Why you should ALWAYS bring a gun camping

There's nothing you need to understand. I can carry where it's legal to do so, but by law it must be concealed. That means totally concealed, so you can't see it. Nor am I going to mention it. So if we have dinner or go flying, you will never know and I will never bring it up.

... meaning ... what?

Sort of sounds like a willful confusion of probability with possibility. An endorsement of the low-probability course of action because it sometimes succeeds, and a rejection of the high-probability course of action because it sometimes fails. A strategy that works well for rationalizing bad lifestyle choices, and poorly in Vegas.

Or else I'm just not getting your point.
-harry
 
It weighs little yet provides all these benefits. Why not carry?
When I'm out in the middle of nowhere, I'm generally carrying what I've got on my back and schlepping it for miles. I'm going to evaluate everything I carry in terms of what it weighs and how much space it takes up as compared to the value it will provide. A gun weighs too much, takes up too much space, and has far too low a probability of usefulness.

If you're only hauling your crap a short distance from your vehicle, or not carrying much else, then the standards change, but in most circumstances I'm still going to be able to think of something more useful for that weight/space.
-harry
 
During the years that I was a police officer I carried all the time if I left the house to go somewhere, off duty and on duty. Just after I got out of the academy however, I went undercover for a couple of months and I did not carry at all while I was working under cover. I still pack one once in a while. I found that you have to dress right to carry a gun. It is a lot easier in the winter. Since I retired I spend a lot of time in shorts, tee shirts, and flip flops. It is hard to carry a gun dressed that way. It can be done, and I am sure that someone is going to tell me how to do it, but it isn't worth the hassle to me. Last month we drove to Chicago. I generally at least take one with me if I go to Chicago, and I forgot it this time. That shows where I'm at right now. Earlier this month we flew to New York City. I have never taken one with me if I am flying commercially. I know a couple of people who pack them in their check in baggage, but I have never felt the need. The big thing about having a CCW permit is just going out to the range, or something like that. It is nice to just throw it on the floor of the truck, and not have to worry if it is being transported legally.
 
There's nothing you need to understand. I can carry where it's legal to do so, but by law it must be concealed. That means totally concealed, so you can't see it. Nor am I going to mention it. So if we have dinner or go flying, you will never know and I will never bring it up.
You can wear 3 sombreros on your head every day if you like, it doesn't matter to me (as long as you're not sitting in front of me in the movie theater). If the topic comes up, and you begin to espouse the wonders of the three sombrero system, I might, in conversation, challenge some of your rationale, but if you want to be wacky, and the costs of that wackiness are borne entirely by you, that's little more than a source of amusement to me, and I wouldn't do anything to try to eliminate a source of amusement.
-harry
 
... meaning ... what?

Sort of sounds like a willful confusion of probability with possibility. An endorsement of the low-probability course of action because it sometimes succeeds, and a rejection of the high-probability course of action because it sometimes fails. A strategy that works well for rationalizing bad lifestyle choices, and poorly in Vegas.

Or else I'm just not getting your point.
-harry

Jim Fixx

An example that proves that trends do not assure particular results.

Not so hard to understand, and the basis for plenty of reasonable assumptions.
 
When I'm out in the middle of nowhere, I'm generally carrying what I've got on my back and schlepping it for miles. I'm going to evaluate everything I carry in terms of what it weighs and how much space it takes up as compared to the value it will provide. A gun weighs too much, takes up too much space, and has far too low a probability of usefulness.

If you're only hauling your crap a short distance from your vehicle, or not carrying much else, then the standards change, but in most circumstances I'm still going to be able to think of something more useful for that weight/space.
-harry

I'm not one of those lightweight, ounce measuring types. I still use an Army-issue large ruck beacuse it's tough and carries alot.

I also carry an 8 lb tent because I like to be dry and comfortable.

I did plenty of sleeping outside with just an infantry woobie in the rain. That's over.
 
An example that proves that trends do not assure particular results.

Not so hard to understand, and the basis for plenty of reasonable assumptions.
Right, there are no guarantees.

