X-Country vs 50 Mile X-Country

Discussion in 'Flight Following' started by Ventucky Red, Jun 3, 2019.

  1. Ventucky Red

    Ventucky Red Line Up and Wait

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    Ok.... even I can understand the the rules for the Over 50 NM mile X-Country... you fly more than fifty nautical miles from your home airport that is a 50 mile X-country.... As I understand the specific requirements for the initial rating and additional ratings...

    Now here is the question.. lets say take off from KOQN and land at KILG 18 nm away... does the constitute a X-country? And can I log it? My reason for asking is that in my new log book, there are two columns under X-country one for ALL and one for over 50 NM and I was wondering why that is... in doing some research, this what I found...

    Cross-country time means—

    (i) Except as provided in paragraphs (ii) through (vi) of this definition, time acquired during flight—
    (A) Conducted by a person who holds a pilot certificate;
    (B) Conducted in an aircraft;
    (C) That includes a landing at a point other than the point of departure; and
    (D) That involves the use of dead reckoning, pilotage, electronic navigation aids, radio aids, or other navigation systems to navigate to the landing point.

    There does not seem to be a distance requirement for this...
     
  2. Ryanb

    Ryanb Touchdown! Greaser! PoA Supporter

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    Technically it would be. My logbook also has these two columns.

    If you land somewhere other than your departure point it’s technically a XC flight, per the reg, but it’s pretty meaningless nonetheless and doesn’t count for anything.
     
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  3. dmspilot

    dmspilot En-Route

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    If you have a column for each one you might as well use them, I guess. But cross-country time less than 50nm is not very useful, unless you're a sport-pilot student. edit: or want a Part 135 job, as mondtster reminded me.
     
    Last edited: Jun 3, 2019
  4. 1anG

    1anG Pre-Flight

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    61.1 defines cross country as being 50 miles straight line distance but for the purpose of gaining experience.

    So your 17 mile cross country can be considered cross country, and the 50nm part is just to count for aeronotical experience cross countries[​IMG]
     
  5. mondtster

    mondtster En-Route

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    It's not meaningless if you're trying to earn the cross country time required for 135 operations.
     
  6. benyflyguy

    benyflyguy Pattern Altitude

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  7. Clip4

    Clip4 En-Route

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    It depends if you are logging the flight to meet experience requirements for a certificate or rating.
     
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  8. Ryanb

    Ryanb Touchdown! Greaser! PoA Supporter

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    A fair point.
     
  9. texasclouds

    texasclouds Cleared for Takeoff

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    18 nm would be considered Cross County per FAR 123.4(z)
     
  10. apr911

    apr911 Pre-takeoff checklist

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    There are 7 different classifications of Cross-Country, most are defined under 61.1 section B.

    1) Legal - Any trip to another airport
    2) Sport Pilot - trips >25NM
    3) Private/Instrument/Commercial - trips >50NM
    4) ATP - trips that fly but dont necessarily land >50NM away from departure airport
    5) Military - trips that fly but dont necessarily land >50NM away from departure airport (this meets the PPL/IRA/CPL requirements for military personnel only)
    6) Small Islands - 61.111 exception permitting issuance of a restricted certificate on the basis of shorter cross-countries necessitated by lack of airports
    7) Part 135 PIC - Uses the legal definition of any trip that flies to another airport other than the origin.

    Source
     
  11. RudyP

    RudyP Line Up and Wait

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    What exactly is that last item (D) meant to exclude? Arriving somewhere by accident? I think it would be pretty challenging to start and finish a flight that doesn't involve even a little bit of one of those things...
     
  12. EdFred

    EdFred Touchdown! Greaser! PoA Supporter

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    Prevents logging XC time as a safety pilot PIC. The pilot flying is doing all of those things, but the safety pilot isn't.

    The funny thing is, I have had a couple flights where I didn't use any of those things and landed at other airports. Was just out flying without worrying about heading or where I was, looked down, "Oh, there's an airport, wonder which one that is? No X's on the runways, I'll land."

    I logged it as XC anyway.
     
