Yup. It's a logging question

luvflyin

luvflyin

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Went up with a safety pilot the other day but the weather said no to any IFR work because neither of us was IFR current. So we just went around the patch 6 times and got us both current to carry passengers. I already was, so it was just moving the date up for me. She wasn't so it was a reset for her. I'm assuming I would log the entire time as PIC even though I was only flying half the time and she would log her time at the controls as PIC.
 
As I understand it you can not log the time she was PIC as there was no requirement for a second pilot.

ETA: You could still BE the PIC for the flight she could still LOG PIC for her time as sole manipulator.

Edited again: What two people do in the privacy of their own log books is up to them. I don't judge. :)
 
luvflyin said:
I'm assuming I would log the entire time as PIC even though I was only flying half the time and she would log her time at the controls as PIC.
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Why do you assume that?
 
dmspilot said:
Why do you assume that?
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Because she couldn't be the PIC because she was not current to have passengers. Therefore I was PIC for the entire flight. She of course could 'Log' PIC when she was the sole manipulator. So my logic was that because I had to be the PIC the entire time, I would 'Log' it all, even when I wasn't the sole manipulator.
 
luvflyin said:
Because she couldn't be the PIC because she was not current to have passengers. Therefore I was PIC for the entire flight. She of course could 'Log' PIC when she was the sole manipulator. So my logic was that because I had to be the PIC the entire time, I would 'Log' it all, even when I wasn't the sole manipulator.
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I still don't think you can log it.

This is a lot like the scenario where you are IFR current and file but the other, non-IFR current pilot actually does the flying in real IMC (with no hood). In that case, despite the fact that you are taking responsibility as PIC for the flight on your IFR ticket, you still can't log it while the other person is flying because no second pilot is required.
 
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You can BE PIC and not LOG PIC. You can LOG PIC and not be PIC.

Again no expert but as far as I know you don't need to BE PIC to LOG your landings for currency.

So in this case she can LOG PIC because she was sole manipulator and log the landings. She couldn't BE PIC until she got the third landing in thus the need for you to BE PIC for the flight.

If I am wrong someone tell me.

A friend who used to be a CFI took me for a ride in his Arrow a couple weeks ago I sat left seat (not that it matters). At the beginning of the flight he said, "I am PIC." I agreed. I flew from start up to shut down except for about 2 minutes when I asked him to take it for a second while I was setting up navigation on my phone. I logged the sole manipulator time as PIC even though was not acting as the PIC he was (I assume for insurance reasons).

I honestly have no idea if or how he logged it and really don't care that is his issue. I was sole manipulator I can log it so I did. For years I never logged this stuff although admittedly a lot of it was always 10 minutes here or an 1/2 hour there but I kick myself now for not logging some of it as I would have a few more aircraft types in my log.

I do keep a separate "unofficial log" for when I fly things I couldn't log. Like a twin Aztec and C47. Some stuff in there I probably could have logged.
 
61.51 doesn’t provide an allowance for the acting PIC to log PIC when not sole manipulator if more than one crewmember is not required.
 
luvflyin said:
Because she couldn't be the PIC because she was not current to have passengers. Therefore I was PIC for the entire flight. She of course could 'Log' PIC when she was the sole manipulator. So my logic was that because I had to be the PIC the entire time, I would 'Log' it all, even when I wasn't the sole manipulator.
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No, unless you were acting as a safety pilot, you cannot log the time she was sole manipulator of the controls.

We talks a lot in terms of "you don't have to be acting as PIC to log PIC" a lot, but the separation of "acting" and "logging" works both ways. Just as there are times you can log PIC without acing as PIC, there are times you can act PIC without being authorized to log it. Basically, unless you can find a "box" in which you fit in 61.51(e), you cannot log PIC time.

There is no "log PIC an anytime acting as PIC" rule. There are rules, such as 61.51(e)(iii) which authorizes logging PIC when acting as PIC when "more than one pilot is required under the type certification of the aircraft or the regulations under which the flight is conducted." That's the one which authorizes a safety pilot who is acting as PIC to log PIC time. You won't find one to fit your situation.
 
Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe said:
What does acting as PIC have to do with logging PIC?
Logging is for control manipulating, not I'm in charging.
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Not completely. Safety pilot acting as PIC and the non-flying captain of a flight in an airplane which is certified to require two pilots are two examples of "in charge but not flying" logging, but there is a specific 61.51 provision which authorizes it.
 
midlifeflyer said:
No, unless you were acting as a safety pilot, you cannot log the time she was sole manipulator of the controls.

We talks a lot in terms of "you don't have to be acting as PIC to log PIC" a lot, but the separation of "acting" and "logging" works both ways. Just as there are times you can log PIC without acing as PIC, there are times you can act PIC without being authorized to log it. Basically, unless you can find a "box" in which you fit in 61.51(e), you cannot log PIC time.

There is no "log PIC an anytime acting as PIC" rule. There are rules, such as 61.51(e)(iii) which authorizes logging PIC when acting as PIC when "more than one pilot is required under the type certification of the aircraft or the regulations under which the flight is conducted." That's the one which authorizes a safety pilot who is acting as PIC to log PIC time. You won't find one to fit your situation.
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..."but the separation of "acting" and "logging" works both ways."...

That's what I was wondering about and why I was confused at first. For some reason I seemed to be thinking being the Czar of the flight made some difference
 
luvflyin said:
That's what I was wondering about and why I was confused at first. For some reason I seemed to be thinking being the Czar of the flight made some difference
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It does make some difference just not enough. If you both agree that you are acting as PIC, then you are on the hook for everything that happens during the flight. The other pilot busts airspace or make some other faux pas? You're on the hook for it and resulting violation goes on your ticket. But in the case above, you still can't log it. Next time throw some foggles on the other pilot and problem solved.
 
I was thinking ice cream log, or Yule log.
My bad I thought I was still in "Hanger Talk".
 
luvflyin said:
Went up with a safety pilot the other day but the weather said no to any IFR work because neither of us was IFR current. So we just went around the patch 6 times and got us both current to carry passengers. I already was, so it was just moving the date up for me. She wasn't so it was a reset for her. I'm assuming I would log the entire time as PIC even though I was only flying half the time and she would log her time at the controls as PIC.
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You can't log any of the time she was sole manipulator. She can legally log the landings and become current because you were legal to be acting PIC. You were acting PIC, she was logging PIC. You cannot log because you weren't sole manipulator or safety pilot and therefore not a necessary crew member for the flight.

Now, we can argue if it's a good idea to be acting PIC while another pilot gets current, especially from an insurance POV, but that's a whole other conversation.
 
Salty said:
You can't log any of the time she was sole manipulator. She can legally log the landings and become current because you were legal to be acting PIC. You were acting PIC, she was logging PIC. You cannot log because you weren't sole manipulator or safety pilot and therefore not a necessary crew member for the flight.

Now, we can argue if it's a good idea to be acting PIC while another pilot gets current, especially from an insurance POV, but that's a whole other conversation.
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But this is the first thing about the original thread that has me scratching my head. How can she (not being current) carry any passenger whle she is flying to get current? The OP is not a CFI (at least not for this situation).

The reason I ask is that I am day and night current. My wife is not night current. Can I then be along with her while she gets night current. If not why would it be any different from this day case?
 
Sinistar said:
But this is the first thing about the original thread that has me scratching my head. How can she (not being current) carry any passenger whle she is flying to get current? The OP is not a CFI (at least not for this situation).

The reason I ask is that I am day and night current. My wife is not night current. Can I then be along with her while she gets night current. If not why would it be any different from this day case?
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We're still talking about who is acting as PIC. Consider the captain on an airline flight. The first officer is flying the airplane. The captain leaves the cockpit for a few minutes to got to the restroom. The captain is still the captain when in the restroom. Her authority over and ultimate responsibility for the flight don't change. Heck the FO might not even be authorized to act as PIC! Same for us. The authority and responsibility of being pilot in command doesn't change with a transfer of the controls.

