Would you VFR night fly with these simple instruments?

texasclouds

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Mark
I’m considering a C-170A for my first owned plane and found one with a very basic VFR instrument package. Do people actually night fly with only these below?:

vertical compass, airspeed, turn coordinator, compass, altimeter, tach, VSI. Single comm radio with flip flop, no nav radio or gps.

I have 235 hrs TT in the following 172S, 172M, 150M, 162, PA-28R, 7GCBC. Majority in the 172 and 150.
 
For night VFR, unless there was bright moonlight or I was only flying over well lit terrain (i.e. a city), I would want a minimum two independent gyros. I suppose a portable (such as a Stratux with AHRS, or a Dynon Pocketpanel) would suffice for one of them.
 
I’m considering a C-170A for my first owned plane and found one with a very basic VFR instrument package. Do people actually night fly with only these below?:

vertical compass, airspeed, turn coordinator, compass, altimeter, tach, VSI. Single comm radio with flip flop, no nav radio or gps.

I have 235 hrs TT in the following 172S, 172M, 150M, 162, PA-28R, 7GCBC. Majority in the 172 and 150.

Depends on when and where. Without an artificial horizon, I would limit myself to nights and places where a reliable ‘visual’ horizon is available. Like cities
 
There's night VFR flying and then there's "night VFR flying". Sightseeing over the city enjoying the lights on a nice summer evening, or flying cross country following a well lit corridor (such as a major highway) no problem. Flying out over a sparsely populated black hole in a single engine piston airplane, no way.

Way back when I was a young pup pilot I remember an FAA statistic that showed the night VFR fatality rate in an accident was six times the day VFR fatality rate. That statistic stuck.
 
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I'm around your experience level and an instrument student ready for the checkride. Without an attitude indicator, heck no. That's my opinion.
 
I'm around your experience level and an instrument student ready for the checkride. Without an attitude indicator, heck no. That's my opinion.
I’m also waiting for my IR checkride. Ideally I get a plane with IFR gadgets, but this is a pretty clean plane. I’m worried a simple package like this could be dangerous if I end up coming in late one evening or some inadvertent IMC. However, 95% of my current flight time has been day VFR in 3000’+ ceilings. I have come in after dark several times by accident. Our rental agreement wants us back at sundown and before tower closes 9pm.

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In the right kind of night VFR, and in a semi populated area, yes I would fly it at night. Meaning that I myself would fly that 170, you may be a different story.
Remember, with what you've got in that 170, it's just needle ball and airspeed, not ideal for IFR.

That's a nice looking VFR fun plane.
 
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This is a good read:

https://www.aopa.org/training-and-safety/students/crosscountry/skills/night-flying

“Pilots in many countries must have an instrument rating to fly at night. Many pilots believe this is a good idea because flying at night can be as close to instrument flying as you can get in visual conditions. And the potential for unwittingly flying from visual to instrument meteorological conditions (IMC) is at its greatest.”
 
I'm with the others. It depends where and when. City flight on a clear night, no problem. Sparse areas or marginal conditions, perhaps a different story.

Go to the AIM. Read the section on night visual illusions. Consider the FAA's old "moonless night" letter that certain conditions may be loggable as "actual" instrument time. Consider that one of the only "CFI blamed when only a passenger" NTSB reports I've ever seen involves marginal conditions with no attitude indicator.

Does the PFD on your EFB suffice? How reliable has that been proven to be the many times you have used it to become proficient? Is that enough for your personal minimums?

Make your decisions accordingly.
 
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I’m also waiting for my IR checkride. Ideally I get a plane with IFR gadgets, but this is a pretty clean plane. I’m worried a simple package like this could be dangerous if I end up coming in late one evening or some inadvertent IMC. However, 95% of my current flight time has been day VFR in 3000’+ ceilings. I have come in after dark several times by accident. Our rental agreement wants us back at sundown and before tower closes 9pm.

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That's a very pretty airplane!
 