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  13. RudyP

    RudyP Line Up and Wait

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    Impressive counterpoint!

    Doesn't pilotage/dead reckoning pretty much mean looking out the window for landmarks to use as reference though? Hard to fly a pattern and land on designated pavement without doing some of that? The language says "involves the use of...[snip]... to navigate to the landing point"

    I'm just being pedantic though, not really arguing with you. It just struck me as a pretty useless clause.
     
  14. EdFred

    EdFred Touchdown! Greaser! PoA Supporter

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    I'm not so sure that being above the airport when I initially see it qualifies as navigation/pilotage. But, there are some really tiny angels out there!!
     
  15. brcase

    brcase Pattern Altitude

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    The OP is correct, the 50nm requirement is only for experience toward private, commercial, and instrument ratings. The Op’s Quoted definition can be used for most other cross country experience requirements, Usually toward the 500hrs required for an ATP rating.

    Brian
    CFIIIG/ASEL
     
  16. SkyDog58

    SkyDog58 Touchdown! Greaser! PoA Supporter

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    So what is a point of departure and what qualifies as a point other than that? Is a different runway at the same airport a different point? After all, the FAA didn’t say a different airport.

    What if I takeoff from an airport such as Lake Norman Airpark (14A) in an amphib and 30 seconds later land it on the lake. Is that a cross country? Definitely a different point than I took off from, right?

    :dunno:

    As for me and my logbook with a single cross country column, I only count ones > 50nm.
     
  17. WannFly

    WannFly En-Route

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    I did a couple of those, they are fun
     
  18. Skyrys62

    Skyrys62 En-Route PoA Supporter

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    "includes a point of landing that was at least a straight line distance of more than 50nm from the original point of departure"

    Technically, this language indicates it does NOT have to be your first landing point. It can be any landing point in the trip, as long as one of them is more than 50nm straight line from original departure point.

    Seems I've heard otherwise in the past.
    Is that correct?
     
  19. EdFred

    EdFred Touchdown! Greaser! PoA Supporter

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    That is correct. You could land every five miles, and as long as one of those places is further than 50 miles from where you started, it's XC time that counts towards a certificate.
     
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  20. 455 Bravo Uniform

    455 Bravo Uniform En-Route PoA Supporter

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    What rating requires solo XC hours to be denoted, Commercial? Or did I dream that? If so, use the extra column and write “S” for solo XC.
     
  21. WannFly

    WannFly En-Route

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    I think the only one requiring solo is commercial for some odd reason. I have a excel file that I maintain that has all XC over 50 nm separately documented and has a identifier for whether it was solo or not, just for the heck of it
     
  22. apr911

    apr911 Pre-takeoff checklist

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    The FAA grants a lot of leeway in how you log the individual legs of your flight and ultimately leaves it to pilot's discretion.

    You can reposition (that is start a new flight) with each landing or consider it all part of 1 long flight. For the purposes of cross-countries in general, most people apply a "total straight line distance" but when it comes to the long leg in the cross countries for PPL/CPL under parts 61.109/61.129, I think most people apply a "single-leg" straight line distance. The FAR's do seem to make a distinction for those cross countries as they do not say "total straight line distance" but rather just say "straight line distance"
     
  23. apr911

    apr911 Pre-takeoff checklist

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    Only your PPL requires a specific requirement of "solo XC hours."
    Your CPL does however have a long "solo XC" distance requirement though technically you can do it with an instructor.
     
  24. WannFly

    WannFly En-Route

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    there are VERY long debate threads about doing the long XC for commercial with a CFI onboard on this forum
     
  25. apr911

    apr911 Pre-takeoff checklist

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    There is, and at risk of turning into one of those "its plain english" people (which I absolutely despise) when talking about the regulations, the regulation does specifically state solo flight time or PIC flight time with a CFI.

    Whether the CFI flight time should be allowed or not and how that fits in with the legal intent is a different issue altogether.
     
  26. TRocket

    TRocket Line Up and Wait

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    As far as the FAA is concerned, any kind of "Cross Country" that is required for a rating is defined as 50 nm miles or more, any other kind of cross country it doesn't matter, if not for a rating it doesn't matter. You can pretty much log anything you want as long as it isn't required for a certificate or rating. Only then do the FAA parameters really matter.
     