But given that lack of guarantees, does that mean that all choices are equally valid? All equally likely to succeed? If your answer is yes, then we _really_ need to setup a PoA poker night!
-harry
 
Right, there are no guarantees.

But given that lack of guarantees, does that mean that all choices are equally valid? All equally likely to succeed? If your answer is yes, then we _really_ need to setup a PoA poker night!
-harry


All choices have varying levels of risk/reward.

Surprise!!


oh -- and the level of reward and risk cannot be absolutely ascertained prior to the event. Space-time nexus and all that...
 
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All choices have varying levels of risk/reward.

Surprise!!
I agree. I am pretty casual about my sun screen use. I tend to end up with a tan at the end of the summer. I know that I should use sun screen, and I do if I remember, but a lot of time I forget. The first thing to burn each year is my bald head. I have had a few spots burned off me for that reason. However, I just read the other day that exposure to sun has been shown to decrease pancreatic cancer. Who would have thought that?
 
... oh -- and the level of reward and risk cannot be absolutely ascertained prior to the event. Space-time nexus and all that...
And all that has been said on this topic of risk and reward and probabilities and possibilities and the unknowability of the outcome of a specific event, does it accurately describe the mindset you'd take into a casino?
-harry
 
Nor would I quibble with your probability research and analysis, as long as you promise to be there with a solution when the punks pull the blades.

You can wear 3 sombreros on your head every day if you like, it doesn't matter to me (as long as you're not sitting in front of me in the movie theater). If the topic comes up, and you begin to espouse the wonders of the three sombrero system, I might, in conversation, challenge some of your rationale, but if you want to be wacky, and the costs of that wackiness are borne entirely by you, that's little more than a source of amusement to me, and I wouldn't do anything to try to eliminate a source of amusement.
-harry
 
And all that has been said on this topic of risk and reward and probabilities and possibilities and the unknowability of the outcome of a specific event, does it accurately describe the mindset you'd take into a casino?
-harry


Welcome to life. You'll find all sorts of games of chance scattered throughout the premises.

Some of us hedge our bets for various games. Some ccount cards. Some make better "odds," and some are just plain lucky.

I do the best I can with the information and situation.

End of "debate"
 
It seems like a PITA. Question for all you carriers, what do you do with it when you need to enter a building or go someplace where it is not allowed? Do you lock it in your car?

To me it seems like way more trouble than benefit. A gun is something you would need to keep track of all the time. I once lived with a guy who tried to convince me to carry and the harder he tried the more convinced I became that it was not for me. That's not to say that I am opposed to other people carrying. It's just that the attitude of some carriers is that you are an idiot if you decide not to do it yourself.
There aren't that many places around here where it is not allowed. The places it isn't allowed I already know about and I do not do business with them. If I absolutely have no choice and will be going to one of those places I simply don't take the gun.

If you have no other choice and need to go into a place and already have the gun with you then State Patrol recommends you leave it in the car. There is not a place that can prohibit you from having the firearm in the vehicle (in Nebraska).
 
There's nothing you need to understand. I can carry where it's legal to do so, but by law it must be concealed. That means totally concealed, so you can't see it. Nor am I going to mention it. So if we have dinner or go flying, you will never know and I will never bring it up.
+1. I've never had someone notice I'm carrying. It's really not as difficult to carry a pistol as some people tend to think it is.

When I'm out in the middle of nowhere, I'm generally carrying what I've got on my back and schlepping it for miles. I'm going to evaluate everything I carry in terms of what it weighs and how much space it takes up as compared to the value it will provide. A gun weighs too much, takes up too much space, and has far too low a probability of usefulness.
I'm not sure what guns you've seen. But they can pack a lot of punch in a reasonably small package these days. I can carry a Springfield XD .40S&W with 10 rounds in an inside the pants holster all day and it won't bother me the slightest. It's not that heavy or awkward or uncomfortable.
 
