at 12k with the current winds it will only take 3:40. A 16 knot headwind it says.