I disagree with many here. Even on a moonlit night, or over a well let area, there are moments where you’re just not going to have a good horizon. The moment after takeoff is a great example: you’re pitched up well above the horizon, you’ve just left the airport environment so your night vision may have been spoiled by runway lights, lights from other aircraft, vehicles, etc. Not a good time for spatial disorientation.

I’m of the opinion that if I won’t fly through clouds with my instruments, I’m not going to fly at night with them either.
 
Would I fly that 140 at night? Local city flight to see the sights, sure. Night VFR cross-country with the possibility for clouds, no city lights, and possible unfamiliar area, no way.
 
I’m also waiting for my IR checkride. Ideally I get a plane with IFR gadgets, but this is a pretty clean plane. I’m worried a simple package like this could be dangerous if I end up coming in late one evening or some inadvertent IMC. However, 95% of my current flight time has been day VFR in 3000’+ ceilings. I have come in after dark several times by accident. Our rental agreement wants us back at sundown and before tower closes 9pm.

View attachment 78462 View attachment 78463

Wow! That's a really lovely 170.
Even if you avoided IMC and restricted night flying to favorable conditions, you could still have a lot of fun flying that plane!
 
I would, but I’d be comfortable flying IMC with that panel. I’d prefer a Turn & Bank, however.
 
I would, but I’d be comfortable flying IMC with that panel. I’d prefer a Turn & Bank, however.
You’d be comfortable flying IMC without an AI? You must have exceptional partial panel skills.
 
I disagree with many here. Even on a moonlit night, or over a well let area, there are moments where you’re just not going to have a good horizon. The moment after takeoff is a great example: you’re pitched up well above the horizon, you’ve just left the airport environment so your night vision may have been spoiled by runway lights, lights from other aircraft, vehicles, etc. Not a good time for spatial disorientation.

This. I'd be uncomfortable flying at night with that panel without an AI. In a pinch, Foreflight with a Stratus will provide a panel page but I wouldn't choose to put myself in that position without a really, really persuasive reason.
 
You’d be comfortable flying IMC without an AI? You must have exceptional partial panel skills.
Either you have partial panel proficiency or you don’t. If it’s your backup plan when you fly with a full panel, you need to be proficient at it.
 
I disagree with many here. Even on a moonlit night, or over a well let area, there are moments where you’re just not going to have a good horizon. The moment after takeoff is a great example: you’re pitched up well above the horizon, you’ve just left the airport environment so your night vision may have been spoiled by runway lights, lights from other aircraft, vehicles, etc. Not a good time for spatial disorientation.

I’m of the opinion that if I won’t fly through clouds with my instruments, I’m not going to fly at night with them either.

I would even go so far as to say you can be in legal daytime VFR and be in, for all intents and purposes, IMC under the right conditions. Three miles visibility at 10K can cause your horizon to disappear in a hurry.

It's happened to me.
 
As I have stated on similar questions, it is a matter of identifying and mitigating risk.
Would I fly at night with an an aircraft equipped with only a TC?

Are you instrument rated? Are you current with using a TC to control an aircraft in IMC?
What is the mission? Are you proposing pattern work or flight to another airport 20 miles away or a longer XC.
What is the terrain and population in your area? Will ground lighting help define an horizon?
What is your weather minimums?
 
I landed after dark in a '46 Luscombe with no electrics and less panel than that. It was not an experience that I would care to repeat. After landing, contacted ground and asked for taxi to spot 14. "I would if I knew where you were". I pointed a flashlight at the tower and got my taxi instructions.

I learned early on that flying at night over the Everglades, you had better be comfortable with instrument flying. I was working on my IR and I was. Needless to say, you better have the instruments to do it. And I don't mean "partial panel".

However, folks have been flying around in craft like that for decades and I would be happy to fly it. You just have to be more flexible and ready to put down anywhere, and I do mean anywhere, rather that fly into "inadvertent IMC" or moonless dark.