So what you're saying is that gun afficionados who would never leave the home without a gun, would also never leave the home without sunscreen, all pursue healthy diets low in fat and sugar and eat all their veggies, and pursue regular regimens of exercise to stay fit and trim and remain heart-healthy, they just don't talk about all that here because there are no misguided fools here who irrationally fail to see the value of those measures, and so there's no reason to bring the topic up?
-harry

Come on harry you know better than that, you cannot say "all" in any context, period. Every group is made up of individuals with differing viewpoints, habits, etc.

The problem is you want to use the "all" factor and then say it fails when one does not fall into that, which we both know is disingenuous.
 
There aren't that many places around here where it is not allowed. The places it isn't allowed I already know about and I do not do business with them.
I guess you won't be doing business with us then...

I wonder how many other companies have in their employee manual that it is a gun-free workplace. I would bet quite a few, not that many people read the employee manual. :rofl:
 
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I think the banks and convenience stores have that same policy. Based on newspaper and TV reports, it doesn't always seem to be working all that well for them. Maybe some people just can't read.

I guess you won't be doing business with us then...

I wonder how many other companies have in their employee manual that it is a gun-free workplace. I would bet quite a few, not that many people read the employee manual. :rofl:
 
I think the banks and convenience stores have that same policy. Based on newspaper and TV reports, it doesn't always seem to be working all that well for them. Maybe some people just can't read.

Don't you understand? Criminals obey laws!
 
Come on harry you know better than that, you cannot say "all" in any context, period. Every group is made up of individuals with differing viewpoints, habits, etc...
Of course, and I'm talking about tendencies.

My quibble isn't that there exists a single enthusiastic gun afficionado who enthusiastically encourages us all to carry a gun everywhere we go, and chides our victim mentality if we ever fail to do so, while drama-queening the unconscionable danger he is exposed to in the few situations where he cannot carry (e.g. while getting an MRI), while he himself ignores many far more plausible risks in his own life.

My quibble is that this sentiment is widespread, that it is common for us to hear about the necessity of being prepared for this improbable risk from those who demonstrate no particular interest in far more probable risks. When I see this tendency, it suggests to me that either they are having some trouble properly judging the risks they face, which is a common problem, or else that their views are colored by something other than practicality.

For a time I was immersed in the world of camera nuts, and by spending too much time around people similarly afflicted, I found myself carrying around all kinds of ridiculous camera gear and making far too much effort to carry it around with me far too much of the time. It's the same phenomenon, boys like their toys, and they're prone to exaggerating their importance in a not wholly rational manner.
-harry
 
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I think the banks and convenience stores have that same policy. Based on newspaper and TV reports, it doesn't always seem to be working all that well for them. Maybe some people just can't read.
I don't think charter companies have suffered from too many armed attacks. :rofl:

Probably the biggest danger, like with most companies is a disgruntled ex-employee.
 
I guess you won't be doing business with us then...
I am pretty sure my checking account prohibits the chance of doing business with you.

There really aren't that many businesses that post no-carry signs in Nebraska. There are a couple gas stations that do but most of them do not. Even one of the local gas station franchises prohibits their stores from posting no-carry signs.

The gas station nearest my house is posted no carry. I don't go there.

Probably the biggest danger, like with most companies is a disgruntled ex-employee.
And the policy will do absolutely *NOTHING* to stop that disgruntled employee other than assure them that there will be no one capable of defending themselves at the location.

I can actually understand a charter company's desire not to have people carrying loaded firearms on their expensive pressurized jets that are operating at FL400. Is this made clear to all passengers? If not I bet some of them are carrying and you just never know.
 
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Of course, and I'm talking about tendencies.

My quibble isn't that there exists a single enthusiastic gun afficionado who enthusiastically encourages us all to carry a gun everywhere we go, and chides our victim mentality if we ever fail to do so, while drama-queening the risks he faces in the few situations where he cannot carry (e.g. while getting an MRI), while he himself ignores many far more plausible risks in his own life.

My quibble is that this sentiment is widespread, that it is common for us to hear about the necessity of being prepared for this improbable risk from those who demonstrate no particular interest in far more probable risks. When I see this tendency, it suggests to me that either they are having some trouble properly judging the risks they face, which is a common problem, or else that their views are colored by something other than practicality.

