Worth keeping electric TC

Discussion in 'Avionics and Upgrades' started by WannFly, Nov 8, 2017.

  1. WannFly

    WannFly En-Route

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    Hypothically speaking, if I get a dual g5 setup... is it worth it to keep the electric TC, just for the heck of It? In case of total electrical failure, that's of no use; if the G5 AI take a dump, the HSI has revisionary capabilities... any particular benefit if I keep the electric TC?

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  2. Clark1961

    Clark1961 Touchdown! Greaser!

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    It depends on your instrument training. If you grow up AI dependent then no the turn coordinator is not particularly useful. If you grow up on airspeed, altitude, and TC then you'll keep it like I did.
     
  3. Ravioli

    Ravioli Final Approach

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    Since he's got a wet PPL right now, there's no need to think about how he flys IFR.

    Better to stop staring at the panel for stuffs to change, spend some money on 100LL, and when you do start thinking about changes think in terms of failure modes and redundancy.

    Meanwhile, fly a lot and have fun.
     
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  4. Clark1961

    Clark1961 Touchdown! Greaser!

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    The guy is in Nodak where it's dark 14 hours a day and the wind howls across the prairie. Winter flying is a hit-n-miss thing. All he can do is dream about Kate and what he'd like to do to her.
     
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  5. WannFly

    WannFly En-Route

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    Spot on

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  6. Ryanb

    Ryanb Final Approach PoA Supporter

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    I love the G5. Recently got one installed in one of our club airplanes. Packs quite a few features for its size.

    When you begin flying IFR, it will be a nice addition. As for now, I wouldn’t worry too much about it. You’re VFR 100% of the time, so a standard six pack will serve their purpose just fine.
     
  7. bnt83

    bnt83 Final Approach

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    http://static.garmin.com/pumac/190-01112-10_10.pdf

    upload_2017-11-8_19-38-12.png
     
  8. Clark1961

    Clark1961 Touchdown! Greaser!

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  9. bnt83

    bnt83 Final Approach

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    I can see substituting an attitude indicator in lieu of a TC but there better be something there or I wouldn't be signing it of.

    VSI thing is weird but again, its required per the manual.
     
  10. Clark1961

    Clark1961 Touchdown! Greaser!

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    Yup, two AIs and a slip/skid ball meet requirements...but not according to Garmin. I'm guessing a liability thing.
     
  11. WannFly

    WannFly En-Route

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    I am starting IFR in spring. Not that with 6 pack I can't learn it, but might as well learn in something I will be using. Point to note, I am not getting rid of the vacuum system, so 6 pack or 5 pack still stays

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  12. WannFly

    WannFly En-Route

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    Keeping the AI as primary, moving it to TC position, the G5 AI will replace the TC. So TC is legally not required, but I can keep it if it gives me any redundancy. That's what I am trying to figure out, do i get any redundancy at all ? Or is it just sitting there and drawing power

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  13. Clark1961

    Clark1961 Touchdown! Greaser!

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    It is redundancy if you learn to fly airspeed, altitude, heading (TC backup). If you don't learn that method then not much reason to keep it.

    If you look at institutional training the Air Force embraces the AI and relegates the TC to the bottom of the panel if it's even there. I think most jets go this direction. No TC on systems these day. Of course they have lots of redundancy.

    Me? they can have my TC when they pry it from my cold, dead hands. I think the AI is secretly planning to kill me...(not paranoid, really! but I don't discuss this with my AME).
     
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  14. MajorTurbulence

    MajorTurbulence Pre-takeoff checklist

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    My TC died recently and I had to decide whether to replace or put in something else. I have an ASPEN and my vacuum AI is in the panel as my backup and needed for the autopilot. There was not much else I could put in the empty hole that would make sense. I am used to the TC for its standard rate info during IFR turns and as a third backup in the unlikely loss of both AIs, and replacements are not very expensive. So I put in a rebuilt TC, and it feels just like home except for the small manufacturers insignia which is amazingly noticeable as different in my scan.
     
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  15. Ryan F.

    Ryan F. Line Up and Wait

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    I ditched mine. I have two vacuum powered ADIs in addition to the G5. There was no reason to keep the turn coordinator.

    The G5 includes a ROT (rate of turn) indicator as well as slip/skid indication (ball) so you're really not giving anything up by eliminating the turn coordinator. I wasn't sorry to see mine go.

    In terms of redundancy, if you had your choice, of course you'd want to back up your G5 with a second attitude indicator. That's a no-brainer.
     
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  16. Clark1961

    Clark1961 Touchdown! Greaser!

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    Interesting choice. Do you have a wet pump or a backup vacuum source?
     
  17. Ryan F.

    Ryan F. Line Up and Wait

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    It's an old choice, going back to 2002. I have a twin, so I have two dry vac pumps. At that time I had only the single vacuum ADI, and was concerned about redundancy. Even though I had two vac pumps, the ADI itself was still a single point-of-failure, and the turn coordinator is a lousy backup when the SHTF.