So now, here is your flight. You are passenger current; your wife is not. Not being night current only means she cannot be (act as) pilot in command with a passenger. If you and she agree that you will be in command, as the pilot in command, you can permit her to make as many landings as she wants.

Here's my short version of the difference between acting as PIC and logging PIC time:
Acting as PIC is about duty, authority, and responsibility.
Logging PIC is about what you write in our logbook after the flight, with a beer in your hand.​
 
This might be helpful, see my notes in brackets...

14 CFR 61.51(e)(1)
(e) Logging pilot-in-command flight time. (1) A sport, recreational, private, commercial, or airline transport pilot may log pilot in command flight time for flights-

(i) When the pilot is the sole manipulator of the controls of an aircraft for which the pilot is rated, or has sport pilot privileges for that category and class of aircraft, if the aircraft class rating is appropriate;[so if you're rated, and touching the controls, you can log PIC regardless of whether you're ACTING as PIC]

(ii) When the pilot is the sole occupant in the aircraft; [allows solo student pilots to log PIC time]

(iii) When the pilot, except for a holder of a sport or recreational pilot certificate, acts as pilot in command of an aircraft for which more than one pilot is required under the type certification of the aircraft or the regulations under which the flight is conducted; [this portion allows a safety pilot who agrees to act as PIC to log PIC time when the sole manipulator of the controls is wearing a view limiting device]

(iv) [not applicable in this situation]
 
I'm quite confused; your passenger / second pilot wasn't current to carry passengers. If that's the case, and if you aren't a CFI, how could she become current with you in the plane? Are you not merely a passenger at that point? (Or, to put it another way, could you get current in a Malibu with five other pilots, but not with five non-pilots?)
I guess all of this points to what happens when committees write regulations.
 
Brad Z said:
This might be helpful, see my notes in brackets...

14 CFR 61.51(e)(1)
(e) Logging pilot-in-command flight time. (1) A sport, recreational, private, commercial, or airline transport pilot may log pilot in command flight time for flights-

(i) When the pilot is the sole manipulator of the controls of an aircraft for which the pilot is rated, or has sport pilot privileges for that category and class of aircraft, if the aircraft class rating is appropriate;[so if you're rated, and touching the controls, you can log PIC regardless of whether you're ACTING as PIC]

(ii) When the pilot is the sole occupant in the aircraft; [allows solo student pilots to log PIC time]

(iii) When the pilot, except for a holder of a sport or recreational pilot certificate, acts as pilot in command of an aircraft for which more than one pilot is required under the type certification of the aircraft or the regulations under which the flight is conducted; [this portion allows a safety pilot who agrees to act as PIC to log PIC time when the sole manipulator of the controls is wearing a view limiting device]

(iv) [not applicable in this situation]
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The "can I log it rules" are not the easiest thing to understand on the first few go throughs.... Reminds me of a scene in a favorite movie and I somewhat expect the last paragraphs of that FAR to go like this

Pilot: Hey, wait, wait. What does this say here, this thing here?
FAA: Oh, that? Oh, that's the usual clause that's in every rule. That just says, uh, it says, uh, if any of the parties participating in this rule are shown not to be in their right mind, the entire rule and flight is automatically nullified.
Pilot: Well, I don't know...
FAA: It's all right. That's, that's in every rule . That's, that's what they call a sanity clause.
Pilot: Ha-ha-ha-ha-ha! You can't fool me. I don't believe in no Sanity Clause!​
 
Kenny Phillips said:
I'm quite confused; your passenger / second pilot wasn't current to carry passengers. If that's the case, and if you aren't a CFI, how could she become current with you in the plane? Are you not merely a passenger at that point? (Or, to put it another way, could you get current in a Malibu with five other pilots, but not with five non-pilots?)
I guess all of this points to what happens when committees write regulations.
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I want to try answer this but I'm guessing I'll screw it up:

If Passenger # 1 in the Malibu is a pilot and holds all the required licenses and ratings and is current and will be acting as Pilot In Command then the pilot could get current. What seems gray is if the other 4 passengers (doesn't matter if they are pilot) would be allowed. But even if non-pilots I think they would be allowed as the PIC is fully rated and current. Do I have that right?
 