For a time I was immersed in the world of camera nuts, and by spending too much time around people similarly afflicted, I found myself carrying around all kinds of ridiculous camera gear and making far too much effort to carry it around with me far too much of the time. It's the same phenomenon, boys like their toys, and they're prone to exaggerating their importance in a not wholly rational manner.
-harry

My airplane is more "toy" than any firearm I own.

If you had instead said "tool," I'd agree. For those who have few tools, every problem is a nail.

I prefer to have as many tools at my disposal as is feasible given the situation and various probabilities.

I don't carry on the beach. I do carry at large, public gatherings such as 4th Fireworks over downtown Pittsburgh.

I did last year and had to confront a somewhat drunk guy who tried to run some of us down with his minivan on a public sidewalk (in reverse).

When he exited his vehicle I assured him the better course would be to return to his vehicle and set aside any heroic delusions.

I was carrying, but it remained concealed.

While we were having this tete-a-tete folks had time to clear children, dogs, and stollers from behind his vehicle.

He must have realized this was a no-win situation and he meekly returned to his vehicle muttering things about my heritage.

Whatever.
 
That hasn't been my experience.

I'm not sure how personal experience could be used to determine whether most gun owners treat their weapons as toys. Within one's personal range of observation, the percentage of gun owners we observe doing it is

100 X (# of gun owners we observe doing it) / (# of gun owners within our range of observation)

Since we have no way of knowing which of our acquaintances are gun owners, one can know the numerator, but one is unlikely to know the denominator.

And then of course there's the issue of whether the gun owners within one's range of observation are typical of the general population of gun owners.
 
There really aren't that many businesses that post no-carry signs in Nebraska. There are a couple gas stations that do but most of them do not. Even one of the local gas station franchises prohibits their stores from posting no-carry signs.
There is not a no-carry sign. It's just that employees can't carry inside the office.
And the policy will do absolutely *NOTHING* to stop that disgruntled employee other than assure them that there will be no one capable of defending themselves at the location.
I never said it would. I'm just saying that in my view there really isn't much danger that the people in the building are unarmed.

I can actually understand a charter company's desire not to have people carrying loaded firearms on their expensive pressurized jets that are operating at FL400. Is this made clear to all passengers? If not I bet some of them are carrying and you just never know.
It's an FAR that you can't carry on a 135 flight unless you are a LEO or a crewmember with the approval of the certificate holder. You can have a gun but it needs to be unloaded and in a case with the ammunition stored separately.
 
There is not a no-carry sign. It's just that employees can't carry inside the office.
Understand. Everyone else can then.
It's an FAR that you can't carry on a 135 flight unless you are a LEO or a crewmember with the approval of the certificate holder. You can have a gun but it needs to be unloaded and in a case with the ammunition stored separately.
Makes sense. Is that expressed to clients?
 
And then of course there's the issue of whether the gun owners within one's range of observation are typical of the general population of gun owners.
I would imagine that, like any group, the most memorable are the most idiotic. You won't see the person who takes the time to do things right, train themselves and only pull their weapon when it is a real threat to life moment. Instead you will see the soldier of fortune wannabe who pulls his gun when a guy gets snippy in traffic and yells at the the gun owner. Then Rambo reveals himself to be a moron and everyone takes notice.

We don't remember the guy who did a good job flying and did everything safe. We remember the idiot who was saying ATITAPA on each transmission, landed with a tailwind as another person was taking off and then proceeded to taxi across the grass to get to the fuel pumps before anyone else.
 
Maybe it gets back to being smarter than what you're working with. I don't see or touch the gun for months at a time, because IMO the threat level in the places I spend time doesn't warrant carrying. But when I'm away from home and in circumstances that I can't control or just feel uncomfortable, the effort required to slip the holster in my britches and tote it for a while doesn't seem like too much work. YMMV.



Of course, and I'm talking about tendencies.

