You'd think this couldn't happen in this day and age...

Velocity173 said:
up, see a runway that looks exactly like the one they're suppose to land on and shoot an approach to it. Fatigue can make you do strange things.

I'd just like to hear the "tapes" on what KRAP tower was doing. "Delta twenty eight forty five not in sight, wind one eight zero at eight, runway one four, cleared to land." :confused:
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Just because the tower has an aircraft in sight does not mean that he or she has to get the binos out and watch it for the five minutes it takes to move those 15 miles. They have other aircraft doing other approaches which also take away from concentrating on ONE airplane that sure looks like it's headed the right way.
 
Ironically, this is the sort of accident that WON'T happen to those foreign airlines where the crews know how to run the computers but not how to fly. They might undershoot now and then, but they NEVER undershoot at the wrong airport....

Ron Wanttaja
 
Z06_Mir said:
Just because the tower has an aircraft in sight does not mean that he or she has to get the binos out and watch it for the five minutes it takes to move those 15 miles. They have other aircraft doing other approaches which also take away from concentrating on ONE airplane that sure looks like it's headed the right way.
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Didn't say to concentrate on ONE aircraft. You divide your attention among all of your aircraft. It's ATC 101 multitasking.

You also are required to scan the airspace that you have responsibility for. If you're working tower at KRCA and you can't see an unscheduled airliner that's on final to your runway, that's not good.

If you're at KRAP and you've cleared them to land, you should be looking out to to try and acquire them visually. If you can't see them because of distance, or if you have no CTRD (radar), then you can clear them to land with "not in sight." That scenario could have happened but I'd bet anything KRAP has either a certified or uncertified CTRD.

Finally, unless approach looked away and kicked up their feet after the clearance, I can't see how they could've missed him lining up for 13...at his own airfield.

There were several minutes, where several controllers could have stepped in and prevented this. Overall fault is squarely on the shoulders of the Delta crew but I wonder what both towers and approach were doing during all this.
 
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mscard88 said:
Is it me? I don't see anything on your post. :(
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I dunno. Did you do it once? It was around 1983 or so, give or take a year. Or did you mean you couldn't find anything online about it? It didn't make the news. They just lectured him, made him sign a "hold harmless" and let him take off. I don't think his date went to well that evening.
 
luvflyin said:
I dunno. Did you do it once? It was around 1983 or so, give or take a year. Or did you mean you couldn't find anything online about it? It didn't make the news. They just lectured him, made him sign a "hold harmless" and let him take off. I don't think his date went to well that evening.
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I didn't see anything on your post, it was missing. Was it a pic, article etc?
 
And there was also the Dreamlifter that landed at Col James Jabara instead of McConnell.
 
Velocity173 said:
..........I'd just like to hear the "tapes" on what KRAP tower was doing. "Delta twenty eight forty five not in sight, wind one eight zero at eight, runway one four, cleared to land." :confused:
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Yeah. If I read right it was VFR and maybe should have been in sight. If they didn't see him and didn't say it, they're gonna have some explaining to do. If the Tower has a Radar display someone may ask "didn't he seem just a tad bit low to you"
 
Z06_Mir said:
Just because the tower has an aircraft in sight does not mean that he or she has to get the binos out and watch it for the five minutes it takes to move those 15 miles. They have other aircraft doing other approaches which also take away from concentrating on ONE airplane that sure looks like it's headed the right way.
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Absolutely. They're going to be questioned though. There was no accident so I don't think the NTSB gets involved but an internal FAA inquisition will probably take place.
 
luvflyin said:
Absolutely. They're going to be questioned though. There was no accident so I don't think the NTSB gets involved but an internal FAA inquisition will probably take place.
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The pilots will certainly think it is. :fingerwag:
 
Over on airlinepilotcentral the Delta boys are saying the Capt is retiring August 31st. Couple of FOs said he was a nice guy. Sad to end with something like this happening. My last flight flying a CRJ 900 all I said to myself was, 'don't f#@% up', and thankfully I didn't.
 
Velocity173 said:
Good job on TRACON in pointing out both airports but when he and both towers should've been monitoring the aircraft's track. Part of Local's duties is to monitor their airspace and runways. You see an a passenger jet on final to your runway, key up the landline to KRAP and tell them to send the Delta around. Hit them with a flashing red while you're at it.

Responsibility is squarely on the pilots but man, at least three controllers could have intervened on this.
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JO7110.65W says -
3−1−12. VISUALLY SCANNING RUNWAYS
a. Local controllers must visually scan runways to
the maximum extent possible.
b. Ground control must assist local control in
visually scanning runways, especially when runways
are in close proximity to other movement areas.
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- but I can't find anything specifically addresses monitoring the airspace.
 
kkoran said:
JO7110.65W says -

- but I can't find anything specifically addresses monitoring the airspace.
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2-10-3 Tower Team Position Responsibilities.

