Why no IMC at night?

MetalCloud

MetalCloud

Line Up and Wait
Joined
Oct 12, 2015
Messages
739
Display Name
Display name:
MetalCloud
I couldn't sleep last night and got to thinking.... why do we preach no IMC at night? If I'm on my instruments, what difference does it make?

I can see if you have a six pack and ****+y terrain data / situational awareness. (Technology can be your friend). But if you've got, well, more advanced tech on board, it can reduce CFIT accidents right?

Now before you go all POA on me:

I haven't done this.
I don't plan on doing it.
I don't tell people to do it.
I do in fact have AOA on board.
 
MetalCloud said:
I couldn't sleep last night and got to thinking.... why do we preach no IMC at night? If I'm on my instruments, what difference does it make?

I can see if you have a six pack and ****+y terrain data / situational awareness. (Technology can be your friend). But if you've got, well, more advanced tech on board, it can reduce CFIT accidents right?

Now before you go all POA on me:

I haven't done this.
I don't plan on doing it.
I don't tell people to do it.
I do in fact have AOA on board.
Click to expand...

Hmm, I've not had an instrument instructor ever say no IMC at night. Now, when planning a flight and taking IMC and night flying into consideration it raises the risk profile of the flight certainly but I don't think it's a hard a fast rule. If you know your plane can fly the MEA and there's nothing severe (icing, storms, etc.) I wouldn't have any serious issues flying IMC at night. (though, I'd rather have a twin or a BRS just in case...)
 
I fly a few different types but only feel safe flying night IMC with low ceilings in a cirrus. Lots of situational awareness and even the chute haters would like to have one at night when their engine stumbles. Dual batteries and alternators, no vacuum pump probably increases your odds a bit too.
 
Electrical failure at night is problematic and small GA aircraft rarely have good backup systems for that event.

Its colder at night, more ice, heater doesnt keep up, can't see wires etc.

Its not just a matter of being on instruments, its a host of other risks.

There's nothing illegal about it, you can do it if you are qualified and want to. If you do it with decent VFR above the MVA below you, its pretty safe. Something goes wrong, just descend to VFR.
 
Have a twin or a chute? Then fine. If not, no way. It's not about how hard it is if your equipment works, it's what you do when it doesn't. I also won't fly a single over widespread low IMC.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
I'm very conservative. Sometimes too conservative I think. Lol. I have a chute and all the tech trimmings. I'm actually comfortable in IMC. I've just always heard "do night, do IMC, but not both."

Obviously it comes down to planning for weather, terrain, diversions, etc. just like normal. I have been flying more at night lately, and sometimes I like to ask the "why" questions.
 
Night IMC definitely limits your options in case something goes wrong. I don't go out of my way to find IMC at night but I usually won't cancel the flight unless there's widespread low IFR
 
MetalCloud said:
I couldn't sleep last night and got to thinking.... why do we preach no IMC at night? If I'm on my instruments, what difference does it make?

I can see if you have a six pack and ****+y terrain data / situational awareness. (Technology can be your friend). But if you've got, well, more advanced tech on board, it can reduce CFIT accidents right?

Now before you go all POA on me:

I haven't done this.
I don't plan on doing it.
I don't tell people to do it.
I do in fact have AOA on board.
Click to expand...

Think about how you would circle to land. That's where your biggest risk in IMC is, and it's vastly greater at night. You can quite easily pop right back into the clouds without knowing it ahead of time.

There is a smaller, but still elevated, risk with a straight in approach.

In addition, you also have several more mechanisms to induce disorientation, including external lights such as landing lights or strobes.
 
I'm fairly low time IFR wise, but I don't think I would make a blanket statement for no IMC at night. I would definitely be more cautious, and wouldn't go past my personal minimums. But if you can get down to VFR, with a good margin below you, or the destination is VFR, I wouldn't be too concerned with it. Now hard IMC down to minimums at the departure, and destination, is a different story. It's very dependent on the situation at hand.
 
I've done a fair amount of IMC at night, but my personal minimums are a lot more conservative than for daytime IMC. If the night flight only involves flying through a layer to VFR on top and ceilings predicted to be well above minimums at the destination I'll still fly. I want to ensure that the approach to my destination just involves a descent through a layer in actual instrument conditions, followed by the ability to do a visual approach to the destination. If that is the situation, I'll file and go.
 