    In 2003, the only reasonably economical electric ADI backup cost $2k and had a reported MTBF of about 100 hours. It looked like it would be a lot of money and effort to keep it running. So I got a field approval to plumb my vacuum system and install a second air-powered ADI on the right side of the panel. It's been a good system for a lot of years. Nowadays it's a bit impractical thanks to the G5 and its low-cost brethren.

    Since a G5 HSI is in my airplane's near future, there's going to be a lot of redundancy even without the secondary vacuum ADI so whenever it goes Tango Uniform, I'll just ditch it and put something more useful over there.
     
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  18. arnoha

    arnoha Cleared for Takeoff

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    Interesting. I've got this on my plate to think about right now, too...

    Got an HI that looks like it may be headed south. Around an AMU to overhaul that thing. The AI is around an AMU to overhaul, too. They each seem to last a couple years, so there's an AMU+ a year keeping them running. Then there's the vacuum pumps. Two of those and they last a couple years, so there's another AMU+ a year. Plus inspections. So, spending, say, 2.5 AMU a year on the vacuum instruments. Wouldn't take many years to pay for a dual G5 setup. What are you guys paying for a pair, installed?
     
  19. bnt83

    bnt83 Final Approach

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    Is the direction gyro part of an autopilot?

    Do you have a panel mounted garmin gps or Garmin GTX 3x5 with internal GPS for a positioning source? (If not then you'll most likely be installing a GPS antenna)
     
  20. CC268

    CC268 En-Route

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    Aircraft Quality Instruments has heading indicators much cheaper
     
  21. arnoha

    arnoha Cleared for Takeoff

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    It's a KAP 140 w/Alt Select and a KLN 94 right now. The KAP 140 is staying. The KLN will be a GTN at some point. So, yeah, I know I need to retain the TC for the KAP 140. I don't know if the heading bug needs the interface unit, as I think that's the only thing the HI is feeding into the AP, but I'm not sure. I would definitely need the GPS antenna and magnetometer.
     
  22. arnoha

    arnoha Cleared for Takeoff

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    A bit cheaper, but not much. Looks like $500. Add labor and shipping and you're just short of an AMU.
     
  23. bnt83

    bnt83 Final Approach

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    The equipment alone is gonna be around $5500, two G5, GAD29B, GMU11 etc. Then paying by the hour to remove the existing vacuum equipment. My guess is you're looking at around $9k installed. (shop rate in CA can't be cheap)

    Does the 172R/S have electroluminescent panels (backlighted placards) on the breaker and switch panels? Adding beakers to those can get pricey if they get sent out and done right. ($600)
     
  24. CC268

    CC268 En-Route

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    Yea idk I just went through this with my attitude indicator...a G5 installed is pricey.
     
  25. bnt83

    bnt83 Final Approach

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    Gyros with no autopilot pickoffs are pretty cheap.
     
  26. CC268

    CC268 En-Route

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    Yea true...if you had an autopilot then maybe it makes more sense. Don’t get me wrong I would have loved to have a G5
     
  27. hindsight2020

    hindsight2020 En-Route

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    Unless you're replacing slaved-heading capabilities of the mechanical variety, I find the vacuum systems cheaper to own and replace than the G5 fad. The bias towards the shiny stuff is noted, but it's not like these electronic doodads are impervious to failure or becoming expensive boo boos outside of warranty. I've yet to encounter anywhere near a 24 month instrument failure rate on pump or pneumatic-mechanical gyros alike, in 3 airplanes and 9 years of cumulative ownership. To each their own.
     
  28. WannFly

    WannFly En-Route

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    I got quote for around 9k. But that includes moving the AI to a diff hole that I need to retain. 8 have heard from other posters moving the vacuum based AI is lot more work than taking the AI and vacuum pump out. Another pilot is doing the same setup at 8 k, he is removing his vacuum system

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  29. arnoha

    arnoha Cleared for Takeoff

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    One big difference on my plane: it's a leaseback, so it flies. Two years is 1000+ hours.

    $125/hr at local shop, which is typical around here. I use Aerial Avionics and they tend to be conservative on counted hours worked, so it's a little less painful.

    No backlight, so that's not a concern.

    Yeah, I was comparing the 1 AMU overhaul price I stated vs. the AQI price. Aerial usually uses MidContinent and they're a little pricier than AQI. I'll ask them why the preference.

    So, consensus is on the order of 9 AMU. I'm dropping into Aerial Monday or Tuesday and see what they say. Good to have a reference point.
     
  30. Ryan F.

    Ryan F. Line Up and Wait

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    I have a friend doing a dual install, removing vacuum system, going with the GAD29B and the magnetometer setup for $9.4k all in. To me that is a pretty reasonable price.
     
  31. Radar Contact

    Radar Contact Cleared for Takeoff

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    I just have the G5 AI and I moved the vacuum AI to the TC spot. I did keep my TC only because it drives my Yaw Damper. I have referenced it zero times since getting the G5. If you get a dual G5 you would have to go through both them independently failing and the failure of your vacuum AI before you'd be referencing your TC. Not a numbers guy but the probability of that happening has to be somewhere near getting hit by a unicorn while flying.

    My $0.02.
     
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