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fukhar

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Fukhar
I was flying to an uncontrolled airport today. I called on the CTAF 5 miles out and joined the downwind (right downwind for runway 27) in a 45 degree angle while descending to the pattern altitude (1000' AGL). No traffic in the pattern, just a helicopter north of the field (no factor). VFR daylight conditions. When I was on the middle of the downwind leg, abeam the middle of the runway and at pattern altitude a taildragger that was overflying the field at pattern altitude from south to north came very close to me. Even though I was looking for traffic the whole time I was unable to see him. He wasn't on the CTAF. He might have had me in sight since I was on his nose the whole time, but I didnt have him insight until he came very close to me and crossed the downwind leg behind me.

Any thoughts? What went wrong here?
 
There is no such thing as an UN-CONTROLLED airport...........

because you are the control at an UN-TOWERED airport.
 
Whether he was on the CTAF or not, it seems to me that he should not have been overflying the field at TPA.
 
Welcome to the wonderful world of non-towered (I hate the term "uncontrolled") airports. There's no requirement for radios, so you keep your head on a swivel and expect the unexpected. I had a Mooney pass 100' over me in the opposite direction, while I was on the downwind leg, broadcast that he was number one for landing. (Think about it.. he was heading the wrong direction on the wrong side!!!)
 
Sounds like classic light taildragger with no radio doing whatever he feels like he wants to (I'm guessing Piper Cub or Champ?).

Lesson learned - always watch out for those. They're out there and those idiots can kill you.

Sounds like you were doing the right thing - lots of pilots will debate whether or not it is acceptable to enter the pattern by flying overhead at midfield, but regardless, he should not have been doing that with you already established in the pattern.
 
I agree. Is there any reporting necessary that I should do?
 
GeorgeC said:
Whether he was on the CTAF or not, it seems to me that he should not have been overflying the field at TPA.
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Yeah, that is where the problem was - not the OP or anything he did. It's bad form to cross a 4 way intersection without stopping at the stop sign just like it's bad form to fly headfirst at the same altitude as cross traffic.

Call me paranoid, but I always flew at 2600 or 3100 in cruise and I always flew TPA 100 high also

Bob
 
fukhar said:
I agree. Is there any reporting necessary that I should do?
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Depends:

If by "reporting" you mean a NASA form, submit one if you think it will improve safety or cover any possible transgression on your part.

If by "reporting" you mean announcing your position around the pattern, do it even though some may not be listening. (There are pilots out there that are listening and would really like to know where you are.)
 
fukhar said:
I agree. Is there any reporting necessary that I should do?
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Be positive you are on the correct freq, then make your position reports as if words are $5.00 each.
23V....... 45 degrees to enter the left down wind to 25 OKH
23V....... left down wind 25 OKH
23V....... left base 25 OKH
23V...... final 25 OKH

don't clutter the Freq with babble. Say who you are, where you are and where you are going. then shut up.
 
upstateny said:
Depends:

If by "reporting" you mean a NASA form, submit one if you think it will improve safety or cover any possible transgression on your part.
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NASA doesn't care how close you were, unless you are under the control of ATC, there is no requirement for separation in the pattern at non towered airports.

Common sense rules, you live or die by it.
 
Tom-D said:
Be positive you are on the correct freq, then make your position reports as if words are $5.00 each.
23V....... 45 degrees to enter the left down wind to 25 OKH
23V....... left down wind 25 OKH
23V....... left base 25 OKH
23V...... final 25 OKH

don't clutter the Freq with babble. Say who you are, where you are and where you are going. then shut up.
Click to expand...

Except that you always announce the airport designator first and last when on CTAF.

First to get the attention of those nearby to listen up.

Last for the morons who didn't.

At least that's the way I do it.
 
timwinters said:
Except that you always announce the airport designator first and last when on CTAF.

First to get the attention of those nearby to listen up.

Last for the morons who didn't.

At least that's the way I do it.
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Where is that given as a rule or advice? seems logical though.
 
timwinters said:
Except that you always announce the airport designator first and last when on CTAF.
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Definitely important to include the airport in the callup particularly in regions where there are alot of non-towered airports like New England. There are only so many freqs set aside for non-towered fields so it is not uncommon for there to be 3 airports within radio range with the same CTAF.
 
Fearless Tower said:
Sounds like classic light taildragger with no radio doing whatever he feels like he wants to (I'm guessing Piper Cub or Champ?).

Lesson learned - always watch out for those. They're out there and those idiots can kill you.