MetalCloud said:
I couldn't sleep last night and got to thinking.... why do we preach no IMC at night? If I'm on my instruments, what difference does it make?
Click to expand...
What you mean "we?"

I certainly don't do as much night flying, VFR or IFR as I used to, but I did most of my instrument training at night, my first solo IFR flight after getting the ticket was partially at night, and I have a couple of night IFR hours after that.

Like many things in aviation, there are activities and operations that increase our risks. It's important to recognize night flight is one of them. And, like most, it's not about things going smoothly; it's about the availability of options if they don't.

But acceptable risk is an individual choice. I certainly wouldn preach against it.
 
Zeldman said:
I prefer IMC at night since it makes it easier to see the runway at minimums.
Click to expand...

That was my thought too...easier to spot the runway environment that is lit up at night when popping out.

No IMC at night is just another factor in an overall personal minimums risk tolerance. I personally never give it a second thought, but I do a fair amount of night flying...over terrain...sometimes in IMC.
 
gsengle said:
And if you don't realize this, then you don't have enough experience to have scared yourself yet!
Click to expand...

Sigh. Maybe for you kemosabe, but not for everyone. You should be trained and maintain your skills to fly to minimums regardless of day or night. And you should be maintaining your plane to mitigate risk of failure.

I used to fly night IFR, and on a number of occasions I'd fly to minimums. Same risk day or night. I was perfectly comfortable with that. I'd do IPCs for currency, and I maintained the plane exceedingly well.

I sold the plane when I wasn't flying it enough to maintain my skills to a high level of expertise. Aside from the plane ownership cost, the lack of flying a lot of hours per month decreased my risk margins to my limit.

It's a matter of risk management, not risk avoidance. A lot of factors go into risk management - owning the plane, knowing how and when it was maintained, addressing minor issues when they came up, hundreds and hundreds of hours in the same plane, currency, and knowing the local weather conditions all play into risk management.

gsengle said:
Not wrong, but rolling the dice with their life. If you have an engine failure over widespread low IMC in a single with no chute, you're rolling the dice. Tell me I'm wrong :)

You seem defensive. Everyone else I suggest listening to this sobering day low IMC in a single failure...

https://forums.liveatc.net/atcaviat...626d-crash-plainville-ma-2015-06-28/msg65120/

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Click to expand...

Not that you're wrong FOR YOU. Everyone is different. As I said before, it's about risk management - the plane doesn't know whether it's night or day, or whether it's IMC or VMC. I've had static ports busting through a puffy summertime cumulus cloud on an IFR flight.

I was (and still would be) comfortable trading the very slight risk of engine failure in the plane I owned in exchange for the flexibility afforded by flying IMC day and night. That was knowing the maintenance of the plane, having no one else fly it, and keeping myself current including an IPC or equivalent every 6 months. I was flying a couple of hundred hours a year some years.

You may not be comfortable doing it. And that's fine - it's your own risk management calculation. I would never suggest you fly a plane when you acren't comfortable. I would ask you not to transpose on me your own fears & allow me to use my experience and training to make the calculation for myself.

Absolute no-goes for me were icing (non deiced plane with VGs), being ill or very tired, thunderstorms (I had nexrad and stormscope both), or with equipment that didn't "feel" right. YMMV.
 
gsengle said:
Not wrong, but rolling the dice with their life. If you have an engine failure over widespread low IMC in a single with no chute, you're rolling the dice. Tell me I'm wrong :)
Click to expand...
Some would tell you you're rolling the dice with your life if you go up in a single at all, or in any airplane. People have different risk tolerances and it's OK if others have a different ones than yours.
 
Everskyward said:
Some would tell you you're rolling the dice with your life if you go up in a single at all, or in any airplane. People have different risk tolerances and it's OK if others have a different ones than yours.
Click to expand...

There is a significant difference between having a plan for every contingency, and going out on a limb where there is no contingency plan. So it's not only a significant step up in risk, you have just put yourself in a situation where you may be out of options.

I don't knowingly put myself one relatively common mechanical failure from death. Let's be intellectually honest, an engine failure over widespread IMC or a dark night (or heaven forbid both) isn't a good situation. You can't fly an ILS as a glider.... assuming you're even over an airport.

