Youtube Pilot and her dad perish in TN

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FPK1 said:
How would the FAA know who her instructors were or who signed off High Performance and or Complex. Isn't it just a log book entry? So unless they get access to log books or statements of others, no way of knowing, right?
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They typically request the logbooks as part of any accident investigation. With the pilot dead, they may or may not get them, but they'll try.
 
Dana said:
They typically request the logbooks as part of any accident investigation. With the pilot dead, they may or may not get them, but they'll try.
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And lots of pilots carry them with them while flying. Unfortunately, this incident resulted in a fire.
 
TrueCourse said:
If the instructor documented that an HP endorsement was conducted in accordance with the regulation I don’t see it being easily proven by the FAA that it was their fault.
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61.31 is pretty vague as to what constitutes “proper” instruction towards a high performance or complex endorsement. But I‘d bet the FAA could gig a lot of instructors for not logging ground instruction towards them.
 
Yes, it’s vague, and therefore in accordance.
 
FPK1 said:
I like this guy's Pilot Debriefs:

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Ooomph... tough to watch.
But hey, who among us hasn't embarked on a VFR XC flight on a CAVU day and gotten lost moments after takeoff only to do multiple 360s over the airport to figure out the right direction to go? Happens to the best of us :rolleyes: .
 
ArrowFlyer86 said:
Ooomph... tough to watch.
But hey, who among us hasn't embarked on a VFR XC flight on a CAVU day and gotten lost moments after takeoff only to do multiple 360s over the airport to figure out the right direction to go? Happens to the best of us :rolleyes: .
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Does getting lost about eight miles away from the departure airport count? Of course, that was on my first ever solo XC, and I just kept flying on the heading I knew I needed to be on and found myself about two miles later thanks to the sectional on my lap...but that did help me understand the dangers of fiddling with the electronics since I'd lost my positional awareness due to me screwing up the GPS and trying to fix it! :crazy:
 
SkyChaser said:
Does getting lost about eight miles away from the departure airport count? Of course, that was on my first ever solo XC, and I just kept flying on the heading I knew I needed to be on and found myself about two miles later thanks to the sectional on my lap...but that did help me understand the dangers of fiddling with the electronics since I'd lost my positional awareness due to me screwing up the GPS and trying to fix it! :crazy:
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Her lack of heading awareness with a perfectly good DG and whiskey compass is what baffled me. That, combined with a 430 (wasn't this the one where she accidentally turned it off a little later?) and an iPad presumably running an EFB? Just... how? Like you said, just fly a general heading for a minute and re-orient yourself. You keep going in circles without any attention to heading, you're not helping yourself.

Also, the sun is low, it's late afternoon, it's going to be in the south-southwest portion of the sky that time of year. Giant power plant stacks, visible in the distance at 4:24 in Hoover's video, that were right along her route of flight. Just so many missed cues.
 
dmspilot said:
So famous YouTubers ripping off the little guys now. Thanks Pilot Debrief for posting the exact same analysis I already posted :rolleyes:
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It may be that your video is the only one remaining and people are riffing on it. But yeah, this accident is fairly low-hanging fruit for just about anyone with an ounce of knowledge, much less deeper understanding.

I mean, realistically, the scenario of the pilot being that far behind the aircraft has played out soooo many times. The difference here is visibility - this accident was basically foreshadowed and televised nearly in real time, at least to those who were paying attention.

For me, the tragedy (outside of the familial, human connections) is the hubris of the pilot, as in more aircraft, more money, more safe, which is not the case. And seemingly no connection to the real problem. Then it's the ignorance of the people blindly encouraging her, through comments or views and subscriptions, with any critique downvoted to oblivion. Sadly, we see plenty more where that came from, and it's spurring an entire industry of analysts, almost as a counterpoint.
 
ArrowFlyer86 said:
Ooomph... tough to watch.
But hey, who among us hasn't embarked on a VFR XC flight on a CAVU day and gotten lost moments after takeoff only to do multiple 360s over the airport to figure out the right direction to go? Happens to the best of us :rolleyes: .
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Well I guess we now know how she got her 400 hours in such a short period of time...
 
donjohnston said:
So what was the "one thing nobody else is saying" about this? I tried watching it but just couldn't make it long enough to find out what it was.
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the "one thing nobody else is saying" is exactly what the entire aviation community is in fact saying over and over, and EXACTLY what I said early on in this thread (post 113). which also leads me to believe between that and him totally stealing dmspilot's video that he's on POA or at least stalking it.
 