Sounds like you were doing the right thing - lots of pilots will debate whether or not it is acceptable to enter the pattern by flying overhead at midfield, but regardless, he should not have been doing that with you already established in the pattern.
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Not all NORDOS entering the pattern crosswind are jackasses; the brighter ones will do so over the end of the runway, whether they see anybody on downwind or not. Still some chance of conflict that way, but somewhat less than cutting across the middle. Sounds like this one didn't see or just didn't care... but did I read the OP right? This pilot was just passing through at TPA, not entering the pattern? :nonod:
Some NORDOs think that there's less traffic out there just because they don't hear radio chatter. And some folks with radios think it is a magic box that will protect them from collision with other aircraft... both are dead wrong. :rolleyes2:
 
Fearless Tower said:
Definitely important to include the airport in the callup particularly in regions where there are alot of non-towered airports like New England. There are only so many freqs set aside for non-towered fields so it is not uncommon for there to be 3 airports within radio range with the same CTAF.
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Almost every airport in Puget Sound is with in radio range, fortunately we only have a few on each freq.
 
Tom-D said:
Where is that given as a rule or advice? seems logical though.
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In my area, there are several airports within range of each other that use the same CTAF frequency. If you just flipped to the frequency, and catch the end of the call, you'll have no idea where they are.

I learned to fly at an airport that was pretty much by it self, so I didnt say the airport at the end as I wasnt taught to, but you kind of have to in this area now.
 
upstateny said:
Welcome to the wonderful world of non-towered (I hate the term "uncontrolled") airports. There's no requirement for radios, so you keep your head on a swivel and expect the unexpected. I had a Mooney pass 100' over me in the opposite direction, while I was on the downwind leg, broadcast that he was number one for landing. (Think about it.. he was heading the wrong direction on the wrong side!!!)
Click to expand...

We have a whole bunch of fields around here where the TP is left one way, and right the other for stupid noise abatement purposes -- mostly because no one explained to the people in the houses that this will greatly increase the chances of aluminum showers.

Defeats the whole purpose of a stamdard TP really. Really really stupid.
 
Forgot to mention, NORDOs and non-NORDOS coming into the pattern or flying by dead center of the airport are often heads-down following the magic magenta GPS line.

They're particularly dangerous there because of how they got there, usually totally fixated on their gadget inside the cockpit.

Once you see the airport you're eyeballs out. The GPS is no longer needed.

Don't believe me, watch them as they taxi in. They'll be fussing with "something" then too, and not looking out the window.

If you know a habitual offender, a signal mirror in your flight bag can make for hours of fun if you spend a lot of time at the airport. I didn't do this, but you can ask a friend of mine how fun it is to light up their cockpit and their shiny bald heads for just a second and then watch as they play prairie dog and look around like they've been spooked by a hawk's shadow.

Memorize the tail number if they actually use the radio and give 'em a few minutes to do whatever dumb crap they're going to do before you arrive. There's one or two at every airport.
 
Fearless Tower said:
Sounds like classic light taildragger with no radio doing whatever he feels like he wants to (I'm guessing Piper Cub or Champ?).

Lesson learned - always watch out for those. They're out there and those idiots can kill you.

Sounds like you were doing the right thing - lots of pilots will debate whether or not it is acceptable to enter the pattern by flying overhead at midfield, but regardless, he should not have been doing that with you already established in the pattern.
Click to expand...

Almost had a cropduster take me out when I was doing a few touch and goes and an un-towered airport. Apparently my CFI reported a near miss and the tail number had so many near misses the dude got his certificate pulled.
 
Fearless Tower said:
Sounds like classic light taildragger with no radio doing whatever he feels like he wants to (I'm guessing Piper Cub or Champ?).

Lesson learned - always watch out for those. They're out there and those idiots can kill you.
Click to expand...

Most of the "classic light taildragger" pilots I know are multi-thousand hour, multiple airplane types who fly precisely and carefully, just more slowly and lower than the spam-canners.
 
Fearless Tower said:
Sounds like classic light taildragger with no radio doing whatever he feels like he wants to (I'm guessing Piper Cub or Champ?).
Click to expand...

If it wasn't for the fact that it was a taildragger, I would say it sounds more like the typical with radio Cessna 150/172 that I see in the pattern all the time.

ONZ gets entertaining because the pattern is hard up against the Canadian border - you get a lot of creative people trying to do what they think is legal. People crossing midfield at TPA (or 10 feet above...)then making a U turn in the middle of the downwind and claiming that they are entering on a "45" is common (and they typically don't announce until they actually get turned around back to the airport). Others just bust the Canadian air space - One hopes that they are talking to ATC and have a transponder code assigned, but somehow I doubt it. Others descend into the downwind from above. Some just come in from whatever whichway and call it a "downwind". I usually enter from a crosswind. (Which I announce. On the radio. Before I cross the airport. Always. Unlike the Factory nosedraggers.) (I've also done a straight in a couple times. Announced. On the radio.)