I'm not a huge Cirrus fan, but I get why the chute sells airplanes.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
I've done plenty of night IMC flights, starting in a 6 pack C172 hauling checks at night and in VMC,, up to being a professional pilot. If we operate by "what IFs" we reduce the utility of flying. Flying IMC in a single may be risky to you but as long as one has prepared for the flight nothing wrong with it. Circling to land can be done safely also, but it is a little more involved. Like Zeldman wrote, once you pop out on an approach at night and there's the lights, wonderful.
 
Last edited:
gsengle said:
There is a significant difference between having a plan for every contingency, and going out on a limb where there is no contingency plan. So it's not only a significant step up in risk, you have just put yourself in a situation where you may be out of options.
Click to expand...
If you're talking about engine failure, I think you're kidding yourself if you think you are always in a place to make a successful emergency landing, even if you don't fly at night or in IMC. And as I said before, people make their own risk/reward decisions.
 
gsengle said:
Not wrong, but rolling the dice with their life. If you have an engine failure over widespread low IMC in a single with no chute, you're rolling the dice. Tell me I'm wrong :)

You seem defensive. Everyone else I suggest listening to this sobering day low IMC in a single failure...

https://forums.liveatc.net/atcaviat...626d-crash-plainville-ma-2015-06-28/msg65120/

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Click to expand...
What is defensive about pointing out someone's arrogant statement?
 
Come on guys. IDK why ya'll are arguing about this. Obviously everyone out there has a different set of personal minimums so I wouldn't expect any two people to have an identical answer for the OP, who let's face it, invited answers of any variety. I think you're both right. It's ok to disagree with each other but I honestly didn't see any Arrogance in anyone's reply.

Personally I don't do IMC at night but I'm not yet IFR rated so well it's an easy decision for me;). However, I try to avoid night flight even under good VFR conditions based on the fact that for me PERSONALLY it is an increased risk factor. I always maintain a flexible schedule and night flying isn't something I have to do.
 
I stated my opinion, how's that out of character around here. And I backed it up. So hush.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
gsengle said:
There is a significant difference between having a plan for every contingency, and going out on a limb where there is no contingency plan. So it's not only a significant step up in risk, you have just put yourself in a situation where you may be out of options.

I don't knowingly put myself one relatively common mechanical failure from death. Let's be intellectually honest, an engine failure over widespread IMC or a dark night (or heaven forbid both) isn't a good situation. You can't fly an ILS as a glider.... assuming you're even over an airport.

I'm not a huge Cirrus fan, but I get why the chute sells airplanes.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Click to expand...

What's the difference between night and day when in IMC with low ceilings? Wouldn't you put yourself in a similar risk either way if your worry is not seeing where you can put it down? Is it your contention that no single should ever fly in IMC?

Many would say that stepping foot in a 30 year old prop piston single is "rolling the dice with your life."

Hopefully you do realize that your sweeping generalizations about other's risk tolerance make you seem like you are the "defensive" one.
 
gsengle said:
I stated my opinion, how's that out of character around here. And I backed it up. So hush.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Click to expand...
Hush? Not your place to say that dude. Better watch that arrogant attitude.
 
Clark1961 said:
Hush? Not your place to say that dude. Better watch that arrogant attitude.
Click to expand...

Yea I have noticed his condescending attitudes on a couple of threads lately. He seems to be missing the spirit of these threads as a discussion. All points a view should be welcome but when you say something that could be debatable try to back it up rather than saying "Well I'm right and your wrong'

Kind of sounds like what the FAA would label a "hazardous attitude" if you ask me
 
gsengle said:
My opinion is that there is a significant step function in risk when going over widespread low IMC in a single. I don't know how you can refute that. I've lost two people I know to this. I've also had engine failures in a single. This isn't arrogance it's concern for pilots that don't take the risk seriously.

Lack of respect for others reasoned opinions is also arrogant.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Click to expand...




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
MAKG1 said:
Not being able to see clouds before entering them, especially in the context of taking off or landing, is a major difference.
Click to expand...
Night make it easier to spot the runway when the ceiling and/or visibility is low. The airport lighting helps a lot. Also, it's not necessary to see the exact moment when you enter a cloud if you are paying attention to the instruments.
 
Can we talk about this like adults please?
 
gsengle said:
Lack of respect for others reasoned opinions is also arrogant.
Click to expand...
People are not saying that you should fly at night or in IMC in a single, but you are not willing to give them the same courtesy of having an opinion different than yours and making decisions according to their own risk tolerance. That is what the problem is here...
 
