Zenith down at T67 (Fort Worth, TX)

Discussion in 'Home Builders and Sport Pilots' started by Ravioli, Apr 6, 2019.

  1. Ravioli

    Ravioli Final Approach

    Joined:
    Dec 1, 2014
    Messages:
    6,482
    Location:
    Fort Worth
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Pasta Man
    This occurred Thursday evening. This picture is after it was moved from the accident scene. The hangars were never in danger. The actual accident scene was LEFT of the runway, approximately mid-field. [Edited: The left wing had the tree damage, so he would have been landing to the North]

    For those of you on Farcebook there is discussion of this in the North Texas Aviator's group.

    I don't think it will buff right out.
    zenith.jpg
     
    Last edited: Apr 6, 2019
  2. Ryanb

    Ryanb Final Approach PoA Supporter

    Joined:
    Jul 21, 2010
    Messages:
    9,306
    Location:
    Tennessee
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Ryan
    Pilot ok?
     
    bflynn likes this.
  3. Ravioli

    Ravioli Final Approach

    Joined:
    Dec 1, 2014
    Messages:
    6,482
    Location:
    Fort Worth
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Pasta Man
    @Ryanb - It was 3 up, no injuries reported.
     
    bflynn and Ryanb like this.
  4. Kenny Phillips

    Kenny Phillips Pattern Altitude

    Joined:
    Jul 29, 2018
    Messages:
    1,962
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Kenny Phillips
    It looks like he STOLd. (I only make the bad pun 'cuz no injuries reported.)
     
    bflynn and overdrive148 like this.
  5. SkyDog58

    SkyDog58 Touchdown! Greaser! PoA Supporter

    Joined:
    Jun 11, 2015
    Messages:
    12,759
    Location:
    My own special place.
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Canis Non Grata
    At the very least he was SOL.
     
    Kenny Phillips likes this.
  6. wanttaja

    wanttaja En-Route

    Joined:
    Jun 7, 2008
    Messages:
    2,742
    Location:
    Seattle
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Ron Wanttaja
    [EDIT: I Erroneously assumed it was a CH-701]

    The CH-701 does seem to have a greater percentage of accidents related to airspeed control. Part of it, I think, is that it's appealing as an entry-level airplane for less-experienced pilots. CH-701 pilots involved in accidents generally have must less flight experience (~1000 hours median for all homebuilts, about 500 hours for CH-701 pilots).

    The CH-701's accident rate is a bit higher than average, but it's in-family with airplanes of similar configuration and mission (e.g., RANS, Avid, Kitfox, etc.). Fatality rate (percentage of accidents that are fatal) is roughly the same, as well, and this class of airplane has a fairly low rate.

    Ron Wanttaja
     
    Last edited: Apr 6, 2019
  7. Ravioli

    Ravioli Final Approach

    Joined:
    Dec 1, 2014
    Messages:
    6,482
    Location:
    Fort Worth
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Pasta Man
    Not disputing your statement, but this was a CH-801. Probably doesn't change the validity of your comments. Only adding for accuracy.
     
  8. wanttaja

    wanttaja En-Route

    Joined:
    Jun 7, 2008
    Messages:
    2,742
    Location:
    Seattle
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Ron Wanttaja
    Thanks, my bad. Should have cued in on the "3 persons onboard."

    Few CH-801 accidents in my database (nine), so reliable information can't really be extracted. Of the nine accidents, six of the pilots had over 2,000 hours. One had over 7,000. Only one of the nine referenced speed control, this was an attempted short-field landing (CEN17LA037).

    Ron Wanttaja
     
  9. SkyDog58

    SkyDog58 Touchdown! Greaser! PoA Supporter

    Joined:
    Jun 11, 2015
    Messages:
    12,759
    Location:
    My own special place.
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Canis Non Grata
    Ron is definitely the go to on these sort of stats.
     
    Ravioli likes this.
  10. Kenny Phillips

    Kenny Phillips Pattern Altitude

    Joined:
    Jul 29, 2018
    Messages:
    1,962
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Kenny Phillips
    The newer CH-750 Super Duty (my next project, most likely!) has three seats, as well.
     
  11. wanttaja

    wanttaja En-Route

    Joined:
    Jun 7, 2008
    Messages:
    2,742
    Location:
    Seattle
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Ron Wanttaja
    One of my EAA chapter presidents had a Cessna 310. If I hear him on the radio at my uncontrolled field, I refer to his plane as "the crowd killer." : -)

    Ron Wanttaja
     
    Kenny Phillips likes this.
  12. Larry Korona

    Larry Korona Filing Flight Plan

    Joined:
    Aug 10, 2017
    Messages:
    17
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Larry
    Curious as to your thoughts about the safety record for the CH750 Cruzer. How does it compare to similar airframes?
     
  13. German guy

    German guy Cleared for Takeoff

    Joined:
    Dec 7, 2009
    Messages:
    1,035
    Location:
    Novi, MI
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Oliver
    We’re building a CruZer. It’s a very docile plane, I haven’t heard anything negative about its flying characteristics. The few accidents that have happened were all caused either by significant pilot error or engine failure due to various reasons, caused by the builder.