Just a few weeks ago, I was a little low on downwind (just working the pattern and got lazy about altitude) and watched a 150/172 cross right over my nose about 50 feet higher. No radio call. No nothing. I doubt that he saw me. If I hadn't been slightly low and not looking for trafic we would have swapped paint. He then announced that he was entering on the "45". Oh, well. They are out there.

Edit: Forgot about the "IFR" doofs that anounce that they are "On the VOR A approach" like that is supposed to mean something as they come roaring into the pattern from the southwest...
 
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I have tried to call early and often when approaching or flying near non-towered fields. I start monitoring the CTAF frequency as soon as it makes sense to (e.g. out of the previous airport's traffic area) to gauge traffic volumes. However, I'm always surprised how quiet things are until I start announcing. Then it's like all the shy people at the party start speaking up. No one wants to be the first many times, but once the ice is broken I find comms with other pilots have always been civil and accommodating thus far.

Often times I'm unfamiliar with the airport so I try to get a good visual of what's going on higher and farther from traffic pattern if I'm going to attempt a landing there. I'm guilty of flying over airports enroute instead of offsetting, but I've never done it at less than 2500' AGL and always take care to announce when I'm approaching, over the airfield, and then departing the area.
 
I am one of the "doofs" referred to here. I will admit "on the VOR alpha approach" is a little vague, especially to VFR pilots. I would add the following. Remember many of these doofs are trying to make a living with a boss in back trying to make a meeting we are late for because he was late getting to the airport. I have just descended from the flight levels and trying to get the plane down below 170 knots so I can get the gear out. If the weather is iffy but still VFR I may be shooting an approach. I am also burning $10 per minute in fuel. NONE OF THIS GIVES ME ONE BIT MORE RIGHT TO THE AIRSPACE THAN A STUDENT IN A 150. However the next time you hear one of these doofs just remember we are trying to fly 150 knot approach speed into a pattern full of 70 knot planes. One airport I go into regularly on the gulf coast, I am always hoping for low ceilings on arrival and departure. So, if you are doing touch and goes in the pattern and you hear a doof, might consider giving him just a little more room to get in and down and out of the way. "Just saying"
 
dmccormack said:
Most of the "classic light taildragger" pilots I know are multi-thousand hour, multiple airplane types who fly precisely and carefully, just more slowly and lower than the spam-canners.
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Alright, alright....hey guys, I fly a 63 year old little taildragger myself...I'm not busting on folks who fly cubs and champs.....HOWEVER, there are sadly alot of guys out there who do fly those airplanes that have know-it-all attitudes who think that they can do whatever they want with their own interpretations of the rules.
 
Fearless Tower said:
FWIW the AIM does actually refer to them as 'uncontrolled'
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That's because some ATC dude wrote the AC,,,,,,. and with out them OMG there is nothing.

Remember no one ever got busted for not following the AIM, they get bsted for violating a FAR. usually FAR 91.-
 
Tom-D said:
That's because some ATC dude wrote the AC,,,,,,. and with out them OMG there is nothing.

Remember no one ever got busted for not following the AIM, they get bsted for violating a FAR. usually FAR 91.-
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I know, I know...just giving you a hard time!
 
Tom-D said:
Where is that given as a rule or advice? seems logical though.
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Since people love citing FAR/AIM references here:

AIM 4-1-9(g)(6) said:
:

6. Recommended self-announce phraseologies: It should be noted that aircraft operating to or from another nearby airport may be making self-announce broadcasts on the same UNICOM or MULTICOM frequency. To help identify one airport from another, the airport name should be spoken at the beginning and end of each self-announce transmission.
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http://www.faa.gov/air_traffic/publications/atpubs/aim/Chap4/aim0401.html
 
fukhar said:
I agree. Is there any reporting necessary that I should do?
Click to expand...

First off, how close in all actuality was he? I know people that think 500' is a near miss with slow (less than 200kt) little GA planes. If you couldn't see his face to recognize it, you weren't "really close". The only reporting that would be potentially indicated is you can fill out a NASA Reporting Form (I forget the number, never filled one out but I used to carry one back when they were all paper.). There is nothing in this situation that "requires" reporting as there were no violations of anything involved, so you are not being deficient by not reporting, but if you feel that this situation was a concern, then the NASA form is the proper venue for you to state your concern.

I find that crossing mid field at 200' is a good place to be NORDO. Except for helicopters, it's kinda a void area as far as traffic goes.
 
Also, GA pilots need to be really careful about saying things to debunk the "Big Sky" theory of aviation safety, because if the powers that be decide "Yep, you're right, that won't work anymore.", the outcome will not be good for GA, not any of us. The solution is available, but it's gonna be mighty expensive, as in $15k airplanes will need $200k upgrades before they ever take to the skies again except maybe as "historical exhibits" under strict operating restrictions and space.
 