Everskyward said:
People are not saying that you should fly at night or in IMC in a single, but you are not willing to give them the same courtesy of having an opinion different than yours and making decisions according to their own risk tolerance. That is what the problem is here...
Click to expand...

I simply said that doing so in a single with no chute is rolling the dice as when you have an engine failure over widespread low IMC there is little you can do. Is this false?

This statement always bothers people. My choice, which may be a useful thought process for others, take it or leave it, my rule of thumb, is I avoid being in situations with no way out after a single failure.

Tell me what is arrogant in any of that?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
gsengle said:
My opinion is that there is a significant step function in risk when going over widespread low IMC in a single. I don't know how you can refute that. I've lost two people I know to this. This isn't arrogance it's concern for pilots that don't take the risk seriously.

Lack of respect for others reasoned opinions is also arrogant.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Click to expand...

Well I feel that is a much easier to digest statement than "If you don't agree you are wrong." Actually truth be told I don't necessarily disagree with you. I would be thinking long and hard before I fly at night in IMC, but I don't have a ton of experience doing it. However if I am IFR current and proficient, know and trust the plane, and have a good understanding of the wx and terrain and I choose to go I don't necessarily think I am displaying overly hazardous behavior.

Basically I just feel that plenty of others do it regularly and feel comfortable with it so I'm not going to tell them their personal risk tolerance is wrong.
 
It's interesting. My plane is more than capable of said activity. My personal minimums for flying in IMC at night don't preclude me from doing it, but it's just not something I've gone out and done (or had to, but I never "have to" with GA). I've enjoyed the constructive discussions so far.
 
I don't have a hard and fast rule as to no single engine IMC at night, but I recently bought a twin because my personal minimums were tightening up with respect to single engine at night and over widespread IFR. I'll do IMC at night in a single so long as there's good ceilings below. I don't like flying with widespread low ceilings, day or night, but I'm particularly cautious about it at night. It's all risk management.
 
neilw2 said:
Well I feel that is a much easier to digest statement than "If you don't agree you are wrong." Actually truth be told I don't necessarily disagree with you. I would be thinking long and hard before I fly at night in IMC, but I don't have a ton of experience doing it. However if I am IFR current and proficient, know and trust the plane, and have a good understanding of the wx and terrain I don't necessarily think I am displaying overly hazardous behavior.

Basically I just feel that plenty of others do it regularly and feel comfortable with it so I'm not going to tell them their personal risk tolerance is wrong.
Click to expand...

Saying something is high risk or saying that something leaves you no way out in the event of a failure is not saying someone is "wrong". People can assess their own risk, and roll the dice (no way out if engine fails) if they want, clearly.

If I said "wrong" well that would be wrong, but I'm not sure where I did.

Not everything in aviation that is legal in aviation is a good idea. Part 91 gives us a lot of freedom.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
Everskyward said:
Night make it easier to spot the runway when the ceiling and/or visibility is low. The airport lighting helps a lot. Also, it's not necessary to see the exact moment when you enter a cloud if you are paying attention to the instruments.
Click to expand...
Not (usually) necessary, but you do need to know when to turn the strobes off or start a missed approach. A flat ceiling should be fine, but it isn't always flat, and if you can't see it, you won't know. It's the situation where you see the runway environment and then lose it, especially in a circle to land, that the difference shows up. In daytime, you may be able to anticipate that. At night, not likely.

It's not an unmanageable difference, but it is a difference. And it's not small.
 
gsengle said:
I simply said that doing so in a single with no chute is rolling the dice as when you have an engine failure over widespread low IMC there is little you can do. Is this false?

This statement always bothers people. My choice, which may be a useful thought process for others, take it or leave it, my rule of thumb, is I avoid being in situations with no way out after a single failure.

Tell me what is arrogant in any of that?
Click to expand...
If you had stuck with stating how and why you make decisions for yourself you would have been fine, however you went further that that, then challenged people to prove you wrong. When people did that, you told them to "hush".
 
Unless there are CBs around, I don't see why it matters if you can see the clouds or not... you're flying on instruments at that point anyway.

As for at night vs day, I used to fly IMC at night for practice, solo, and I would shy away from it now if presented with the opportunity. One thing I wonder too - how many times has a pilot flown a picture perfect approach to minimums at night to an untowered field, only to forget to key the mike 5 times to turn the runway lights on?
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top