Worst Flight I've Ever Flown - Many Mistakes

I might get slammed here by the walking FAR guys, but for a certificated pilot, all you need to do is land at a different airport than you departed from to qualify as XC. It also requires the use of pilotage, radio aids etc. If its for qualifications for a rating, the arrival has to be 50 miles from the departure to qualify...

Its different for some, like rotary (25 miles)
 
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FlySince9 said:
I might get slammed here by the walking FAR guys, but for a certificated pilot, all you need to do is land at a different airport than you departed from to qualify as XC. It also requires the use of pilotage, radio aids etc. If its for qualifications for a rating, the arrival has to be 50 miles from the departure to qualify...

Its different for some, like rotary (25 miles)
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I have not personally logged any XC in my log book that doesn't meet the 50. Is this OK? I am saving for Angel Flight, IR, etc and don't have another column to put "XCs that count" and "XCs that don't count" since the tailwheel lesson took up my extra column. I think.
 
kimberlyanne546 said:
I have not personally logged any XC in my log book that doesn't meet the 50. Is this OK? I am saving for Angel Flight, IR, etc and don't have another column to put "XCs that count" and "XCs that don't count" since the tailwheel lesson took up my extra column. I think.
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I don't think Angel Flight is an issue, but if you're collecting time for the IR, you definitely fall under 61, section 1.b.3 ii it has to be 50nm between airports.
 
kimberlyanne546 said:
That is a good idea. My only requirement is that we go somewhere at least 50nm away so I can log XC time. But I still am unclear if I can / cannot log it as XC if I land at every airport on the way home. If not, then forget the 50nm rule, I just need to get to new places.
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Yep, land at as many other airports as you want, it's other airports that make it a cross country flight, not distance (there are some exceptions to this as well based on military pilots flying B2s and such half way around the world and back landing only at their base of origin). The distance part is only for those flights requiring a cross country of that distance. When you start counting up ATP X/C requirements, those mileage issues disappear from the requirements and a flight from Hayward to Palo Alto with a landing becomes a X/C.
 
Henning said:
Yep, land at as many other airports as you want, it's other airports that make it a cross country flight, not distance (there are some exceptions to this as well based on military pilots flying B2s and such half way around the world and back landing only at their base of origin). The distance part is only for those flights requiring a cross country of that distance. When you start counting up ATP X/C requirements, those mileage issues disappear from the requirements.
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Good thing I write everything in pencil. Should I go back and change even my student pilot stuff? Don't think I should since my CFI took copies of each page of my log book.

EDIT: I write everything in pen, but totals at bottom in pencil, that's what I meant.
 
kimberlyanne546 said:
Good thing I write everything in pencil. Should I go back and change even my student pilot stuff? Don't think I should since my CFI took copies of each page of my log book.

EDIT: I write everything in pen, but totals at bottom in pencil, that's what I meant.
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I'm sure Ron Levy will have something to say about changing logbook entries.

I just added a note to the existing XC column header - "> 50nm" - as that's all that I've bothered to log as XC.
Should I ever be in danger of getting an ATP, my electronic log will total the *other* XC hours (which are all in my paper log book, just not handily called out)...perhaps I'd just go with the electronic version at that point - paper will be obsolete by then.
 
kimberlyanne546 said:
That is a good idea. My only requirement is that we go somewhere at least 50nm away so I can log XC time. But I still am unclear if I can / cannot log it as XC if I land at every airport on the way home. If not, then forget the 50nm rule, I just need to get to new places.
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You could land at every airport you pass along the way, and it still wouldn't stop you from logging cross country time as long as at least one of the airports you land at is the required distance from your original point of departure. You could even do pattern work during the flight, or fly way out of your way during the flight, and it would all still count as cross country time. Here's why:

14 CFR 61.1 excerpts:

(b) For the purpose of this part...

(4) Cross-country time means...

