WingXPro-Seattle Avionics

M

MauriceAR

Filing Flight Plan
Joined
Nov 30, 2015
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Display Name
Maurice
Hi Pilots,

I'm relatively new on here and wanted to introduce myself. I'm a Private pilot with an instrument rating who flies mostly out of the NY/NJ/Delaware area.

A few years ago, I bought a Lifetime EFB Subscription for wingXPro from Seattle Avionics. Seattle supplies the data to Hilton Software. Now the company is reneging on this deal (it was offered Black Friday a few years ago) and the lifetime subscription is now completely worthless. I was wondering if there were any other pilots on here in the same predicament and what to do about it?

Thanks so much,

Maurice
 
They just offered it again, I thought. How are they backing out on you?
 
It seems like software vendors can pull this crap with impunity. I got burned by a Xavion. Live and learn. Seattle was offering a similar Black Friday deal this year. Good to know it might not be a real lifetime.
 
Was it SA that knocked out RunwayFinder?
 
From WingX last newsletter

Advanced IFR Subscription

Several years ago, WingX Pro7 used third-party data for its moving map and geo-referencing from Seattle Avionics. We then started producing our own VFR Sectionals and IFR Enroute tiles (from FAA charts) and used them exclusively in WingX Pro7. For over a year, we have provided our IAP geo-referencing data in addition to the SA IAP geo-referencing data. Our agreement with them has terminated. We no longer provide their data as an option. This change only affects pilots who purchased multi-year geo-referencing subscriptions from SA. If you did, you are still able to use that subscription in other apps. To ease the transition pain, we'll give you a free one-year Advanced IFR Subscription to WingX Pro7 (we'll need proof of your purchase from SA). The good news is that our Advanced IFR Subscription gives you way more than you've ever had before:
More IAPs geo-referenced (using our advanced techniques)
ChartTouch™ - simply touch on a fix on an IAP to add it to your route or go direct
Show breadcrumbs on the IAP
Show your route on the IAP
And perhaps best, our amazing IAP Routing - another first for WingX Pro7
Summary: All charts (VFR Sectionals, WACs, TACs, IFR Enroutes, IAPs, APDs etc) as well as geo-referencing data and IAP Routing are produced by us (using FAA charts).
 
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So, as the poster replied, Wing X (Hilton) buys its chartdata from Seattle Avionics. Seattle avionics sold, during black friday a few years ago, lifetime subscriptions for the georeference portion of the wingx program. They had a choice of software and I went with wing X. So, for the past few years, I would pay $75 for the year of wingX (basic) and enter the password for the georeference supplied by the lifetime ChartData. WingX had a special section to enter the SA ChartData subscription password.

Now wingX is no longer accepting the ChartData from seattle. Speaking with SA, they shared the proceeds from the sale of the lifetime subscription. WingX had a place where you could enter the SA password to unlock the features.
Now they are saying that the lifetime subscription is worthless. From what I've been told there are others who are affected by this. I'd like to either get a refund for the "lifetime" data or get them to abide by their contractual obligation.

The flying community needs to know that this has happened. Seattle is willing to honor its end of the bargain, but WingX (Hilton) is not.
 
In regards to the free year, this does not cover the costs of the lifetime subscription. So I discourage people from accepting to settle the matter with a free year. Maybe like 3 free years to break even and recoup the costs.

I have made several attempts to contact someone at WingX but they have never returned phone calls or emails.

It also bothers me that WingX is offering FREE software to CFI's but not to longstanding existing customers who have PAID money for this subscription. This is just not right.
 
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LDJones said:
It seems like software vendors can pull this crap with impunity. I got burned by a Xavion. Live and learn. Seattle was offering a similar Black Friday deal this year. Good to know it might not be a real lifetime.
Click to expand...
Same here; I will never purchase another product from Xavion's developer. While most folks gripe about attorneys, seems like the community would be well served by a few class action lawsuits.

This is discouraging. I was actually considering Wingx as a possible EFB that I might use at some point. Scratch that one off for me...
 
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FORANE said:
I was actually considering Wingx as a possible EFB that I might use at some point. Scratch that one off for me...
Click to expand...

WingX is great, I use WingX advanced and really like it. That said I never had to mess with trying to get two products / companies to play nice with each other. I use the IFR charts/sectionals provided with WingX Advanced vs Seattle Avionics.
 
MauriceAR said:
Now they are saying that the lifetime subscription is worthless. From what I've been told there are others who are affected by this. I'd like to either get a refund for the "lifetime" data or get them to abide by their contractual obligation.

The flying community needs to know that this has happened. Seattle is willing to honor its end of the bargain, but WingX (Hilton) is not.
Click to expand...

Can you print out or state verbatim the source of the contractual obligation you claim Hilton software made to use Seattle's Chart Data in WingX Pro forever?
 
