Why the deal fell apart. . . .

Discussion in 'Hangar Talk' started by comanchepilot, Nov 21, 2017.

  1. comanchepilot

    comanchepilot En-Route

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    Ok - so I agree to pay someone to ferry the airplane.

    I agreed to pay for 100% of the escrow.

    The deal fell apart when I asked who owned the airplane, and who was signing the sales contract and how to prove the current annual is being paid for by the Seller.

    Here are the facts:

    Airplane advertised as having 12/1 annual. [obviously it cannot yet]

    Airplane advertised as being outside Chicago.

    Airplane advertised as being owned by Seller.

    Spoke with the mechanic and we discussed the squawks and proposed repairs and issues around any deferred maintenance - first call showed there wasn't any.

    True state of facts:

    Airplane is in southern Wisconsin - seller told me the sale is where it is. He's in Florida and not interested in moving the airplane.

    Annual is not yet completed - nor paid for. [I assumed it wasn't signed off yet]

    Seller has given a bill of sale to a broker - and now wants the broker to complete the transaction and will not be the seller any longer. Nor will he sign an agreement making the representations he made in the ad to sell the airplane.

    Seller has removed certain items from the aircraft rather than repair them. [Mooney gear mods] Without disclosing it to me - I found out after a second call to the mechanic.

    What I was willing to do and what I asked:

    Pay the broker to fly the airplane back to 'civilization.' And pay to have it stored.

    I asked the Seller and broker to sign the sales agreement - apparently they have some kind of deal on proceeds - but the broker presently has a bill of sale. I understand straw man deals like this -I've done M&A. But someone needs to make the representations they originally agreed to make - and actually made.

    I asked for Escrow - so I have a title search and proper filing of the Bills of Sale. And verification they are properly completed.

    I asked for a paid receipt from the annual to be deposited into Escrow. How else do I know the bill has been paid? Alternatively, I asked the bill for the annual be paid from escrow.

    I asked about the removed parts - and why the repair is being deferred - I know - but I want to hear the explanation from the Seller as to why he didn't tell me about this after listing these parts as installed on the aircraft.

    What happened:

    Seller said I was being unreasonable - too many questions. Never answered who was the seller, who would sign the agreement. He just wanted to hand out a bill of sale and be done with it - not what we discussed last week.

    So - deal is done. On to another airplane.

    What I told him was:
    I need to protect MY interest in this transaction. I'm happy to send a mechanic out and we can bicker over the what needs to be fixed or not - but I"m satisfied with the aircraft condition from 2000 miles away. However, I need to make sure I get what you are advertising. If you think all these other buyers will miraculously appear and not do a prepurchase inspection - fine. Go ahead. Walk away from me.

    Maybe after 35 years of litigating - I don't trust anybody. You're representing a current annual - is it paid for? No its not.

    Thus I risk a lien on the aircraft if you don't pay the bill. Hence the paid receipt.

    If I buy the airplane from [the broker], you're legally not the seller - your warranties and representations are legally worthless because [the broker] could be responsible.

    Are the AD's all properly complied with? I don't know - your mechanic is on the hook until the next annual. In the agreement.

    I don't play games - either way. I want an enforceable agreement with the person selling the airplane. Not some broker I don't know that you selected and owe money to.

    You owned a business for decades and I'm sure you made sure when you did a deal you get the deal you did.

    Your ad states the aircraft is in Illinois. It's not.

    Your ad states the aircraft has a 12/1/18 annual - its does not yet.

    Your ad states you own the aircraft. You apparently do not.

    So - you want to blame me for this - fine. Blame me. I"m the bad guy.






     
  2. Checkout_my_Six

    Checkout_my_Six Final Approach

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    wow.....TL;dr.
     
  3. comanchepilot

    comanchepilot En-Route

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    Maybe it sucks being a commercial litigator = I know what the legal ramifications are of doing what he wants to do -
     
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  4. mscard88

    mscard88 Touchdown! Greaser!

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    WTF! You're starting another thread on this? Holy cow man!
     
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  5. Tom-D

    Tom-D Taxi to Parking

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    I've walked on deals for a lot less.
     
  6. comanchepilot

    comanchepilot En-Route

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    yeah @mscard88 - it costs so much to do so - but I tolerated the expense. . .

    Maybe it helps someone - maybe not.