(ii) For the purpose of meeting the aeronautical experience requirements (except for a rotorcraft category rating), for a private pilot certificate (except for a powered parachute category rating), a commercial pilot certificate, or an instrument rating, or for the purpose of exercising recreational pilot privileges (except in a rotorcraft) under §61.101 (c), time acquired during a flight—

(A) Conducted in an appropriate aircraft;

(B ) That includes a point of landing that was at least a straight-line distance of more than 50 nautical miles from the original point of departure; and

(C) That involves the use of dead reckoning, pilotage, electronic navigation aids, radio aids, or other navigation systems to navigate to the landing point...
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[emphasis added]

So if you land at ten airports during the flight, and one of them is 50 nm or more from the original point of departure, then the flight "includes a point of landing that was at least a straight-line distance of more than 50 nautical miles from the original point of departure."

Note that there's no stated requirement to take the shortest route, no prohibition on landings at other airports, and no limit on the number of landings made during the flight.

As others have mentioned, one of the sections I left out omits the 50 nm requirement for purposes other than those listed above, for example when applying for an ATP certificate, so some log books include a column for cross country time that is at least 50 nm, and another column for all cross country time regardless of distance.
 
Henning said:
It's just fine so long as you accept that your survival is mostly due to luck and the inherent reliability of our machines, because if you never fly more than 100 hrs a year, you'll never be 'good'.
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Can't disagree with you there Henning. One of the reasons I'm not in a big hurry to movie into a faster aircraft. I'm not that good, don't fly that much, and would increase my chances of balling it up.
 
steingar said:
Can't disagree with you there Henning. One of the reasons I'm not in a big hurry to movie into a faster aircraft. I'm not that good, don't fly that much, and would increase my chances of balling it up.
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This is probably why I sucked with 180hp. I am so-so with a little putt putt 152 but when I got in a bigger one things were faster.
 
Palmpilot said:
You could land at every airport you pass along the way, and it still wouldn't stop you from logging cross country time as long as at least one of the airports you land at is the required distance from your original point of departure. You could even do pattern work during the flight, or fly way out of your way during the flight, and it would all still count as cross country time. Here's why:

14 CFR 61.1 excerpts:



[emphasis added]

So if you land at ten airports during the flight, and one of them is 50 nm or more from the original point of departure, then the flight "includes a point of landing that was at least a straight-line distance of more than 50 nautical miles from the original point of departure."

Note that there's no stated requirement to take the shortest route, no prohibition on landings at other airports, and no limit on the number of landings made during the flight.

As others have mentioned, one of the sections I left out omits the 50 nm requirement for purposes other than those listed above, for example when applying for an ATP certificate, so some log books include a column for cross country time that is at least 50 nm, and another column for all cross country time regardless of distance.
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Sorry to beat this one to death, but by flight does it have to be one flight without getting out of the plane? Or do I have to just taxi back and take off again? I met a pilot once who said he wanted to see how many airports he could land at in one day. He said his record was sixteen airports and he flies out of Petaluma in a 172.
 
kimberlyanne546 said:
This is probably why I sucked with 180hp. I am so-so with a little putt putt 152 but when I got in a bigger one things were faster.
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Larger aircraft fly differently, way differently. Faster isn't as big an issue as larger.

I don't worry at all about transitioning into a more capable aircraft. I'll bet money I can fly one. My worry is getting behind a more capable and complex aircraft and making a fatal chain of errors. It's happened to way better pilots than me.
 
kimberlyanne546 said:
Good thing I write everything in pencil. Should I go back and change even my student pilot stuff? Don't think I should since my CFI took copies of each page of my log book.

EDIT: I write everything in pen, but totals at bottom in pencil, that's what I meant.
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Don't mess with anything yet. If you are going to addend to what is XC to distingush between those that are required experience flights that are meeting specific training and experience requirements that have mileage qualifications on them are clearly defined from shorter XC flights towards overall XC time.
 
kimberlyanne546 said:
This is probably why I sucked with 180hp. I am so-so with a little putt putt 152 but when I got in a bigger one things were faster.
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Fly something faster, then get back in your 152 and you'll see how slow it is.
 
Henning said:
Don't mess with anything yet. If you are going to addend to what is XC to distingush between those that are required experience flights that are meeting specific training and experience requirements that have mileage qualifications on them are clearly defined from shorter XC flights towards overall XC time.
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No need to modify your logbook. You only need to identify the qualifying flights when you get your signoff for your IA checkride and meeting with the DPE.
 