Flying Keys said:
Her lack of heading awareness with a perfectly good DG and whiskey compass is what baffled me. That, combined with a 430 (wasn't this the one where she accidentally turned it off a little later?) and an iPad presumably running an EFB? Just... how? Like you said, just fly a general heading for a minute and re-orient yourself. You keep going in circles without any attention to heading, you're not helping yourself.
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Well I think it's more than that. It goes back to her crossing intersections without stopping. I just don't really think she cared to pay attention and that is dangerous especially around another airport. She rather fiddle around with the gps than to fly a normal heading.

dmspilot said:
So famous YouTubers ripping off the little guys now. Thanks Pilot Debrief for posting the exact same analysis I already posted :rolleyes:
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Yours was much better.
 
eman1200 said:
the "one thing nobody else is saying" is exactly what the entire aviation community is in fact saying over and over, and EXACTLY what I said early on in this thread (post 113). which also leads me to believe between that and him totally stealing dmspilot's video that he's on POA or at least stalking it.
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Or else, "Great minds think alike."
 
The nobody else is saying was that the flight instruction was deficient. Not sure why he thinks nobody else is saying that. He must live under a rock.
 
flyingron said:
The nobody else is saying was that the flight instruction was deficient. Not sure why he thinks nobody else is saying that. He must live under a rock.
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he says the thing no one is talking about is that she didn't use her videos to learn from her mistakes. just go to 9:13 of the video (in case the 'start at' timestamp doesn't work):

 
jpwing said:
When she turns on the auto pilot and says "Let's see where it takes us", she has demonstrated all you need to know about her piloting skills. Unfortunately, it was only a matter of time.
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I could forgive that if she had been paying any attention to the compass and HSI, but yeah, that was a scary statement.

One of the things I'm working to improve in my G1000 skills is to include the top line of the PFD in my scan (the "where is it taking us" line, for those who are not familiar).
 
jpwing said:
When she turns on the auto pilot and says "Let's see where it takes us", she has demonstrated all you need to know about her piloting skills.
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I still think some of this has to be manufactured “damsel in distress “ drama for clicks. I find it hard to believe that she’d actually be THAT clueless.
 
Bill said:
I still think some of this has to be manufactured “damsel in distress “ drama for clicks. I find it hard to believe that she’d actually be THAT clueless.
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How about the flight track (and associated video commentary) where she got lost immediately after takeoff?

Granted, I didn't see the original video and my knowledge is second-hand through these debrief videos, but those actions are consistent with someone who had no situational awareness or ability to create a picture of one's state through info provided by the instruments.

I'm not sure why someone would intentionally portray themselves to be that inept.
 
To be fair, she had just gotten her autopilot fixed. The prior flight depicted a CFI showing her how to use it, albeit not doing a very thorough job. This was her first time using it by herself.
Bill said:
I still think some of this has to be manufactured “damsel in distress “ drama for clicks. I find it hard to believe that she’d actually be THAT clueless.
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And yet she crashed in severe clear VFR from cruising altitude.
 
I’m
Baked Potato said:
How about the flight track (and associated video commentary) where she got lost immediately after takeoff?
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dmspilot said:
To be fair, she had just gotten her autopilot fixed. The prior flight depicted a CFI showing her how to use it, albeit not doing a very thorough job. This was her first time using it by herself.

And yet she crashed in severe clear VFR from cruising altitude.
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I see your arguments, I’m just finding it very hard to grasp that someone could be that clueless. This is fairly simple stuff. I guess I’m at a loss here.
 
Bill said:
I see your arguments, I’m just finding it very hard to grasp that someone could be that clueless. This is fairly simple stuff. I guess I’m at a loss here.
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Hopefully the NTSB will be talking with her instructors and examiners. I think everyone agrees she should not have been certified if her skills were truly that bad.

Maybe it was a very elaborate murder/suicide.....

(Hmmm. Movie script?)
 
Bill said:
I see your arguments, I’m just finding it very hard to grasp that someone could be that clueless. This is fairly simple stuff. I guess I’m at a loss here.
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Yes, I am too!
We can't go to her original videos anymore so all we have are other people's critiques, but multiple times I had the very same reaction. Just flabbergasted. Unless our current understanding is grossly inaccurate, this conclusion was inevitable.
 
Half Fast said:
Hopefully the NTSB will be talking with her instructors and examiners. I think everyone agrees she should not have been certified if her skills were truly that bad.
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and what do you expect them to say....."even though she kinda busted every maneuver and couldn't navigate her way out of a cereal box, because she was kinda cute I kinda signed her off anyways" ? that's the phenomena cajun_flyer (a woman) used to refer to as the "vagina effect", which we all know is 100% real.
 
eman1200 said:
and what do you expect them to say....."even though she kinda busted every maneuver and couldn't navigate her way out of a cereal box, because she was kinda cute I kinda signed her off anyways" ? that's the phenomena cajun_flyer (a woman) used to refer to as the "vagina effect", which we all know is 100% real.
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100%

Same effect that had all those neckbeards from the internet swooping in and defending her against any criticism.
You could have a semi-attractive woman publishing YT videos of her straight up trying to hug a spinning propeller and there'd be some thirsty dude out there defending her and writing stuff like "baby you're SO beautiful and brave!!". It's a hilariously real effect.
Somehow I imagine there's many CFIs who are not immune to the same ridiculous bias.
 
