You'd think this couldn't happen in this day and age...

I think at one time KRAP *may* have had an ATIS but they definitely didn't as of last week.
 
EdFred said:
They are funtional idiots, and deserve to be addressed as such. I came in from the West, and knew KRCA was bigger, knew it would be more visible, and knew where it was in relation to the city. Why did I know this? Because I looked at a ****ing SECTIONAL before I went. Enroutes don't show the city, the approach plates don't show the city, but guess what does. The lowly sectional - which is apparently beneath some people.

It *may* happen to me somewhere, but I doubt it because I do my own flight planning, I get a visual picture of the whole area including satellite views, and I'm not too good to ignore the simple things that are below me.
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People who have been in there before have tried to line up for Ellsworth. The locals are the most understanding of it, because we know and respect the proximity and the challenges that come with it.
If the FAA or Jeppesen felt that depicting cities on sectionals was important they would have done it.

EdFred said:
I think at one time KRAP *may* have had an ATIS but they definitely didn't as of last week.
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Never had an ATIS. I don't know why, heck I wish that they did, but nope.


Mistakes happen, especially when you think you're immune. It doesn't matter if you're a solo student, or if you're a 30+ year airline captain. What we do isn't easy or foolproof. Unfortunately that means that if we have a bad or off day it's really bad.
 
They do depict them on sectionals ;) But I knew what you meant. But they shouldn't have to put them on non-sectionals, because even if you are IFR you should still check out the sectional chart before you fly.

My point was that many instrument/jet pilots are too good to familiarize themselves with what it's going to look like visually - and we have examples of people defending that stupidity in this thread. I think this is a perfect example of that. Had either of them done so (checked out a sectional/satellite views) this wouldn't have happened.

A similar thing happened years ago around here when a jet jockey put it down at 6D9 rather than OSC. Had they bothered to familiarize themselves with what it would look like visually, it wouldn't have happened there either.

Me - I love looking at charts, and sat views, so for me, I already have a pretty good idea of what it is going to look like when I get there. When you have no clue what it's going to look like, this is what you get.
 
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MAKG1 said:
News article was wrong.

http://flightaware.com/live/flight/DAL2845/history/20160708/0111Z/KMSP/KRAP

8:42 arrival according to FlightAware. Scheduled time is 8:40, so that's a lot more plausible than being an hour early.
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I was there when that flight arrived a couple of weeks ago. It was twilight and the ridge to the west does create a bit of an early "sunset", but not awful and not completely dark yet, but very deep shadows. We also had a little overcast that night.

My instructor was trying to catch me doing the same thing coming up from the south (mistaking one airport for the other) but the giveaways for me in deep evening shadow were the airport beacons (double white flash at Ellsworth) and the heading was wrong.

Definitely saw Ellsworth first until I spotted the KRAP beacon, then there it is. And in my case Ellsworh was further away/behind KRAP from my vantage point.

Of course we were also on with approach after being handed off from Center on VFR advisories and that would have been a "backup" to me doing something stupid.

The real eye popper was leaving after driving into town for dinner. It was BLACK. Overcast with one dying thunderstorm to the south, and I was solidly on the instruments for 30 minutes after departure.

There's jack crap and his orchestra for ground lights south of KRAP.
 
EdFred said:
I think at one time KRAP *may* have had an ATIS but they definitely didn't as of last week.
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They must have. When I flew in, I distinctly remember being told something about the field and the proximity of Ellsworth, unless Tower gave the warning.

Granted, that was in 2009 iirc.
 
Just an ASOS now. I just called it to check, no announcement.

But it's clearly in the remarks in the [A/]FD...

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You seem to be obsessed with airline pilots. Airline pilots screw up occasionally, and when they do it makes the news so people like you can spout off what idiots they are. You're so perfect I'm sure you'll let us know when you screw up right? Didn't think so. We get it, you're envious for some reason. Get off your high horse will you. :rolleyes:
 
I've called out people here that aren't 121 who have done similar things - like unable to find a VOR on a sectional chart that's not 5 miles from their destination because they are a child of the magenta line. I'm envious of being a functional idiot? Hardly. I realize you have to have your thin blue line between the "real" pilots - like the ones who land at the wrong airport - and us lowly spam cans that get in the way, and you have to defend them, but damn. With you guys being sooooooo professional and soooooo much better than all of us because you've got ATP printed on your cert this should NEVER happen. Like I said, when you're too good to do certain things, this is what you get. And no, I've never landed at the wrong airport. The closest I have ever come to landing at the wrong airport was punching in JAX instead of JXN, and before I even got to the next screen - or even released the brakes - I realized the distance and heading was wrong. So you got me, there's my land at the wrong airport screw up.
 
mscard88 said:
Your day will come, count on it.
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I will also count on winning the PowerBall since the chances are about the same considering I will always do my own flight planning and am not going for my ATP.
 