LC is required to scan the tower cab environment. Tower cab environment is their delegated airspace / surface area.

Just to clear. I'm not blaming this on the controllers involved. The investigation should analyze all possible factors including nitpicking controller responsibilities. If I were working RAPCON or either tower, I would at least take a hard look at my routine and wonder what I could have done better. All of us should take that approach to our duties in aviation.
 
Velocity173 said:
2-10-3 Tower Team Position Responsibilities.

LC is required to scan the tower cab environment. Tower cab environment is their delegated airspace / surface area.

Just to clear. I'm not blaming this on the controllers involved. The investigation should analyze all possible factors including nitpicking controller responsibilities. If I were working RAPCON or either tower, I would at least take a hard look at my routine and wonder what I could have done better. All of us should take that approach to our duties in aviation.
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Well put
 
Some of you retired airline guys need to get in touch with the ATC Memes guys. They have the players to be the controllers. Just need a cockpit crew.
 
MCAS Camp Pendleton and Oceanside Muni have this issue. Happens a lot.
 
luvflyin said:
Here's another one. Not an airliner. Check out KNLC and 3O8. Yup, someone headin to Harris Ranch for a $100 steak did it.
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How the )&$k can one make THAT mistake.

I'm usually more worried about the 8' wide runway and clipping the stoplight on short final to 14.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
A TWA DC-9 landed at Craig KCAG instead of Hayden KHDN on clear and a million day. Two Captains in the cockpit which was SOP back in the day. Had to lighten up and hop to KHDN to gas up.

Cheers
 
Tampico Trauma said:
How the )&$k can one make THAT mistake.

I'm usually more worried about the 8' wide runway and clipping the stoplight on short final to 14.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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Umm, if it's only 8 feet, it's not the runway....

Harris Ranch is narrow, but not THAT narrow. 30 feet according to air nav.

Of course, Lemoore is 200 feet wide, and one would think any idiot could tell the difference.
 
When I flew into KRAP, I saw numerous warnings about Ellsworth. The ATIS was very clear as well. So I as on high alert.

Thst said, I saw Ellsworth way before I ever saw KRAP. I can see how the mistake would be made.
 
Maybe if they carried sectionals they could determine their ass from a hole in the ground. Where is each airport in relation to the city? I just flew in there last week and spent a couple days there and there was absolutely no way I would ever mistake Ellsworth for Rapid City. You need to have the IQ of an earthworm to mistake the two.
"I'm a big time airline pilot, I don't gotta look at no sectionals, I got me an FMS"

No, you are FMS, Futher Mucking Stupid
 
MAKG1 said:
Umm, if it's only 8 feet, it's not the runway....

Harris Ranch is narrow, but not THAT narrow. 30 feet according to air nav.

Of course, Lemoore is 200 feet wide, and one would think any idiot could tell the difference.
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Not to mention 2 runways, 13,000 feet long, approach and centerline lights. This happened at night.
 
EdFred said:
Maybe if they carried sectionals they could determine their ass from a hole in the ground. Where is each airport in relation to the city? I just flew in there last week and spent a couple days there and there was absolutely no way I would ever mistake Ellsworth for Rapid City. You need to have the IQ of an earthworm to mistake the two.
"I'm a big time airline pilot, I don't gotta look at no sectionals, I got me an FMS"

No, you are FMS, Futher Mucking Stupid
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I think the Delta aircraft travels a touch faster than your Comanche ;) At those higher speeds I imagine they have a bit less time to decide if the airport they see is the airport theyre going to. Once they see an airport I can imagine it being fairly easy to fixate on it.
 
Mtns2Skies said:
I think the Delta aircraft travels a touch faster than your Comanche ;) At those higher speeds I imagine they have a bit less time to decide if the airport they see is the airport theyre going to. Once they see an airport I can imagine it being fairly easy to fixate on it.
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One strip is NE of town, and has the base infrastructure next to it which is PLAINLY visible from 50+ miles away - probably even close to 100. The other is SE of town and has nothing next to it - and yet they still landed at the wrong one. Like I said, maybe if they decided to look at a sectional instead of being a button pushing monkey they might have recognized it with plenty of time to figure out they weren't auditioning to play Arnie Grape.

Also, even if they don't look at a sectional, where's that crossing runway at the wrong airport? How about that everything at RAP is on the west side of the field, while at RCA it's on the east side?