My quibble isn't that there exists a single enthusiastic gun afficionado who enthusiastically encourages us all to carry a gun everywhere we go, and chides our victim mentality if we ever fail to do so, while drama-queening the unconscionable danger he is exposed to in the few situations where he cannot carry (e.g. while getting an MRI), while he himself ignores many far more plausible risks in his own life.

My quibble is that this sentiment is widespread, that it is common for us to hear about the necessity of being prepared for this improbable risk from those who demonstrate no particular interest in far more probable risks. When I see this tendency, it suggests to me that either they are having some trouble properly judging the risks they face, which is a common problem, or else that their views are colored by something other than practicality.

For a time I was immersed in the world of camera nuts, and by spending too much time around people similarly afflicted, I found myself carrying around all kinds of ridiculous camera gear and making far too much effort to carry it around with me far too much of the time. It's the same phenomenon, boys like their toys, and they're prone to exaggerating their importance in a not wholly rational manner.
-harry
 
I'm not sure how personal experience could be used to determine whether most gun owners treat their weapons as toys. Within one's personal range of observation, the percentage of gun owners we observe doing it is

100 X (# of gun owners we observe doing it) / (# of gun owners within our range of observation)

Since we have no way of knowing which of our acquaintances are gun owners, one can know the numerator, but one is unlikely to know the denominator.

And then of course there's the issue of whether the gun owners within one's range of observation are typical of the general population of gun owners.

Absolutely. I'm just saying that in my personal experience, I've met far more people that think of guns as toys, rather than as weapons.

Does that hold true in terms of a wider conclusion. Maybe, maybe not. Who knows?
 
Maybe it gets back to being smarter than what you're working with. I don't see or touch the gun for months at a time, because IMO the threat level in the places I spend time doesn't warrant carrying. But when I'm away from home and in circumstances that I can't control or just feel uncomfortable, the effort required to slip the holster in my britches and tote it for a while doesn't seem like too much work. YMMV.
It's a gun blankie!! :D:thumbsup:
 
Absolutely. I'm just saying that in my personal experience, I've met far more people that think of guns as toys, rather than as weapons.

Does that hold true in terms of a wider conclusion. Maybe, maybe not. Who knows?

I've seen a lot of idiots at rifle/pistol ranges. There seem to be much fewer d-bags at archery ranges. Not sure what to make of that...
 
Did you determine the number of them that had CHL permits?

I've seen a lot of idiots at rifle/pistol ranges. There seem to be much fewer d-bags at archery ranges. Not sure what to make of that...
 
Do you know the percentage of them that have CHL permits?

I think there are people who think that guns make them cool, like Rambo or other mythical shoot 'em up heroes.
 
I've seen a lot of idiots at rifle/pistol ranges. There seem to be much fewer d-bags at archery ranges. Not sure what to make of that...


No different for fly fishermen and bait casters.

Fly Fishing places lots of emphasis on catch and release, habitat restoration, etc.

Bait casters typically are happy when they have strong enough line to drag the fish out of the water, across the bank, and up to the lawn chair.
 
My airplane is more "toy" than any firearm I own.

If you had instead said "tool," I'd agree.
Is there a difference?

In my experience, woman are more able to understand the difference between toys and tools, while boys, err, I mean, men, have a tendency to blur the distinction. I know when I bought my first dremel tool, I thought "this is pretty cool", and I started looking around for things to apply it to, and was ultimately disappointed by the lack of opportunities.

Planes work the same way, of course. We work hard to rationalize their utility, when we're really just enamored with them and with flying. We find "jobs" for our planes to do, like take us to places that we probably would never bother to go to if they were a short walk from home.
... I did last year and had to confront a somewhat drunk guy...
Without getting into any single specific instance, I'll note that we see many of these anecdotes, and I'll also note that they tend to be expressed in terms of "had to" and "if not for..." and "otherwise I'd be..." and such. I might be inclined to say the same thing about my dremel tool: "why, if I hadn't had that, then ...", but often the honest answer is "... I'd have done it some other way".
-harry
 
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