    Put me on ignore if it bothers you that much.
     
  7. Everskyward

    Everskyward Administrator Management Council Member

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    Not sure about the other stuff, but "outside Chicago" does not necessarily mean Illinois, since Wisconsin is not that far away...
     
  8. Ted DuPuis

    Ted DuPuis Administrator Management Council Member

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    As you said, you've been a litigator for 35 years and don't trust anyone. Depending on the specifics of the communication, that probably would translate to me as "Buyer who's likely to cause me trouble after the sale is completed" were I the seller. When I'm selling an airplane I want to be done with it. I don't mind answering minor questions and being generally helpful, but I don't want to do that if I'm concerned the buyer is fishing for some reason to sue me.

    My guess is he decided he didn't want to sell the plane to you. Maybe he had something to hide and he was more concerned about you finding it. Maybe he thought he was fully in the right (regardless of whether or not he was) and that you'd cause trouble that he didn't deserve. Can't read his mind, just my thoughts based on what you've typed.
     
  9. Grum.Man

    Grum.Man Pattern Altitude

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    For context are we talking a 45k mooney or a 150k mooney. An N number lookup will tell you who owns the airplane.
     
  10. Lachlan

    Lachlan Pattern Altitude

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    Lawyers generally ruin everything they touch by trying to put enforceable actions into words, or put words into enforceable actions. Someone is gonna lose, either way, no matter what protections and good intentions are promised, promulgated, or stated, expressed, or implied.©️
     
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  11. PaulS

    PaulS Final Approach

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    Lol, certainly a lot more than a disagreement over travel. I'm with you on this, run away. The only caveat for me would be a substantial price cut to accept the stuff you listed plus clear unencumbered title, then maybe it might be worth it, but I doubt that will happen. On the whole, you sound pretty reasonable to me.
     
  12. rtk11

    rtk11 Cleared for Takeoff

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    FWIW, I think you did the right thing given these facts. The deal was not “clean”, and I don’t like that the bill of sale was sent to a broker who did not process the sale. Technically it was “sold” to the broker, who then would sell to you. I wouldn’t want to get into the middle of the ensuing mess if the broker failed to give the proper amount (if any) to the seller.

    The fact that the seller mis-represented the aircraft and removed parts is another red flag.

    Run away... there are other aircraft out there. Spend a bit more but get a plane with clean paperwork / title, documented maintenance, and no (or a lot less) “gotchas” when you do your inspection.
     
  13. PaulS

    PaulS Final Approach

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    You should read it, quite an education on AC purchase for me.
     
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  14. eman1200

    eman1200 Final Approach

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    if it's a K I'm gonna generalize and say at least a 100k
     
  15. comanchepilot

    comanchepilot En-Route

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    Just so its out there - I've been practicing for 32 years next month - and I have never sued anyone personally. . . .

    I have never sued anyone except representing someone else.

    So the tale you're telling is because people are afraid - if you have a good contract in simple language you will never have a problem. Why? Because its already spelled out. You simply look at the contract and see what it says.

    Contracts are not used to make sure the agreement is in writing - contracts should exist to solve future disagreements and to spell out the deal. A good contract that's simple - actually prevents problems.

    That's been my experience.
     
  16. comanchepilot

    comanchepilot En-Route

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    An N number will tell you who owned the aircraft 14 days ago.

    The seller here - in the middle of this transaction - gave his broker a bill of sale - he would not wait 12 days to close this deal.

    I just wanted a clean sale.
     
  17. comanchepilot

    comanchepilot En-Route

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    It's a K model - they're not over 100k any more -

    We're planing on moving to Prescott in a couple years - we're gonna need a turbo to make the trips a little safer.
     
  18. mscard88

    mscard88 Touchdown! Greaser!

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    Nah I don't ignore people. Just wondering why you started another thread that'll just morph into the same content as your first one. Thats all.
     
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  19. Zeldman

    Zeldman Final Approach

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    I would have not only walked away but I would have thrown out matches when I crossed the bridge.
     