So much for that 1500 rule.
 
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EdFred said:
Since when is 45 minutes before sunset night?
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It was just AFTER local sunset. The ground track looks as though they passed abeam RAP right at sunset, and the sun would have been behind the airport.

Still should be obvious with normal cross-checks.
 
MAKG1 said:
It was just AFTER local sunset. The ground track looks as though they passed abeam RAP right at sunset, and the sun would have been behind the airport.

Still should be obvious with normal cross-checks.
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News article said 7:45
Sunset is around 8:30
 
I shouldn't have expected a news article to get things right. But there's still plenty of vis at that time, plus a metric crap ton of visual clues to indicate something isn't right. I guess 91.103 doesn't apply to pilots once they get an ATP.
 
EdFred said:
I shouldn't have expected a news article to get things right. But there's still plenty of vis at that time, plus a metric crap ton of visual clues to indicate something isn't right. I guess 91.103 doesn't apply to pilots once they get an ATP.
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Indeed. Including the runway numbers that the pilots had to read back.

I can't begin to understand how this might happen. Maybe at a nontowered airport with a solo student pilot. But an airliner with an experienced crew flying under instrument flight rules?
 
MAKG1 said:
Umm, if it's only 8 feet, it's not the runway....

Harris Ranch is narrow, but not THAT narrow. 30 feet according to air nav.

Of course, Lemoore is 200 feet wide, and one would think any idiot could tell the difference.
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Pardon my facetiousness. It is pretty damn narrow with no taxiway... it's an interesting strip for a first timer/low timer.
 
EdFred said:
Maybe if they carried sectionals they could determine their ass from a hole in the ground. Where is each airport in relation to the city? I just flew in there last week and spent a couple days there and there was absolutely no way I would ever mistake Ellsworth for Rapid City. You need to have the IQ of an earthworm to mistake the two.
"I'm a big time airline pilot, I don't gotta look at no sectionals, I got me an FMS"

No, you are FMS, Futher Mucking Stupid
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Your solution is to carry a sectional? Really? GMAFB.
 
Sluggo63 said:
Your solution is to carry a sectional? Really? GMAFB.
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I had a sectional and found the correct airport just fine not 3 days earlier. Then again I like to make myself familiar with my destination before going there. Something your 121 brothers are obviously too stupid to be able to figure out on their own.

What's your simple solution for ATP stupidity? Oh, you don't have one because you're too good for sectionals now that you burn jet a? Should have figure as much.
 
SkyHog said:
When I flew into KRAP, I saw numerous warnings about Ellsworth. The ATIS was very clear as well. So I as on high alert.

Thst said, I saw Ellsworth way before I ever saw KRAP. I can see how the mistake would be made.
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They don't have an ATIS and the ASOS most definitely does not have a warning about RCA.

EdFred said:
One strip is NE of town, and has the base infrastructure next to it which is PLAINLY visible from 50+ miles away - probably even close to 100. The other is SE of town and has nothing next to it - and yet they still landed at the wrong one. Like I said, maybe if they decided to look at a sectional instead of being a button pushing monkey they might have recognized it with plenty of time to figure out they weren't auditioning to play Arnie Grape.

Also, even if they don't look at a sectional, where's that crossing runway at the wrong airport? How about that everything at RAP is on the west side of the field, while at RCA it's on the east side?

So much for that 1500 rule.
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A little uppity, no? The reason Ellsworth is commonly mistaken for RAP is because of its visibility. It's pretty rare I see an airport with the approximate correct layout 25+ miles away and say "Oh, I should look for a harder airport to find". I live here and still see Ellsworth first most of the time... granted I can see RAP waaaaay farther out than most because of my familiarity with the area, but especially coming from the north/northeast Ellsowrth is so much easier to see.

No matter what you think, this COULD happen to you. No one is immune from a mistake. I may not land at Ellsworth because I'm familiar, but I can sure flub up somewhere else.
 
The reason it's mistaken is because people are morons and don't familiarize themselves with the area.

"I burn Jet-A, I don't have tofamiliarize myself with the area, I just have to get close because I'm a big time jet driver."

They are funtional idiots, and deserve to be addressed as such. I came in from the West, and knew KRCA was bigger, knew it would be more visible, and knew where it was in relation to the city. Why did I know this? Because I looked at a ****ing SECTIONAL before I went. Enroutes don't show the city, the approach plates don't show the city, but guess what does. The lowly sectional - which is apparently beneath some people.

It *may* happen to me somewhere, but I doubt it because I do my own flight planning, I get a visual picture of the whole area including satellite views, and I'm not too good to ignore the simple things that are below me.
 
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