Jaybird180 said:
Fly something faster, then get back in your 152 and you'll see how slow it is.
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I like slow. But yes, it can be annoying on longer trips. The plus to slow is you get your XC time "quicker" since even a 50nm journey takes an hour.
 
Jaybird180 said:
No need to modify your logbook. You only need to identify the qualifying flights when you get your signoff for your IA checkride and meeting with the DPE.
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Right but should I CHANGE THE WAY I LOG XC GOING FORWARD? I have only put numbers in the XC column in the past when I've gone 50nm. I guess we'll see what the CFI does on Sunday, we're visiting 3-4 total airports, none that far apart.
 
I made a separate column because I knew I was going to get my ATP someday and most employers want to know how much point to point XC, and some have hourly requirements for point to point. Now I just log all my point to point as XC I don't care about the 50nm rule because I don't need to.

Honestly it all depends on what you plan on doing in the future. It just makes it easier to only log XC towards certificates and ratings, because otherwise it really doesn't matter...
 
kimberlyanne546 said:
I like slow. But yes, it can be annoying on longer trips. The plus to slow is you get your XC time "quicker" since even a 50nm journey takes an hour.
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1- They're all slow in cruise. A pilot always looks at the IAS and says "Is that all I get!!!" I did that in everything from Citabria to SR-22G3 GTS
2 - approach and Landing speeds of GA look (round about) the same (see above)
3- Consider running a cost per mile analysis. You may find that a faster airplane may get you the distances faster and cheaper (or very small difference). I made a spreadsheet for my hypotheticals to help me evaluate costs of different platforms.
 
Right but should I CHANGE THE WAY I LOG XC GOING FORWARD? I have only put numbers in the XC column in the past when I've gone 50nm.
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I have always done it the same way you're doing it, Kimberly. I see no need to change unless you are planning on going after the ATP some day. Otherwise, for the IR, the 50 nm applies so you are good without a lot of fiddling. And other than that, who cares?
 
1- They're all slow in cruise. A pilot always looks at the IAS and says "Is that all I get!!!" I did that in everything from Citabria to SR-22G3 GTS
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You're right about that, Jaybird. I'm sure the guys who own and fly G-V's think they are too slow also. All that really matters is "faster horses, younger women, older whiskey and more money!" It is hard for us to be happy with where we are. But if a person is enjoying flying cross country in a Cub, more power to him/her.
 
AirDC said:
We have rudder trim on our 172s. This is a google photo, but it is the knob/slit directly between the trim wheel and fuel selector.

image16492.jpg
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Is that in a 160 or 180hp plane?
 
Slow is relative. When you get a taste of speed, you always think about how it can be faster. I remember flying the Pilatus, seeing 265kts groundspeed on the regular got old, then I just started yelling at the airplane trying to get it to go faster. Same in the Citation 10, .90 mach gets old haha.
 
The 1979 172 I flew today is one of the few that has the factory option for pilot-adjustable rudder trim. It has a 160 HP engine, and except for the color of the panel, it looks just like the photo that AirDC posted, and it has the notches on the control just like what Kimberly described.
 
Got an email from the 99s and will be attending their last pilot proficiency class of 2012 tonight. It is on stall / spin awareness and counts for WINGS. CFI for Sunday said we could do things that count for WINGS as well and maybe even an airplane checkout (why not?)
 
kimberlyanne546 said:
Sorry to beat this one to death, but by flight does it have to be one flight without getting out of the plane? Or do I have to just taxi back and take off again? I met a pilot once who said he wanted to see how many airports he could land at in one day. He said his record was sixteen airports and he flies out of Petaluma in a 172.
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I'm probably not your most authoritative source on that, but I've never heard anyone claim that you can't get out of the aircraft in order for it to count as one flight. Such a requirement would serve no purpose, especially when you consider that you might need to go to a restroom, refuel, or eat during a long flight. Some of the cross country flight requirements are very long. For example, for a commercial certificate, you have to make a flight totalling 300 nm or more, with at least one point of landing being at least 250 nm from the original point of departure.
 
kimberlyanne546 said:
This is probably why I sucked with 180hp. I am so-so with a little putt putt 152 but when I got in a bigger one things were faster.
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The easy way for you to get comfortable in a 180 hp C172 is to fly a 230 hp C182 (with instructor) for a few flights. Then, you'll have the range.