  27. unsafervguy

    unsafervguy Pattern Altitude

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    Except for an atp, the 50 miles does not apply for the atp cross country requirement.
     
  28. midlifeflyer

    midlifeflyer Touchdown! Greaser!

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    The greater than 50 miles does apply to the ATP. The requirement for a remote landing doesn't. Read it and yo'll see.
     
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  29. midlifeflyer

    midlifeflyer Touchdown! Greaser!

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    Not quite. Point-to-point cross countries (50 nm or less with a landing) counts toward some other privileges, Part 135 qualification cross country minimums being the primary one people care about. It's the reason career-oriented pilots will often have two cross country columns; they want to track both for that first job.
     
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  30. midlifeflyer

    midlifeflyer Touchdown! Greaser!

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    ...if you do all commercial qualifying solo hours (the cross country is not the only one) using "substitute solo" ("performing the duties of pilot in command ... with an authorized instructor on board").
     
  31. apr911

    apr911 Pre-takeoff checklist

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    61.1 is badly formatted but under the Cross-Country section is 61.1 (B) VI which is the applicable paragraph/portion for ATP. It states:
    (vi) For the purpose of meeting the aeronautical experience requirements for an airline transport pilot certificate (except with a rotorcraft category rating), time acquired during a flight -
    (A) Conducted in an appropriate aircraft;
    (B) That is at least a straight-line distance of more than 50 nautical miles from the original point of departure; and
    (C) That involves the use of dead reckoning, pilotage, electronic navigation aids, radio aids, or other navigation systems.

    Note the difference between 61.1 (B) VI for ATP and 61.1 (B) II for PPL/IRA/CPL which states:

    (ii) For the purpose of meeting the aeronautical experience requirements (except for a rotorcraft category rating), for a private pilot certificate (except for a powered parachute category rating), a commercial pilot certificate, or an instrument rating, or for the purpose of exercising recreational pilot privileges (except in a rotorcraft) under § 61.101 (c), time acquired during a flight -
    (A) Conducted in an appropriate aircraft;
    (B) That includes a point of landing that was at least a straight-line distance of more than 50 nautical miles from the original point of departure; and
    (C) That involves the use of dead reckoning, pilotage, electronic navigation aids, radio aids, or other navigation systems to navigate to the landing point.

    It is also different from 61.1 (B) I which is the minimum definition of a cross-country and is the one applied to experience requirements under Part 135 and states:
    (i) Except as provided in paragraphs (ii) through (vi) of this definition, time acquired during flight -
    (A) Conducted by a person who holds a pilot certificate;
    (B) Conducted in an aircraft;
    (C) That includes a landing at a point other than the point of departure; and
    (D) That involves the use of dead reckoning, pilotage, electronic navigation aids, radio aids, or other navigation systems to navigate to the landing point.


    61.1 (B) I requires a landing but does not require you to fly 50NM from your point of origin
    61.1(B)VI does not require landing but does require you to fly at least 50 NM from your point of origin
    61.1(B)II requires both a landing and the landing be 50NM from your point of origin.

    The most common ways hours are accumulated under the ATP definition for this would be military flights, pipeline patrols, banner towing and site-seeing tours (Grand Canyon, Hudson SFRA, etc) but other scenarios also exist/are possible.

    Note the definition applied under 61.1(B)VI towards an ATP currently matches the definition used for military pilots seeking a CPL under 61.1(B)VII.
     
    Last edited: Jun 9, 2019
  32. dmspilot

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    How about quoting the regulation that does apply instead of one that doesn't. :rolleyes:
     
  33. unsafervguy

    unsafervguy Pattern Altitude

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    I stand corrected. i missed that change to 61.1 and i have no excuse for missing it as it appears it was changed a while a go.
     
  34. midlifeflyer

    midlifeflyer Touchdown! Greaser!

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    A long, long, long while ago.
     
    Last edited: Jun 10, 2019