Ed is right, although he says it plainly and without sugar-coating.
A PIC should not make such mistakes.
And while the airlines might not be carrying sectionals (or might not even know how to read them after having grown up in jet sims), at least they should have overlaid an approach, set the rwy heading on the course bug, identified the rwy numbers visually etc.

Yes, we are human and we make mistakes. But these guys are paid to not make mistakes and to use checklists and SOPs.
I am curious whether this happened due to some violation of the SOPs I mentioned. I was under the impression that overlaying an approach even in VMC and for a visual approach is required for most good airlines. (but I could be wrong)

When we, small GA pilots, fly somewhere, we do our own planning and we know where we're going, which way, how high etc. The airline crew is usually not part of that process so they just jump in the cockpit, program the FMS and off they go, often not even knowing anything about the destination but the ICAO code and TAF for their arrival. Even more reason to pre-program a dang approach to make sure I am landing at the right airport. :)

Also, if I am on a 3-mile final and my FMS says "10nm to destination", that would raise questions in my mind.
And as many pointed out, this is a local peculiarity so I'd expect the controllers to be watching all inbound airplanes like a hawk due to the high chance of this specific pilot mistake.

Okay, off my soap box now. :) Glad nobody got hurt (except egos) and I feel bad for the passengers who got an unpleasant travel surprise.
 
EdFred said:
I've called out people here that aren't 121 who have done similar things .
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Guess that makes you feel superior somehow. Exciting. Whatever blows your cork. :rolleyes:
 
Awwwwww, something hit a little too close to home.
 
Because I call a spade a spade and someone might get their feelings hurt when that happens?

Don't **** up, don't get called out on it. Pretty simple concept. Something that's been lost on those that need to be patted on the head for not dribbling down their pants when they take a ****.

If you can't find a VOR that's right next to an airport you've flown into 20-30 times, or you can't tell the difference between northeast and southeast, or can't tell the difference between 14 or 13, don't get upset at someone who points it out.

Then again I'm not the guy that has to show everyone all my ratings to try and impress them.
 
mscard88 said:
I don't believe you. You're the type that definitely would.
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And you'd be wrong. I have family and friends that don't even know I'm a pilot. Plus, my info here doesn't say squat about my ratings. Yours on the other hand...
 
EdFred said:
I will also count on winning the PowerBall since the chances are about the same considering I will always do my own flight planning and am not going for my ATP.
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You may not land at the wrong airport, but you certainly have equal opportunity to make a mistake. Whether it be a gear up, a groundloop, landing without clearance, landing on the wrong runway at an airport, busting airspace....

"But for the grace of God...."


And to whoever said it really is DARK in RAP. Yeah, it's something else. I flew RAP->PIR and back one night and it was nothing. May as well have been IMC.
 
What's wrong with my info? It's factual, not bragging as YOU seem to think.

Seems I have a few 'likes' about what I wrote about you. "Unfog" that mirror and take a good look.
 
mscard88 said:
Nope, just wondering why you're the POA jerk that's all.
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I thought you had been around long enough for that.

Ed is the forum's designated ***hole. He'll even tell you so.

Ed -- yanking someone's chain is not productive, nor is it friendly, nor does it build community. It's destructive at best, and ineffective. Please give it a rest. Even though you're right, it's not necessary to call names nor attack whole classes of people to make the point at hand. I don't think anyone here thinks the mistake of landing at the wrong airport is even slightly excusable. But perhaps something can be learned from understanding the human factors.

For the record, I've never landed at the wrong airport, nor even come close, nor do I think I ever will. Nor have I ever landed without clearance or without permission from the owner (both of which must have happened here). Even with no magenta line. But I'm not about to allow myself to get complacent about it.
 
MAKG1 said:
I thought you had been around long enough for that.

Ed is the forum's designated ***hole. He'll even tell you so.

.
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I know what he is, and what you wrote is what I think too. But just because someone screws up, and particularly an airline crew, some like him get their jollies off criticizing them just because their 'airline' pilots. Just felt it was uncalled for. That crew has to face the music, in addition to their fellow pilots and friends, while someone like old eddy can screw up and we'll never hear about it.
 
MAKG1 said:
Ed is the forum's designated ***hole. He'll even tell you so.
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I thought we rotated that duty. :cool:

Some of my favorite folks on POA have had their turn at it. That I know for certain.

I'm sure some think I have as well. They'd probably be right.
 
SkyDog58 said:
I thought we rotated that duty. :cool:

Some of my favorite folks on POA have had their turn at it. That I know for certain.

I'm sure some think I have as well. They'd probably be right.
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To some extent, we do. It's the nature of an online board with a rather vigorously opinionated population.

But I do think Ed rather enjoys yanking chains, just to yank chains.
 
Like the Gulf of Oh Man?

Might need a sectional chart to get that one, though. So a few here will be scratching their heads .
 
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