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  20. CC268

    CC268 En-Route

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    Ahh you’ll be fine :p I fly my Cherokee 140 to Prescott, Sedona, etc...it makes it off the ground most the time
     
  21. comanchepilot

    comanchepilot En-Route

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    because this is not about me . . . or asking for opinions about me and my conduct or actions. This is a straightforward explanation -
     
  22. comanchepilot

    comanchepilot En-Route

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    :eek::eek::rolleyes:
     
  23. Checkout_my_Six

    Checkout_my_Six Final Approach

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    I've bought 3 and sold two.....I would have cut this cat loose long before this dance. I don't play with lawyercrats well.....
     
  24. Tarheelpilot

    Tarheelpilot Pattern Altitude

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    You have more patience than I do. I have one person on that ignore list.
     
  25. Tarheelpilot

    Tarheelpilot Pattern Altitude

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    To the op, I have to admit I think I was wrong. The first report you gave wouldn’t have run me off but it sounds like you read the guy right.
     
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  26. CC268

    CC268 En-Route

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    Haha no but really I’ve had no issues...but no doubt I would love to have something with some more juice.
     
  27. PaulS

    PaulS Final Approach

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    Fair enough, I've bought and sold a lot of stuff that has needed contracts, generally you have a meeting of the minds, put it to paper, squabble a little more because things tend to come into focus when written down, then continue to a relatively easy close from there. I've never bought an AC, it just fascinates me that there are so many potential pitfalls. Add in a seller who wants to play games I would say forget it too.
     
  28. Ravioli

    Ravioli Final Approach

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    If it is in Racine or someplace right over the southern border I'd advertise as Chicago area since people don't know the towns. If it is in Wausau that's a material difference.
     
  29. paflyer

    paflyer Final Approach

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    Joe, I know people that won't do a deal with an attorney due to the perception that they are litigious by nature and it costs them nothing to sue.

    That said, your spider-sense is correct here. The guy doesn't want to sell, he's hiding something and he hoped he was dealing with a rube, or he's just a putz.
     
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  30. bradg33

    bradg33 Cleared for Takeoff

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    As a less-experienced litigator, I think you did the right thing. As anyone who has done any commercial litigation knows, there's usually a reason when someone doesn't want to reduce their agreements to writing or doesn't want to answer questions about what they're selling. Sure, sometimes they're just grumpy or busy, but many times it's because something isn't being disclosed.
     
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  31. steingar

    steingar Taxi to Parking

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    I said it once but it bears repeating. The seller is in Florida and the airplane in Wisconsin. The second I hear that I run, not walk.
     
  32. Zeldman

    Zeldman Final Approach

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    Is it me..?? :lol::lol::lol:
     
  33. Tarheelpilot

    Tarheelpilot Pattern Altitude

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    Lol. Not even close buddy.
     
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  34. paflyer

    paflyer Final Approach

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    Ha! You should be so lucky!
     
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  35. Checkout_my_Six

    Checkout_my_Six Final Approach

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    I suppose the litigators here wouldn't know how to do a handshake deal? o_O

    I'd tell the guy to get lost as soon as the ten page contract reared it's ugly head.....I don't see anything nefarious or wrong with it.
     
  36. Mtns2Skies

    Mtns2Skies Super Moderator Management Council Member

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    That's along the lines of what I was thinking. In my current aircraft purchasing process the seller and I agreed on a price and I have the pre-buy scheduled, but there is no "purchaser contract". It is worth noting - I knew the owner as a friend of a friend and the aircraft is not and was not on the open market. That being said the two of us trust each other, I'm still doing my due diligence with a pre-buy but it's an overall very simple process. If the pre-buy looks good I'll give him money, he'll give me plane and no paperwork other than FAA paperwork is needed.
     
  37. Tarheelpilot

    Tarheelpilot Pattern Altitude

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    :frown3: I never thought it would be a good thing to be ignored by me... ..
     
  38. SkyDog58

    SkyDog58 Touchdown! Greaser!

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    Old dog w/o new tricks
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    Wisconsin is far more civilized than Chicago.
    :stirpot:


    Other than that minor observation, I’d walk away as well.
     
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  39. Tarheelpilot

    Tarheelpilot Pattern Altitude

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    I don’t know your friends friendy friend, I will tell you that the biggest screw job I’ve ever had involved a “friend” with no written agreement. It was a handshake deal with a guy I thought I could trust. Iwas wrong. It really hurt to be wrong... and not have a written agreement.
     
  40. mscard88

    mscard88 Touchdown! Greaser!

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    It's me isn't it? :(
     
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