>>"To ease the transition pain, we'll give you a free one-year Advanced IFR Subscription to WingX Pro7 (we'll need proof of your purchase from SA). The good news is that our Advanced IFR Subscription gives you way more than you've ever had before"

So OP - you are saying that Hilton should honor a commitment/promise that another company made to you when you purchased a "lifetime" subscription ?

"Lifetime" does not mean your lifetime but the lifetime of the deal,between SA and Hilton and guess what.... It's over !!!

I think Hiltons offer is fine considering he doesn't have to offer anything.
 
MauriceAR said:
It also bothers me that WingX is offering FREE software to CFI's but not to longstanding existing customers who have PAID money for this subscription. This is just not right.
Click to expand...
Hilton and the other vendors who give CFIs either free software of a hefty discount do it as a marketing strategy. Students tend to emulate their instructors and use what their instructors use. Even experienced pilots will turn to a CFI they trust for recommendations or training when they move to an EFB.

Sorry you think that's not right.

My Bias: I have free CFI subscriptions to 3 different EFB apps (and looking at a 4th but really not impressed enough to want to keep it) and a CFI discount to a fourth. The discounted one is my primary EFB that I previously paid full price for and would do so again if the discount disappeared. One of the freebies is a backup I have never had to use in flight but which I recommend regularly. The others I use just enough that I can discuss them as options with pilots and, if they want, train them in their use.
 
Here's a better idea, take you complaint to SA and ask them for prorated $$$$, they are the ones YOU made the deal with !!!

GOOD LUCK
 
Scrabo said:
Here's a better idea, take you complaint to SA and ask them for prorated $$$$, they are the ones YOU made the deal with !!!

GOOD LUCK
Click to expand...
Has the same potential problem there. Maybe worse. Seattle sells the chart data for use in a number of different things. You would also need a contract there to say that all companies that use it now will use it forever.

I've always thought "lifetime subscriptions" were of limited value.
 
MauriceAR said:
In regards to the free year, this does not cover the costs of the lifetime subscription. So I discourage people from accepting to settle the matter with a free year. Maybe like 3 free years to break even and recoup the costs.

I have made several attempts to contact someone at WingX but they have never returned phone calls or emails.

It also bothers me that WingX is offering FREE software to CFI's but not to longstanding existing customers who have PAID money for this subscription. This is just not right.
Click to expand...

:confused: This is business, CFIs using the software sells a lot of students the same software. Basically they are using the cost of the software as the compensation package for the CFIs being their sales force. Since the mandate of all business is to protect the shareholder's best interest, there is nothing 'not right' about this model unless the sales generated from these influence sales don't make expectations. If you want the consumer capititalistic economic system, you have to take the bad with the good. You get all sorts of good crap, you just have to keep paying more and more for it or the economy collapses.
 
Hilton is addressing this over on the Red Board.

Move along....
 
Just an update.

After trying in vain to reach someone senior at Hilton Software for many days, I was extremely pleased to hear back from Dr. Hilton Goldstein shortly after I wrote directly to him. A person on the other board gave me his direct email and said he was a first class person. She was right and Hilton responded immediately. We are now trying to work things out.

For the record, I think that WingX is a great program and, therefore, had purchased a lifetime subscription as I couldn't think that any other program would ever be able to serve my needs better. Over the years, I've contributed by suggesting features and pointing out some issues with the program. Until this incident of the lifetime subscription came up, I was recommending it to friends and other pilots at the airport.

Legally, my lifetime subscription was with SA. Ever since my 1/L contracts class, I do understand contract law better than your average person. You can be assured that I am also addressing the issue with them as well. Of note, I do have screen shots showing WingX as recognizing my subscription as valid until 2098.

While it does make excellent business sense to give CFI's free software, it also makes good business sense to honor one's obligations to its customers rather than cheating them out of money. So Not Cool.

Technically, SA is at fault more than HS here. A lawsuit, as some have suggested privately, is always an option of last resort. It would not be for the greater good of the general aviation community which is financially trying to stay afloat as it is. Companies like SA and Hilton need all their cash to develop new software and move the industry forward, not to fight me in court for breach. We, the customers, will simply choose not to do business with companies who treat us poorly.

I do have high hopes that Hilton and I will be able to work something out and put this behind us. Stay tuned.

M
 
Help me understand why you think there is a breach of the contract between you and SA. As far as I can tell, SA is still providing you a lifetime subscription to their data, they haven't stopped doing that.
 
Judge for yourself...this is what I purchased:

Lifetime WingX ChartData Subscription
$299
Buy Now
Usual annual price: $75.
First 100 orders only.

Our Lifetime WingX ChartData subscription means you never pay for geo-referenced approach plates and airport diagrams again. Note: This ChartData must be used in conjunction with the normal WingX subscription available separately from Hilton Software. US data only.

So the data, and the subscription, is totally unusable. I'd like to know what you would do if your pre-paid 3 year subscription was suddenly rendered worthless.