ArrowFlyer86 said:
100%

Same effect that had all those neckbeards from the internet swooping in and defending her against any criticism.
You could have a semi-attractive woman publishing YT videos of her straight up trying to hug a spinning propeller and there'd be some thirsty dude out there defending her and writing stuff like "baby you're SO beautiful and brave!!". It's a hilariously real effect.
Somehow I imagine there's many CFIs who are not immune to the same ridiculous bias.
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Sometimes, I'm really jealous of women attractive enough/right personality to do that stuff and sometimes, I'm really, really glad that I'm apparently not the proper "type" to cause that reaction in guys. I saw it plenty with some of my sisters, and it's almost scary how much incompetence and other stuff women can get away with just by being cute and/or flirty. I really hope that it wasn't the case here, but I don't see how she could have passed, if the skills she showed in her videos were anywhere near what she showed on checkrides.
 
The TLDR of this accident chain is a failure to RTFM. It is inconceivable to me that one would even try to operate a WAAS GPS or an autopilot without diving in to the manual. This is not something you can "figure out on your own." I refuse to blame instructors for the failure of a certificated pilot to be properly informed.

Unfortunately, this kind of behavior is all too common among younger adults. In the last decade or so, my undergraduates found the idea of reading operating documentation (even my TLDR versions) for complex scientific equipment too daunting. Even a numbered list of sequential operations (like a checklist) is too hard to follow. "Isn't there a video?" Flying an aircraft or working in a research laboratory is serious business where mistakes or ignorance can incur significant monetary costs and personal risks.

When I worked with young postdocs at the NIH a while ago, I was repeatedly asked how I learned so much about certain laboratory techniques and instrumentation. My answer was usually "I read the manual."
 
Half Fast said:
Hopefully the NTSB will be talking with her instructors and examiners. I think everyone agrees she should not have been certified if her skills were truly that bad….
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Yet at least one CFI and DPE found that on at least four separate occasions (solo, solo XC, checkride endorsement and checkride) her skills met or exceeded the criteria. True, those were snapshots in time in a different aircraft, so continued proficiency, while expected, was not guaranteed.

I said this way earlier, her audience got to see the story she wanted to tell and, quite honestly, we don’t really know what story that was. If she wanted to tell a story of overcoming adversity as a woman in what’s largely considered a male dominated field, that’s the story we saw. I think it’s fair to say the evidence so far indicates producing the story she wanted to tell took precedence over aviating, navigating, and communicating. So much so it killed her and her passenger.

There’s also the off chance of CO poisoning, toxicological impairment, and alien interference.
 
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donjohnston said:
So what was the "one thing nobody else is saying" about this? I tried watching it but just couldn't make it long enough to find out what it was.
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From that video, the 'big thing that nobody is saying' is that....

And I'm paraphrasing here, I'm not watching it again....

"She didn't do a safety debriefing after her recorded flights"
 
SkyChaser said:
Sometimes, I'm really jealous of women attractive enough/right personality to do that stuff and sometimes, I'm really, really glad that I'm apparently not the proper "type" to cause that reaction in guys. I saw it plenty with some of my sisters, and it's almost scary how much incompetence and other stuff women can get away with just by being cute and/or flirty. I really hope that it wasn't the case here, but I don't see how she could have passed, if the skills she showed in her videos were anywhere near what she showed on checkrides.
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You are plenty “attractive enough” but you don’t have an aura of incompetence that brings out the “hero” response in guys and makes them want to “rescue” you. Anyone who speaks with you for 10 minutes realizes you don’t need much help.
 
chemgeek said:
The TLDR of this accident chain is a failure to RTFM. It is inconceivable to me that one would even try to operate a WAAS GPS or an autopilot without diving in to the manual. This is not something you can "figure out on your own." I refuse to blame instructors for the failure of a certificated pilot to be properly informed.

Unfortunately, this kind of behavior is all too common among younger adults. In the last decade or so, my undergraduates found the idea of reading operating documentation (even my TLDR versions) for complex scientific equipment too daunting. Even a numbered list of sequential operations (like a checklist) is too hard to follow. "Isn't there a video?" Flying an aircraft or working in a research laboratory is serious business where mistakes or ignorance can incur significant monetary costs and personal risks.

When I worked with young postdocs at the NIH a while ago, I was repeatedly asked how I learned so much about certain laboratory techniques and instrumentation. My answer was usually "I read the manual."
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Let’s take that a step further… “Nobody” reads the owner’s manual for their car. Ford has figured that out, so they no longer provide an owner’s manual (based on a single data point—my FIL bought a new Lincoln that doesn’t have one.)

So how do you learn about your car? You watch YouTube.
 
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