Van Johnston said:
Man I wish somebody would make a flow chart to help wind through all these permutations.......
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Once the government and lawyers have touched it I don't think the concept of "permutations" is applicable.

One day this this will be the ultimate test of a AI system :)
 
Kenny Phillips said:
I'm quite confused; your passenger / second pilot wasn't current to carry passengers. If that's the case, and if you aren't a CFI, how could she become current with you in the plane? Are you not merely a passenger at that point? (Or, to put it another way, could you get current in a Malibu with five other pilots, but not with five non-pilots?)
I guess all of this points to what happens when committees write regulations.
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No he is not a passenger he is the Pilot in Command if the feces hits the oscillating device and she pooches the landing it is on him.

ETA: That doesn't mean they can't do it and she becomes current after her 3 landings and she can log PIC even though she can't act as PIC. Clear as mud.
 
Van Johnston said:
Man I wish somebody would make a flow chart to help wind through all these permutations.......
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Someone on PoA used to (meaningful look toward Michigan and a pilot associated with 6Y9).
 
DFH65 said:
No he is not a passenger he is the Pilot in Command if the feces hits the oscillating device and she pooches the landing it is on him.

ETA: That doesn't mean they can't do it and she becomes current after her 3 landings and she can log PIC even though she can't act as PIC. Clear as mud.
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This. Well, the first sentence. The later is a little confusing.

He is acting pic, but she is logging the flight. He can’t log the flight but he is legally responsible for it. He does not have to be a CFI to be acting PIC
 
Salty said:
You can't log any of the time she was sole manipulator. She can legally log the landings and become current because you were legal to be acting PIC. You were acting PIC, she was logging PIC. You cannot log because you weren't sole manipulator or safety pilot and therefore not a necessary crew member for the flight.

Now, we can argue if it's a good idea to be acting PIC while another pilot gets current, especially from an insurance POV, but that's a whole other conversation.
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Hmm. I wouldn't think they could deny the whole claim. She was current to fly. I, the passenger may have been SOL if she hurt me. And I suppose the FAA could go after me for being a bad PIC and letting someone who wasn't current for pax fly pax on my watch. And her to, she shoulda known better. That does it, I ain't loggin nuthin.
 
Now I'm beginning to wonder about something else. She is a CFI. Her cert is current or whatever you call it. Just didn't have three landings in the last 90 days. She wasn't there as a CFI, I hadn't hired her for anything. She wasn't giving instruction. Does that change anything?
 
Salty said:
Now, we can argue if it's a good idea to be acting PIC while another pilot gets current, especially from an insurance POV, but that's a whole other conversation.
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I don't really see this being much of an issue for the insurance point of view. Its a perfectly legal operation for one pilot to get passenger current while another current pilot acts as PIC. So unless your policy specifically exempts the operation from coverage, they'd be on the hook for the claim should one come about.
 
Thread title "Logging Question" has a different meaning in Maine.

iu
 
luvflyin said:
Now I'm beginning to wonder about something else. She is a CFI. Her cert is current or whatever you call it. Just didn't have three landings in the last 90 days. She wasn't there as a CFI, I hadn't hired her for anything. She wasn't giving instruction. Does that change anything?
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It doesn't change anything for you, and doesn't change anything for her if she wasn't giving instruction.
 
Juliet Hotel said:
I don't really see this being much of an issue for the insurance point of view. Its a perfectly legal operation for one pilot to get passenger current while another current pilot acts as PIC. So unless your policy specifically exempts the operation from coverage, they'd be on the hook for the claim should one come about.
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The acting pic better be on the policy or covered by the open portion, or maybe there is a coverage issue. Maybe not, but like I said, that’s another conversation.
 
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