Let me put it this way: I really became a professional cellist once I started teaching many students. Every cello is different, and I have to teach on 3/4, 1/2 and even 1/4 sizes, and still play in tune. Flexibility is your friend.
 
kimberlyanne546 said:
I told him I'm not due for a BFR until August of 2013 but asked if what we will do can "count" as WINGS - the flying WINGS. And he said yes and that he will electronically sign me off on that.

Very cool when a CFI tries to combine many things into a lesson. Perhaps in a few lessons I won't be due until even later than August 2013. Then again, I don't like the two year thing. Maybe I'll "never" run out. Just keep my training up. I think I lack any plan and miss training since you always learn something. There is no structure once you get your cert and low income people like me think "now what do I do".
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Very good points. I got a BFR out of my high performance endorsement/C-182 checkout. Although it wasn't a big deal for me, as I'd only had my PP for six months, I figured why not take advantage of the opportunity.

And while I enjoy just flying around aimlessly, I have decided of late that it makes more sense to actually go places and build the XC time toward the IR requirement, so that if/when I go down that road, it's already out of the way. Plus, every time I go to a new airport (or come within inches of flying into restricted airspace :hairraise:) it expands my boundaries and adds to my comfort level as a low-time pilot, which I don't necessarily get from flying around the local area for the 112th time.
 
I've looked at a few flights that were 40 something miles. I'd replan to a further destination, then go to my real destination. That way I can log the XC hours toward my IR.
 
BrianR said:
Very good points. I got a BFR out of my high performance endorsement/C-182 checkout. Although it wasn't a big deal for me, as I'd only had my PP for six months, I figured why not take advantage of the opportunity.
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I have always found it odd that somebody can be both taught a new aircraft at the exact same time as being tested on their knowledge and ability to fly it safely. Especially if it is done strictly within the minimum. Not saying you got a BFR and a checkout/endorsement in an hour, but I have seen that before.
 
Inverted said:
I have always found it odd that somebody can be both taught a new aircraft at the exact same time as being tested on their knowledge and ability to fly it safely. Especially if it is done strictly within the minimum. Not saying you got a BFR and a checkout/endorsement in an hour, but I have seen that before.
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I've checked out and BFRd on one hour flights a few times over the years. The difference training is mostly ground.
 
Henning said:
I've checked out and BFRd on one hour flights a few times over the years. The difference training is mostly ground.
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152-172 is one thing. But I have had guys want a BFR while they get a "fun flight" in the Pitts or something like that. Hard to see somebody demonstrate proficiency in a plane that they can't handle lol.
 
Inverted said:
152-172 is one thing. But I have had guys want a BFR while they get a "fun flight" in the Pitts or something like that. Hard to see somebody demonstrate proficiency in a plane that they can't handle lol.
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You'd be surprised how fast a good Pitts instructor can get someone to land it. The Pitts is not the demon of legend it is made out to be. It is a nicely balanced smoothly responsive airframe in both S-1 & S-2 models. It does not jump, jitter and bite; it does what you tell it to do. You just have to know how to tell it and it isn't that difficult. If you added a locking tailwheel a Pitts would be a pussycat.
 
Inverted said:
I have always found it odd that somebody can be both taught a new aircraft at the exact same time as being tested on their knowledge and ability to fly it safely. Especially if it is done strictly within the minimum. Not saying you got a BFR and a checkout/endorsement in an hour, but I have seen that before.
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Nah, it was 5+ hours, not a pencil-whip by any means, so I do think it was legit as a flight review.
 
Ok, I'll bite. What's the other one?
Jaybird180 said:
The POH for some 172s recommend a speed range for final. Fly your final at 60kts and forget the range. Trim for 60. When you pull power, do NOT let the speed get away from you.

Make that ONE change and your landings will improve. Let me know how that goes and then I'll give you #2. Promise it will work.
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