I have a fantastic VHS tape by Duane Cole, one of my favorites out of a collection of over 600 tapes. Cole flew to airshows all over the country in such a basic a/c. He tells of putting down in farmers' fields innumerable times.

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PS, read the back of that tape by probably one of the finest and most-experienced VFR cross-country pilots of the recent era and see what he says about single-engine night and imagine what he might say about night in that a/c.
 
It is a 170, not 140, but the lack of a backup to the one gyro is a no go for me. I have done plenty of partial with only turn and bank, comfortable with that. In my many years of flight, I have had about 4 gyro failures while flying. With 3 gyro's, that is a non event.

At less than 200 hours in my logbook, I flew into zero visibility at 7,500 feet on V3 west of Richmond Va. The forecast was 12,000 overcast, 10 miles viz below, from 3 separate briefings, 3 hours apart, 3 widely separate FSS's, one face to face. That leg of the trip was 2 hours after sundown. Failure of the single gyro would have been a disaster, but with 3, no worries.
At 3,500, out of the wet snow, in rain, and VFR again, all went fine. Visdibility was way less than 10 miles, but ground lights were there to see. I coordinated my descent with ATC, no clearance allowed for VFR flights, but nice to know for sure that there were no planes below me. Stayed centered on V3, wings level, and standard rate descent, no sweat. My instructor had gone above and beyond in my voluntary instrument training.


Back to that beautify example of Cessna 170's, perfect for a second plane for someone who can afford to keep it in a hanger for daytime flying, in perfect weather, it is a classic museum piece. Adding modern electronics to the panel would destroy much of its present value. That full size clock is a rare device in a general aviation aircraft, I have never seen one before.

The hand held electronic devices could be used for synthetic gyro instruments, but my trust in them is shaky, mine do go blank at inopportune times, plus, you would need a separate power supply with sufficient duration to cover at least twice the endurance of the fuel tanks. The only aircraft that I have flown with less instrumentation were the Piper J3's with no electricity, and no gyro's.

If yu do buy that plane, I would love a flight in it!
 
Duane Cole was one of my favorite air show performers, and his take on safely flying cross country is top notch. His judgement impeccable. No better advice out there.
 
If I can be forgiven for rephrasing your question, let me put it this way. Should I let get-there-itis lead me into flying this airplane later into the evening than would be advisable or into deteriorating weather conditions?

That is not meant to be an opinion or judgment on your aviation decision management skills.
 
You got me. Why is it not relevant? I don't know what game you're trying to play this time.
You’re asking what my second layer of backup is like everyone should know that more than one is required, and then say two isn’t necessary.
 
You’re asking what my second layer of backup is like everyone should know that more than one is required, and then say two isn’t necessary.

What do you mean "second layer of backup"? If you're in IMC with one gyro, you do not have a backup.
 
Doing the kind of night flying I’ve done- clear or nearly clear nights in the Midwest I don’t consider night flying that exciting or dangerous. Maybe because an any decent cruising altitude you’ll see multiple airport beacons and there are more than enough lights/towns to not need an artificial horizon. The lack of nav would bother me more, too easy to confuse some close together airports but I guess with an EFB no big deal.

I can understand how in some unpopulated areas one might lose the horizon with no lights on the ground but I’m instrument rated and have flown some IMC. Night VFR is not IMC by a long shot anywhere that has even a sparse rural population. I guess maybe if you inadvertently flew into a cloud because it’s night and you can’t see it but then that’s actual IMC isn’t it.
 
What do you mean "second layer of backup"? If you're in IMC with one gyro, you do not have a backup.
The first layer of backup is when Plan A fails and I find myself flying in IMC on needle, ball, and airspeed. The second layer is what you’re asking about...failures both Plan A and Plan B.
 
The first layer of backup is when Plan A fails and I find myself flying in IMC on needle, ball, and airspeed. The second layer is what you’re asking about...failures both Plan A and Plan B.

You stated: "I’d be comfortable flying IMC with that panel."
 
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