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dmccormack said:
Most of the "classic light taildragger" pilots I know are multi-thousand hour, multiple airplane types who fly precisely and carefully, just more slowly and lower than the spam-canners.
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Oh, they might fly precisely but I've seen more than a few that have the attitude of octogenarian drivers..."I've been paying my taxes longer than you've been alive, I will drive (fly) however, and wherever, I damn well please."
 
EdFred said:
Oh, they might fly precisely but I've seen more than a few that have the attitude of octogenarian drivers..."I've been paying my taxes longer than you've been alive, I will drive (fly) however, and wherever, I damn well please."
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Yep, and personally, I'd much rather have them up in the air at 60 kts than on the road at 35 in a 65.... Keep Grampa off the streets, give him a Champ, I can avoid him in the air with no real disturbance. Slow movers don't bother me. It's the fast movers that scare me, the ones that are doing 600kts...

I've never had a scary encounter with a 60 kt plane. I've had several with fast movers.
 
Tom-D said:
Almost every airport in Puget Sound is with in radio range, fortunately we only have a few on each freq.
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And get up to pattern altitude on a nice Saturday and you can hear all of them at once. :D
 
Henning said:
Also, GA pilots need to be really careful about saying things to debunk the "Big Sky" theory of aviation safety, because if the powers that be decide "Yep, you're right, that won't work anymore.", the outcome will not be good for GA, not any of us. The solution is available, but it's gonna be mighty expensive, as in $15k airplanes will need $200k upgrades before they ever take to the skies again except maybe as "historical exhibits" under strict operating restrictions and space.
Click to expand...

I would agree with this. And the reality is the sky is pretty darn big. While I've had my share of "close calls", the reality is that my close calls per hours of flying are a small fraction of my close calls while driving or riding motorcycles. And even with those close calls, I probably never actually needed to change course or altitude to avoid a collision, but I did anyway. I think what ends up happening is that we get concerned about planes actually still being pretty far away because we get so used to never seeing another plane in the sky. Yes, take precautions and be aware of other aircraft potentially being around always.

It sounds like nothing bad happened, and the OP didn't do anything wrong.
 
I always find it funny that people who will drive 70-90mph down a 2 lane highway with 80,000lb trucks coming the other direction with similar speeds passing with less than 3 feet between them, dealing with these type of passing situations thousands of times in a day get upset when they pass within 100' of another airplane a few times a decade.
 
ronnieh said:
I am one of the "doofs" referred to here. I will admit "on the VOR alpha approach" is a little vague, especially to VFR pilots. I would add the following. Remember many of these doofs are trying to make a living with a boss in back trying to make a meeting we are late for because he was late getting to the airport. I have just descended from the flight levels and trying to get the plane down below 170 knots so I can get the gear out. If the weather is iffy but still VFR I may be shooting an approach. I am also burning $10 per minute in fuel. NONE OF THIS GIVES ME ONE BIT MORE RIGHT TO THE AIRSPACE THAN A STUDENT IN A 150. However the next time you hear one of these doofs just remember we are trying to fly 150 knot approach speed into a pattern full of 70 knot planes. One airport I go into regularly on the gulf coast, I am always hoping for low ceilings on arrival and departure. So, if you are doing touch and goes in the pattern and you hear a doof, might consider giving him just a little more room to get in and down and out of the way. "Just saying"
Click to expand...

No objection to getting out of the way of big iron (at least for me). And I have been known to pull off on a taxi way and wait for the dust to settle. You don't want me in front of you, and I don't want you breathing down my neck...

But, "VOR A" leaves me with no clue where you are, when you will get there, and what direction you are coming from (except at my home port where I just happen to know). Are you going to come straight in or joining the downwind? Or??? Which runway? Which way do I go to get out of the way? "5 southeast straight in to 4" at least tells me something useful.

(Of course, there are those who will get torqued about the straight in :dunno: )

Oh, and I am not going 70 knots - more like 55 - and I climb at 48...:wink2:
 
Henning said:
I always find it funny that people who will drive 70-90mph down a 2 lane highway with 80,000lb trucks coming the other direction with similar speeds passing with less than 3 feet between them, dealing with these type of passing situations thousands of times in a day get upset when they pass within 100' of another airplane a few times a decade.
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It's a bit different when you have a yellow line next to you for position reference, that the other vehicle has also.
 
Mike I said:
It's a bit different when you have a yellow line next to you for position reference, that the other vehicle has also.
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That line provides what form of protection? That line is respected to what degree? The only difference there is that one you are used to and the other you aren't.
 
Mike I said:
It's a bit different when you have a yellow line next to you for position reference, that the other vehicle has also.
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You are making the incorrect assumption that you or the other driver are somehow bound by that yellow line and will actually follow it. You have just as bad of a probability of a driver looking down at his map or cell phone as a pilot.
 
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