Again, my intent is not to sue struggling companies that need all their cash to survive and develop products, but to make people aware of what happened so that others don't fall victim to these business practices.
 
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MauriceAR said:
Judge for yourself...this is what I purchased:

Lifetime WingX ChartData Subscription
$299
Buy Now
Usual annual price: $75.
First 100 orders only.

Our Lifetime WingX ChartData subscription means you never pay for geo-referenced approach plates and airport diagrams again. Note: This ChartData must be used in conjunction with the normal WingX subscription available separately from Hilton Software. US data only.

So the data, and the subscription, is totally unusable. I'd like to know what you would do if your pre-paid 3 year subscription was suddenly rendered worthless.

Again, my intent is not to sue struggling companies that need all their cash to survive and develop products, but to make people aware of what happened so that others don't fall victim to these business practices.
Click to expand...

Key words in bold, so it goes back to my original point, how is this Hiltons problem ?

A contact has two parts, an offer and an acceptance. Your post shows the offer SA made and your purchase was the acceptance of that offer.

Actually I am going to get beat up on this but I hope Hilton does nothing, he is under no obligation to honor a contract you entered into with another company. I don't see anywhere in the offer that indicates Hilton was offering this or support this subscription.
 
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Scrabo said:
Help me understand why you think there is a breach of the contract between you and SA. As far as I can tell, SA is still providing you a lifetime subscription to their data, they haven't stopped doing that.
Click to expand...
There might be a reasonable basis for a contract-based (although not necessarily breach of contract) claim against SA if the ChartData subscription was specific to WingX and is not transferable to another app or hardware that uses it. A lot depends on what the complete contract says.

That's the problem with the piecemeal presentation we are seeing. Not enough information for an opinion worth much of anything (especially mine). Makes for a nice social media blitz (I've seen three forums where the OP's complaint has been posted) and discussion based on what little information has been provided, but there's not enough substance to know whether there is a legal claim or not.
 
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Scrabo said:
Actually I am going to get beat up on this but I hope Hilton does nothing, he is under no obligation to honor a contract you entered into with another company. I don't see anywhere in the offer that indicates Hilton was offering this or support this subscription.
Click to expand...
Remember the OP's comment about not liking the fact that Hilton is offering CFIs free subscriptions as a marketing tool? It's that same marketing interest that might lead Hilton to reach some kind of accommodation, whether liable or not.

Me, I hope Hilton does what he thinks is best for Hilton Software and WingX, whatever that happens to be.
 
midlifeflyer said:
Remember the OP's comment about not liking the fact that Hilton is offering CFIs free subscriptions as a marketing tool? It's that same marketing interest that might lead Hilton to reach some kind of accommodation, whether liable or not.

Me, I hope Hilton does what he thinks is best for Hilton Software and WingX, whatever that happens to be.
Click to expand...

The problem is if you do it for one so-called "victim" then you set a precedent that brings out the "me too" people. The exception becomes the rule.

Hiltons original offer when this separation from SA occurred was an fair offer, he DIDN'T have to do it but the OP feels harmed by WingX and WingX should go above and beyond the original published offer.

I don't see that.
 
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Scrabo said:
The problem is if you do it for one so-called "victim" then you set a precedent that brings out the "me too" people. The exception becomes the rule.
Click to expand...
I agree. That's why I said "I hope Hilton does what he thinks is best for Hilton Software and WingX, whatever that happens to be."

Sometimes it's an accommodation. Sometimes it's taking a hard line. We sure don't know enough to say which is best for Hilton. I've made that decision with clients more than once and it is not as simple as it sounds.
 
midlifeflyer said:
Has the same potential problem there. Maybe worse. Seattle sells the chart data for use in a number of different things. You would also need a contract there to say that all companies that use it now will use it forever.

I've always thought "lifetime subscriptions" were of limited value.
Click to expand...

When I got the puppy, I also bought "lifetime training" from a well-known dog training company. I had to ask if the duration was for "his lifetime or mine?"

The dog is nine, and we still go for a "refresher" course every year.
 
Hi. Update.

I am impressed by Hilton's fairness and willingness to listen to my concerns and address this issue. Hilton Software is a great company with a great product and, after seeing the way that Dr. Goldstein has personally addressed this issue, I have no problem recommending the company and its product once again.

I do think that SA has mislead people in offering this lifetime deal. The georeferenced data that Seattle was providing was formatted for WingX and may not be used in any of their other products. It's a total loss for me. But its the principle that counts here more than the dollars I've lost.

My deepest wish, out of all this, is to make fellow aviators and consumers aware of what happened so that they learn from my experience. I also appreciate the efforts and communication with Hilton Software. Kudos to Dr. Goldstein for this!

So, lesson learned, no more lifetime anything for me! Well, except marriage...can't un-ring that bell (not that I'd ever want to).

I also wanted to thank everybody here who have written to me, who offered comments, thoughts, encouraging words of support and valued input. See you all up there and be safe!
 
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