    If you’re looking for a used CruZer I’d pay particular attention to build quality and details like the fuel system, the electrical system and the engine installation. Compared to the RV crowd, the average Zenith builder seems to pay less attention to detail. That’s at least the impression I got from looking at other Zeniths.
     
  14. Larry Korona

    Larry Korona Filing Flight Plan

    Joined:
    Aug 10, 2017
    Messages:
    17
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Larry
    Thanks!

    Actually I’m considering building one. Last year at Oshkosh, my teenage daughter and I started looking at the home builts after each of us pulling a rivet on the One Week Wonder. Currently own a C172, and like high wings.
     
  15. German guy

    German guy Cleared for Takeoff

    Joined:
    Dec 7, 2009
    Messages:
    1,035
    Location:
    Novi, MI
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Oliver
    We live close to Detroit, you’re welcome to stop by if you happen to be in our area.
     
  16. wanttaja

    wanttaja En-Route

    Joined:
    Jun 7, 2008
    Messages:
    2,742
    Location:
    Seattle
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Ron Wanttaja
    Not really enough examples for a definite answer. There are 22 CH-750 accidents in my 1998-2017 database. Six of them were builder error, which is a bit higher than normal, but the sample size is way lower than I like to use. Two of them were fuel-system related, two were related to prop attachment. Relatively high fleet accident rate (average number of accidents per year), but, again, the sample size is small. Only one of the 22 accidents was fatal, which gives the CH-750 a one of the best scores, there (lowest of the 35 types that I keep detailed data on).

    Roughly the same number of accidents for Murphy Rebels (20), more cases of pilot miscontrol, fewer builder error (3). Rebel also had only one fatality.

    Ron Wanttaja
     
    German guy likes this.
  17. bflynn

    bflynn En-Route

    Joined:
    Apr 24, 2012
    Messages:
    4,852
    Location:
    Fuquay Varina, NC
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Brian Flynn
    But low numbers, so the chances of them being skewed are higher. I've looked extensively at the 750 and the super-stol as build projects and I know of no reason they should have a higher accident rate, other than the fact that they are "entry level" builds. I have heard of one guy who built a 750 in 3 months, from beginning to taxi. Because it uses all blind rivets, the assembly phase is very fast.
     
  18. Larry Korona

    Larry Korona Filing Flight Plan

    Joined:
    Aug 10, 2017
    Messages:
    17
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Larry
    I’m in Tulsa Oklahoma, so it’s a bit out of the way unfortunately.
     
  19. wanttaja

    wanttaja En-Route

    Joined:
    Jun 7, 2008
    Messages:
    2,742
    Location:
    Seattle
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Ron Wanttaja
    My usual threshold for comparing accident statistics is at least 50 accidents in my 20-year database; that makes each accident equal to at least 2% of the total. This actually leaves out many well-known types...RV-3s, 9s, 10s, and 12s, all the RANS, Sonexes, T-18s, etc.

    Another way to select is by fleet size, not number of accidents. The problem there is that most homebuilts have fewer aircraft now than ten years ago.,

    Ron Wanttaja
     
  20. German guy

    German guy Cleared for Takeoff

    Joined:
    Dec 7, 2009
    Messages:
    1,035
    Location:
    Novi, MI
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Oliver
    The 750 can certainly be built very fast – if you’re willing to slap it together. Frankly, this is exactly what quite a few Zeniths look like

    If you want to build a nice 750, it will realistically take at least as long as building a Kitfox or a RANS S-20/21. Zenith also leaves many details up to the builder, whereas the Kitfox and RANS kits are much more refined, what is overall a huge time saver, if the goal is to end up with a nice plane.


    Unless we are occupied with other stuff, my wife and I are working on it every evening and weekend. Still, we are already two years into the build, I think it will take us at least another year to get it done.

    We also know several other 750 builders: Looking at their progress as well as ours, I would think that one needs to plan at a minimum to spend between 1,500 and 2,000 hours to build a flying Zenith 750. We’ll probably end up closer to 2,500 – 3,000 hours, but this includes paint. The 500 hours they mention on their website might be true for the basic airframe, without engine, paint, avionics, only minimal deburring and if the builder doesn’t care too much about holes that don’t line up correctly and simply runs a drill through them.


    To avoid disappointment, my recommendation is therefore to plan with around 2,500 hours and to take it as a pleasant surprise if the plane is finished earlier.


    Quite a few builders are tracking their hours on Kitlog Pro, this gives a good idea of how much time they are actually putting into their build: http://www.mykitlog.com/search.php?...0&city=&state=&country=&sortby=hours&offset=0
     
  21. bflynn

    bflynn En-Route

    Joined:
    Apr 24, 2012
    Messages:
    4,852
    Location:
    Fuquay Varina, NC
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Brian Flynn
    I don't have a time schedule for a build - it will take what it takes. It's just noting that they can be built much more quickly than say an RV-9.

    I suspect the builders of zeniths are less experienced and therefore are more prone to do something wrong.